UKBouldering.com

the shizzle => bouldering => beta - bouldering => Topic started by: The Sausage on March 28, 2008, 11:22:31 am

Title: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: The Sausage on March 28, 2008, 11:22:31 am

I had a bit of a go on this yesterday... I was starting on the rail with my right heel on the good bit, rocking up with my right to the lower part of the press gaston (as a law-away, obviously), changing my right heel to a toe and locking up to the shitty under-cling with my left to join the stand up.

Does this sound about right? I can do the moves, but it seems awfully hard.

What about foot beta for Tsunami? Do you span up to the crimp then swing your heel up to the rail?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: (woz) on March 28, 2008, 11:35:25 am

I use a toe on the same hold, instead of a heel, for the move out left, then get left foot on a tiny edge, then slap LH to jug. I think the moon video demonstrates this quite well. For tsunami it depends on whether you are going for matching the sloper, or using the pocket. Either way, once both hands are at that level you can swing heel up, or use a toe edge lower down.

You should have set James and Stubbs on beta duty, and then casually stepped in for the flash. Still, you live and learn.

hope this helps...

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy Harris on March 28, 2008, 11:38:35 am

Hi Joe,
4 variants to Bigger splash direct.
1. stand up RH Press gaston, LH high undercut -7b/7b+
2. crouch from flat edge & pocket -7c
3. low right start from slot -hard 7c
4. low left from slot (Tsunami) -8a (easier if you use pocket and don't match sloper)

your foot sequence is right but for me when you have your right toe on the left foot position is crucial to make the move to the u'cut. Basically I flag under on one of 2 obvious edges with the left foot to stabilise the position. It is pully and hard of the move. Imagine if you had to do this after 10m of climbing (hmm, that gives me an idea. Maybe I could excavate downwards and create a bespoke hard route.

For the last bit you can use the original foot sequence on the tiny nubs or the newer holds on the rail as well.

I just read someone eliminating the u'cut. Matt Birch used to do this surely you gotta pull on that little u'cut. It's the essence of Rubicon ;)

enjoy

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on March 28, 2008, 11:45:39 am

Quote from: Andy Harris on March 28, 2008, 11:38:35 am

1. stand up RH Press gaston, LH high undercut -7b/7b+

for what its worth I think this is way harder than the press.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: nathan wind on March 28, 2008, 11:49:20 am

tried the low right version of this (from the slot) earlier this year and thought it was nails, did all the moves but couldn't link it.. seem to remember latching the rh layaway from the rail seemed to be a question of timing more than anything else, almost knacky... to get the lh sidepull I put my toe on the very edge of the foothold where you get the heel toe.. seemed to make a massive difference..    

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: The Sausage on March 28, 2008, 01:42:24 pm

Thanks all. It's a brilliant set of moves so I'm glad I was on the right track - it's awful when you work out a great sequence only to find it's totally defunct. I thought about the prospect of matching the press gaston and going straight up from there. Looks amazing.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Kingy on March 28, 2008, 02:35:57 pm

Tsunami is an amazing problem, I found that after matching the sloper (left foot backstepping the low pocket, RF on the tiny fin), I put my outside LF on a small nubbin higher up while my RF was still in contact with the fin. I then put my heel straight up on the good bit of the rail. Put it on the extreme left as it then 'rolls' rightwards into the best bit of the hold. Then get a heel toe cam, its really bomber, honest! Reach up to the sidepull with RH - make sure you get the best bit, fingers in the right dimples, as this makes a massive difference. Then put outside LF on one of the flagging edges that Andy mentions, I found this crucial. BTW I  could not do the move with the toe, i had to use the heel toe cam. Once in a stable position, reach undercut, LF on polished foothold used on standup. For last move, I found going for the flat rightmost bit of the ledge better than the 'jug' further left as it is easier to hang even when your feet cut loose as it does not slope leftwards. I had to really go for this last move...I think it is a little easier if you have your toe on.

Have the mats well placed to protect against the jagged rocks below, I twatted my elbow in a fall straight down off the last move and badly bruised the bone, OK now tho. Enjoy!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Kingy on March 28, 2008, 02:42:37 pm

One final point, try just leaving the heel toe cam in place for the last move, it pulls you in quite well and it may take too much energy to change it to a toe - u may as well just go for the jug straight away.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: nathan wind on March 28, 2008, 02:45:32 pm

Quote from: Kingy on March 28, 2008, 02:35:57 pm

Have the mats well placed to protect against the jagged rocks below, I twatted my elbow in a fall straight down off the last move and badly bruised the bone, OK now tho. Enjoy!

