[carlisle slapper]

Voyager has had some beta refinements that've been useful to everyone since the FA, hand swap, high pebble heel etc, Only Paul B repeated it with the same beta as Ben established it. It's main difficulty (IMO how it's kept its grade) is the sharpness of the holds keeping sessions short. It's the second most repeated 8B on grit after the ace which is a good few years older (and which has had v few useful for everyone beta changes). Both are still great efforts and its well worth remembering both got done by Ty when he was ~15.

Stubbs you could literally say X8B has had <10 ascents, impressive! for any UK 8B except keen roof and the ace. Take Isla for example, established in 1998, first 8B in uk, 5 repeats.
Zorev sit (8A) has only seen 1 repeat that i know of and its a good problem only 10mins away. So it's a tricky path to tread.

Andy Earl, Ryan, Ned, Mike Adams and myself all G Upped careless with the old upper foot beta Adam, i have one of your photos of me on the last move that way from the day i did it (same day we dicked about doing all the link ups on it). Whats weird to me is the fact that v few people two? have done both Careless and Voyager, and only one has done the ace, careless and voyager and he's Italian.(unless Micky or Stew have done Careless?) Once you start putting classic problems together numbers soon drop off and that's where things'll change in the future i reckon. No one has done the classic 5 grit 8B stands (ace, voyager, cypher, high fidelity and rhythm) Moony is still the closest, to me that's really impressive.

[turnipturned]

It's the second most repeated 8B on grit after the ace

Not meaning to be pedantic but I think High Fidelity is the second most repeated or is it joint?

[Probes]

Sam D has also done Voyager

[Johnny Brown]

Andy Earl, Ryan, Ned, Mike Adams and myself all G Upped careless with the old upper foot beta Adam,

Ah yeah, I remember, funny how everyone does it straight up now isn't it? And all of who made the start look okay despite being tall. Everyone saying the start is harder for the tall is a) tall and b) hasn't done it. I think 8 of the first ten ascents were by 6 footers. The start is easier for the tall, the top is easier for the tall. Mina is not short. Caff, Bransby etc are short. They have to do several moves just to get to the hard one where the tall start.

[Stubbs]

Thanks Dan(s) I guess this goes to show how much of a big deal 8B on the grit is even after all these years! I bet Riverbed has had more UK ascents!

[Johnny Brown]

I did think the conclusion to Dan's post was going to prove that he is the best.

I think what's interesting about Careless is not how height dependent it is but how in the last two years it's gone from being the preserve of the very accomplished all-rounders to being a standard tick for the youths. I suspect the modern wall style is much more useful for this kind of climbing than the old school board style.

[Fiend]

No one has done the classic 5 grit 8B stands (ace, voyager, cypher, high fidelity and rhythm) Moony is still the closest, to me that's really impressive.

WTF are you waiting for then??

Good post, they are all stunning looking problems.

[a dense loner]

That says more about fickle conditions to me Stubbs.

And just to point out that the Italian whose a done all 3 lived in dans house for 3 mths one winter then someone else's for 2 mths or so the following winter. Obviously he's a beast I'm just pointing out these weren't 10 minute, soft, affairs

[carlisle slapper]

Yep good point! i'm pretty sure he was considered a regular at the rising sun at one point too.

[Johnny Brown]

That's a tick to be proud of.

[Will Hunt]

Voyager has had some beta refinements that've been useful to everyone since the FA, hand swap, high pebble heel etc, Only Paul B repeated it with the same beta as Ben established it. It's main difficulty (IMO how it's kept its grade) is the sharpness of the holds keeping sessions short. It's the second most repeated 8B on grit after the ace which is a good few years older (and which has had v few useful for everyone beta changes). Both are still great efforts and its well worth remembering both got done by Ty when he was ~15.

Stubbs you could literally say X8B has had <10 ascents, impressive! for any UK 8B except keen roof and the ace. Take Isla for example, established in 1998, first 8B in uk, 5 repeats.
Zorev sit (8A) has only seen 1 repeat that i know of and its a good problem only 10mins away. So it's a tricky path to tread.

Andy Earl, Ryan, Ned, Mike Adams and myself all G Upped careless with the old upper foot beta Adam, i have one of your photos of me on the last move that way from the day i did it (same day we dicked about doing all the link ups on it). Whats weird to me is the fact that v few people two? have done both Careless and Voyager, and only one has done the ace, careless and voyager and he's Italian.(unless Micky or Stew have done Careless?) Once you start putting classic problems together numbers soon drop off and that's where things'll change in the future i reckon. No one has done the classic 5 grit 8B stands (ace, voyager, cypher, high fidelity and rhythm) Moony is still the closest, to me that's really impressive.

Isn't Rhythm a sit? Or a crouch?

Anyway. JB, please can you put us all out of our misery and tell us what is the correct way to climb Careless Torque and The Ace if the full grade for each problem is to be claimed?

[dave]

Andy Earl, Ryan, Ned, Mike Adams and myself all G Upped careless with the old upper foot beta Adam,

Ah yeah, I remember, funny how everyone does it straight up now isn't it? And all of who made the start look okay despite being tall. Everyone saying the start is harder for the tall is a) tall and b) hasn't done it.

Only if you chose to ignore Mina.

[Johnny Brown]

I think she's just massaging her man's ego there Dave.

[Nigel]

Clearly being tall / short has nothing to do with it, as I have seen the start lapped with consummate ease by both midgets (Caff) and giants (Ryan, Ned). I would argue that its hardest if you are totally average, lets say 5'9". And a half.

[Johnny Brown]

I think that's about Mina's height though Nige. And I don't remember Caff ever making it look easy, though Ned and Mick yes.

As for the grade, for me the start is at least a grade and a half harder than Brad Pit, if not two grades. There is no correct way Will, but it is interesting how the sequences evolve.

[shark]

I think that's about Mina's height though Nige.

I very much doubt it.

Monkeyboy?

[Johnny Brown]

Maybe Dave can measure her and put us out of our misery. I see her height is a popular search on google.

[Paul B]

Moony is still the closest, to me that's really impressive.

...and lets not forget the sit in this equation!

Hamish said he thought The Ace was harder. He has had multiple sessions on that and Voyager took him just two very short sessions.

The ace is going to feel harder.
a) because the hard climbing is somewhat distilled.
b) because it IS harder.

That said, the holds are improving on the Joker and IMO the hard part of the ace is getting set up for the joker properly.

[Johnny Brown]

Ace is a weird one. I have seen several strong climbers who can't quite stick the top, but it doesn't make any difference whether they start as for the Ace or as for The Joker.

I'm not convinced the holds have improved significantly. There are more strong climbers about though.

[Duma]

http://www.acefilmandphotography.com/adventure-blog/2015/1/4/voyager-and-the-ace
Our very own baldy took some lovely snaps of Hamish, James Squire, amd Nathan phillips yesterday.

[tc]

Sam D has also done Voyager

Who?

[Wood FT]

Blackpool Sam I presume?

[Paul B]

I'm not convinced the holds have improved significantly.

Lets agree to disagree on this one.

[Johnny Brown]

Depends on your definition of significant. There is a divot for your left index finger that wasn't there ten years back. Do you think it changes the grade?

[Probes]

Blackpool Sam I presume?

Yeah