[Muenchener]

I had an interesting discussion with one of my regular climbing partners at the wall today. I have known for a long time that one of my biggest problems climbing is wasting energy through hesitancy. Even indoors where the next move is usually pretty obvious, if I don't like the look of it I'll spend ages hanging around chalking repeatedly, making futile attempts to shake out even if I'm not at a decent rest, looking for alternative sequences etc. .... until I'm so pumped I either fall off or - more likely - just give up and rest on the rope.

This probably does a lot to explain the fact that, according to my ocd training spreadsheet, I have an 80% success rate on 6b & above slabs and a 20% success rate on steep 6b & above.

"Endurance is a skill", I remember once reading in a forum posting somewhere by Serpico, and it's pretty clear doing physical endurance training so that I can faff about even longer before I burn out is not the answer here. Instead I need a way to break out of the faffing mould.

What my partner suggested, and I intend to try for a while, is to practice climbing quickly & decisively on easier routes. A full number grade or so below my onsight (attempt) limit: no thinking about sequences, no or minimal chalking & shaking out, just upwards progress without pausing or hesitating.

What do people think? Likely to help? Other ideas?

[tesla]

What exactly do you mean by "if I don't like the look of it [the move]"?

Although you don't mention it in your post, are you in fact just worried about / scared of taking a fall?

Alternatively, if it's just anxiety about blowing an onsight, maybe try to get better at reading sequences from the ground so you can be more confident that you've likely got it right first time and don't hang around as much second guessing yourself? Maybe an exercise as you describe in your post but actually thinking about the sequence beforehand might help.

I find it's easy to 'flow' on easy routes with obvious sequences, but if I'm climbing anywhere near my limit and fail to sequence it properly I'm highly likely to fall off it.

[Muenchener]

Although you don't mention it in your post, are you in fact just worried about / scared of taking a fall?

Probably, yes.

[tesla]

Taking practice falls is good for getting past that and climbing more confidently. If you're scared of falling off, you're never going to be giving it 100% when you're climbing, and will be much more likely to hesitate, faff etc. Dave Mac has a nice section about this in his 9 out of 10 book. The quick summary is:

- practice taking lead falls until you're not bothered about falling off any more, which means including this in pretty much every session to some degree.
- start with really small falls (e.g. clip at waist height) and build up steadily to bigger falls.
- your goal should be to get to the point where you can focus 100% on the climbing, and fall off only because you've climbed to failure / blown a move etc rather than sagging onto the rope / dogging / taking etc.
- Ultimately, you could make it part of each route you climb - don't clip the anchors and just fall off instead.

I remember Falling Down introducing me to this idea years ago at Marple Wall. I'd been climbing for at least 15 years at that point and I still found it really helped me, so if you're not doing it already you definitely should.

[tesla]

I remember Falling Down introducing me to this idea

No pun intended.

[Muenchener]

Thanks. Telling me what I need but don't want to hear. Reading Dave Mac's book (which I have) and actually doing something about it (which I haven't) are two different things.

Marple Wall. Ah, memories. Is it still going? Although I used to go to Broughton & Salford Uni rather more regularly.

[tesla]

Sounds like material for a good new year's resolution to me =)

Was blanking on the name for a bit, but http://www.roperace.co.uk/ seems to still be going...

[ghisino]

+1 for practice falls.
if you can it is best to fall while moving upwards, a good way to do it is dynoing to touch a blank spot.

the speed climbing thing is good to start playing with the rhythm of your climbing but it will be useless if you are still scared of falling off.
Speeding on easy ground is a good skill for alpine multipitches, but on sport single pitches you usually want to speed the hard bits that get you pumped, not the easy ones...

while you do your practice falls, a good variation would be to do the speed climbing thing on towrope, and on steady pumpy routes above your limit, where you will 99% fall off. Best done on a "stupid" route rather than a techy tricky one.
The objective is to keep moving upwards when the pump sets in, and to fall while attempting a move.
Make a conscious effort to climb as smooth and dynamic as possible, even on the hard bits. Don't over grip and get more static in an attempt to be 100% sure you'll stick it.

the last step, when you start being comfy enough with falls, is to do the same on lead. Eg, if your best OS is 6b+, you should pick a 6c+ or 7a and aim to get as high as possible, knowing that you will fall off anyway...as if it was a lead comp.

the last one is probably best done indoors or when climbing with a stronger partner who will finish the route and strip the draws.
Also, an indoor wall providing ropes is obviously better overall as you don't wear your own rope.