I can second that, took an absolutely unexpected backslapping flyer off that final move once.. nearly ended up in the lake!! I think its something to do with a combination of all the energy you put into psyching for the final move and the shiny shiny holds...

Great problems though..

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: The Sausage on March 28, 2008, 02:48:54 pm

Nice one Ted... I didn't realise you'd done Tsunami. Did you try/do staminaband last year? will no doubt see you soon at some god-forsaken peak district crimp-hole.

...i've been spotting someone who's left hand blew out of the undercling going for the top move... he flew backwards horizontally and nearly knocked me into the lake.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Kingy on March 28, 2008, 03:09:09 pm

Cheers man made a huge difference doing it in baltic Febraury temps, it was a touch bleak at times tho. Was there yesterday afternoon in the full on sun and couldn't even begin to think about pulling on them crimps!!

Its a spicy move for sure that last one, have those A2 pulleys taped!! No joy on Staminaband yet, have been on it already this year tho, got to last move which is depressingly as hard as ever... Its more like a route that one I reckon!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy B on March 28, 2008, 04:18:30 pm

On the last move of Tsunami I moved my right foot in to the sloper, and rocked on to this to go for the jug with my right hand.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: nathan wind on April 12, 2008, 11:39:32 am

was back here last satdy, first time in ages and had another go at the low rh version of a bigger splash direct, if anything just to remember the moves..

the crux for me is sticking the rh layaway / sidepull.. would be interested to know how other people do this move? I have my left hand in the pocket, right hand in the part of the rail where the heel would go for tsunami etc... feet on small edges..  (have a photo somewhere which I'll try and post)... does this sound right? or would it be better to somehow try and get the heel / toe in? sticking the rh sidepull / layaway seems a bit random with the method I've been using..

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: (woz) on April 12, 2008, 04:30:58 pm

Keep going along the rail till LH sloper/RH pocket - then right heel up and you know the rest.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy Harris on April 12, 2008, 07:33:14 pm

Nathan, I reach the sidepull with my LH in the pocket as you said. It's quite agressive so I guess it comes down to if you like that move or can sacrifice it aginst more moves.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: nathan wind on April 13, 2008, 12:00:00 pm

cheers guys! will have to try the new beta soon, or just pull harder!! seem to remember going for Andy's method as it meant I could latch the rh hold, stick my toe on the edge of the rail and then go straight for the left sidepull without messing about too much.. anyway, keen to get back! was hoping to get down there today but its pissing down here (huddersfield), so will hopefully get over in the week...

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: (woz) on April 13, 2008, 04:12:22 pm

Was mint conditions there all today... ;)

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: nathan wind on April 13, 2008, 04:43:13 pm

arrrggghh! wish I'd known!! Dan (Kennard) and I were gonna come down but just thought it would be soaked! bit gutted really! just got back from my first visit to the wall in months!!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy Harris on April 29, 2008, 08:54:33 am

Had a nice session bouldering at Rubicon the other night and thought I’d create a new graded list with some grade changes and link ups. Not included the knealing starts as they are all superceded by the low right variants which are better but don’t add to the grade.

Let’s here what you think + anything I’ve missed.

Name                                              Grade
Bigger Splash (jump start)                    7a+
Bigger Tail                                 7a+
Kudos easy                                 7b
Hotfun traverse                                 7b
Kudos hard                                 7b+
Bigger Splash direct (LH u’cut)       7b+
The Press                                 7b+
Hotfun hard (ss)                                 7c
Twin Pinches to jug                    7c
Low right Bigger Splash Direct       7c
Problem left of Kudos (stand start)       7c/7c+
Low right Press                                 7c+
Tsunami with pocket                    7c+
Tsunami sloper match                    8a
Low left Press                                 8a+

Link ups   
Press (or BSD) + reverse Hotfun trav + Kudos hard   7c+/8a
Low right Press + above                    8a+
Tsunami + above                                 8a+
Low left Press + above                    8a+/8b

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on April 29, 2008, 09:28:24 am

nice one andy. couple of questions:

Bigger Splash (jump start) - what is this? i don't get how a jumpstart would help on bigger splash.

Hotfun traverse - is this what everyone else calls kudos traverse?

Hotfun hard (ss) - is this the kudos sitter?