[Wipey Why]

Fall training is a very

[Muenchener]

Started with the chucking myself off training today. Quite untraumatic; almost enjoyable after I got over that always surprising initial supririse at how far one goes with a nice soft catch. Five falls, two of them over the lip of a roof which - quite irrationally I know - is generally  the situation in which I'm most nervous.

[joel182]

Started with the chucking myself off training today. Quite untraumatic; almost enjoyable after I got over that always surprising initial supririse at how far one goes with a nice soft catch. Five falls, two of them over the lip of a roof which - quite irrationally I know - is generally  the situation in which I'm most nervous.

Have you tried doing the clip drop technique? I used this method with a friend of mine and was impressed at how effective it was.
From a point where you feel comfortable (2nd or 3rd bolt?), clip and then let go of the wall. Doesn't have to be a long fall. Then get back on, climb up to the next bolt and repeat all the way to the top.
Not clipping the chains at the top is great too.

[Muenchener]

Have you tried doing the clip drop technique?

I discovered that in the right situation - flat panels, clean drop - I'm already ok with going from a bit above the bolt.

But there's a particular sector at my local wall where I'm especially shy of falling. It's a bit higher than the average indoor wall - 17 metres - a bit dimly lit & foreboding at the top in the evening when I'm usually there, and has moulded/featured panels where it feels like there might be something to hit on the way down. Although it's predominantly overhanging so in reality probably not. One way to find out ...

Excellent! Now I have a plan: clip drop on that sector on my next visit.

[joel182]

Have you tried doing the clip drop technique?

I discovered that in the right situation - flat panels, clean drop - I'm already ok with going from a bit above the bolt.

But there's a particular sector at my local wall where I'm especially shy of falling. It's a bit higher than the average indoor wall - 17 metres - a bit dimly lit & foreboding at the top in the evening when I'm usually there, and has moulded/featured panels where it feels like there might be something to hit on the way down. Although it's predominantly overhanging so in reality probably not. One way to find out ...

Excellent! Now I have a plan: clip drop on that sector on my next visit.

Wondered if you'd tried the sector you were scared with yet? I've found that I tend to be fairly unafraid on the small lead walls at my wall, but the large ones start scaring me. I find being about waist high with the bolt I've got to clip pretty scary, and have been working on that.

I've noticed that doing fall practice seems to be a really unusual thing amongst people I climb with, and I'm not really sure what - if anything - to do about that. I think it would be a good thing if it was much more common to see people taking regular falls at climbing walls.

[Muenchener]

Wondered if you'd tried the sector you were scared with yet? I've found that I tend to be fairly unafraid on the small lead walls at my wall, but the large ones start scaring me.

Yes I did. Took three falls from around mid-height, but found I still wasn't (yet) willing to take any more from near the top, and was still scared when I was having difficulties on a route in the same sector later on in the evening. But it's a start.

I've noticed that doing fall practice seems to be a really unusual thing amongst people I climb with, and I'm not really sure what - if anything - to do about that. I think it would be a good thing if it was much more common to see people taking regular falls at climbing walls.

I've noticed that it turns a lot of heads when I do it too. The DAV runs regular belay/fall training sessions at my local walls, and lots of people attend them, but few seem to do much/any systematic practice outside of those sessions.

[joel182]

Wondered if you'd tried the sector you were scared with yet? I've found that I tend to be fairly unafraid on the small lead walls at my wall, but the large ones start scaring me.

Yes I did. Took three falls from around mid-height, but found I still wasn't (yet) willing to take any more from near the top, and was still scared when I was having difficulties on a route in the same sector later on in the evening. But it's a start.

That's great! I think you might find it helpful if you could increase the number of falls you take in a session - maybe as part of your warm up? You could maybe try it on an easy route on the sector you're scared of (or if there are no easy routes, then combine two routes together)?

I've noticed that doing fall practice seems to be a really unusual thing amongst people I climb with, and I'm not really sure what - if anything - to do about that. I think it would be a good thing if it was much more common to see people taking regular falls at climbing walls.

I've noticed that it turns a lot of heads when I do it too. The DAV runs regular belay/fall training sessions at my local walls, and lots of people attend them, but few seem to do much/any systematic practice outside of those sessions.

I hadn't really considered it actually, but I think people don't see the importance of learning to catch falls as a belayer. I was climbing with someone who had belayed a leader before, but needed some refreshment, and as part of that I took a couple of falls. First from well below the height of my clip, and then getting slightly higher. Other people seemed to think this was very odd/dangerous - but I can't see how I can trust him when I'm at the top if he can't catch me when I'm a reasonably safe distance from the ground.

[MJC]

I've noticed that it turns a lot of heads when I do it too. The DAV runs regular belay/fall training sessions at my local walls, and lots of people attend them, but few seem to do much/any systematic practice outside of those sessions.

Yeah I'm the only person I've ever met that does it, or even accepts that there is any value in it. Personally what made me push past the fear of falling enough to take falls while climbing at my absolute limit (no matter how comfortable i was with practice falls, it's still completely different from falling when you're not in control, for me at least) was to climb something that i cared more about completing than i did about being not extremely outside of my comfort zone. For me this was my first 7a, and it meant a lot to me. This meant guaranteed falling off in the most psychologically uncomfortable manner possible, it had to, because of how hard it was. It was the first time i managed to push myself far enough to fall off while being at my absolute limit (and as importantly, actually allowing myself to climb at my limit to begin with) and going for a hold. Since then my comfort with falling off like that has rapidly increased and I am comfortable falling off anywhere where it's safe to do so. It's still really scary, but the difference is I'm not being held back.
The other technique mentioned of climbing up something you know you will fall off is essentially the same thing but it wouldn't have worked as well for me because i wouldn't have wanted to do it enough to bring myself to climb at my absolute limit. I would have always backed off sooner, at least for a long time.

[Muenchener]

no matter how comfortable i was with practice falls, it's still completely different from falling when you're not in control, for me at least

Yeah. I remember reading something to the same effect on Mark McGowan's coaching blog: he reckons the carry-over (or training specificity) from deliberately chucking oneself off a climbing wall, to really going a muerte on a route, is limited.

The rare occasions when I take real falls tend to be when I misread a sequence on a technical/tricky route, rather than because I've redlined it to the point of inevitability on something pumpy. Otoh when I do fall off I always find myself thinking afterwards it was surprisingly untraumatic. Hopefully it will cease to be surprising at some point.

[duncan]

I've noticed that doing fall practice seems to be a really unusual thing amongst people I climb with, and I'm not really sure what - if anything - to do about that. I think it would be a good thing if it was much more common to see people taking regular falls at climbing walls.

I see it very rarely and when I have practised falling it certainly seems to attract attention.  Strange, as it is clearly something that nearly everyone I see climbing, including some very good people, would benefit from a great deal.

Yeah. I remember reading something to the same effect on Mark McGowan's coaching blog: he reckons the carry-over (or training specificity) from deliberately chucking oneself off a climbing wall, to really going a muerte on a route, is limited.

I've found it carries-over: even small amounts of indoor fall-training helps me relax on lead and go for it a little more, if not exactly a muerte . 

[MJC]

Yeah it definitely helps a lot even if it's just at the end of each warm up route, or even once! I have to do it to not be really unrelaxed. My point wasn't that it has no use, (i think it's essential) just that it's only half the battle.

[Muenchener]

I've found it carries-over: even small amounts of indoor fall-training helps me relax on lead and go for it a little more, if not exactly a muerte .

Probably just as well on some of the things you get up to: a muerte might be all too literal in places like Tintagel or Carn Gowla.