Isn't "Tsunami with pocket" just low left start to BSD without any rules, and Tsunami being an eliminate thereon? I know Tsunami started out just being the low left with a specific name, but these days people seem to get shirty about the pocket use, and the low left with no rules still looks a perfectly good logical problem which aught not to just be refered to as a cheating version of an eliminate, so treating them (and naming them) seperate might make sense. maybe?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Stubbs on April 29, 2008, 09:34:54 am

If you weren't 6.5 foot tall you'd understand the jump start bit  ;D

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on April 29, 2008, 09:42:27 am

I'm not, and I still don't. No-one i've ever seen do it has jumpstarted - what are you jumping to?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Stubbs on April 29, 2008, 10:07:06 am

My bad, it's bigger tail that you have to jump for innit.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Bonjoy on April 29, 2008, 10:19:59 am

I think Andy meant - A Bigger Tail (jump start)

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy Harris on April 29, 2008, 11:05:49 am

Your right Bonjoy I was getting my Splash's & Tail's mixed up.

Bigger tail (jump start to edges then direct up to jug via horrible pocket)

Bigger Splash is sidepulls on right.

Hotfun traverse / Kudos traverse same thing

Hotfun Hard (ss) is sit start to hotfun but finishing rock over way.

I will also add Original Hotfun (7c) which starts LH on 3 finger pocket, RH to gaston, rockover on poor smear left of jug rail (basically the jug rail didn't use to exist and this problem is a lot harder than using the jug).

See what you're getting at with Tsunami. A few bits of info
-the orignal point of this problem was making it hard not the easiest way up and is hence eliminate
-this is why we wanted to match sloper & do the u'cut move as opposed to going again to jug with LH     
-using the pocket does make that problem half a grade easier
-Tsunami is a cool name and in realty the problem had probably been done before this but we'll never know
-holds on this area of wall have morphed over the years (particulalry the square hold & sloper) making problems using them a bit easier and making the Tsunami heel toe possible where previously you had to traverse the rail and climb into it as per the low right start
- I think Tsunami should remain eliminate at 8a and the same problem using any holds / sequence should be "easy Tsunami" in the typical Peak nomenclature or maybe "King Wave" at 7c+

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on April 29, 2008, 12:24:08 pm

Quote from: Andy Harris on April 29, 2008, 11:05:49 am

- I think Tsunami should remain eliminate at 8a and the same problem using any holds / sequence should be "easy Tsunami" in the typical Peak nomenclature or maybe "King Wave" at 7c+

That makes sense to me. maybe "Tsunamesque"?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Bonjoy on April 29, 2008, 12:35:55 pm

Tsunamish  :shrug:

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on April 29, 2008, 12:43:20 pm

Tsunamiod

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Bonjoy on April 29, 2008, 01:10:31 pm

True-nami
Skew-nami
Shrew-nami
Pepperami
Origami
Wasabi sabi
Oliver's Army???

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on April 29, 2008, 01:13:12 pm

You-and-who's-army?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Bonjoy on April 29, 2008, 01:14:29 pm

Mr-Magoo-nami

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on April 29, 2008, 01:21:11 pm

(http://i25.tinypic.com/x4orb4.jpg)

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy B on April 29, 2008, 01:25:15 pm

Kudos/ Hotfun (ss) easy way, and all the traverses into Kudos easy, should be worth including as lines of least resistance. (Although some people find Kudos Easy the harder of the two methods.)

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: (woz) on April 29, 2008, 01:27:33 pm

So am I right in thinking all link ups have to finish up kudos hard way? What sequence do you use for this; is it down onto jug rail, then back up?
I was trying it traversing straight into kudos easy way i.e. traverse till LH kudos sidepull, then RH higher sidepull then LH jug.

Edit: Andy just posted re: easy sequence - Beta request remains...

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: andy_e on April 29, 2008, 01:41:18 pm

Punani?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: abarro81 on April 29, 2008, 01:45:03 pm

I think bigger splash direct is 7b rather than 7b+.. What's kudos easy SS? (Is hotfun another name for kudos?) Also, has anyone with big feet managed to put in the heel-toe on BSD kneeling/tsunami? My 10.5 pinks seemed rather unlikely to go in when I had a look the other week.. For pointless link-ups how about the sitstart to the traverse too..?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy Harris on April 29, 2008, 02:31:41 pm

All traverses don't have to finish up Kudos hard way (you can obviously do what you want) but again this was always the harder of the 2 and the more desired. Realistically you could knock off half to a grade for these alternatives. It's actually a very hard flag to drop down to the jug especially when linking in to other problems.

Kudos was the name of the original boulder problem done to the break and traversing off right and then climbing & jumping down. I believe it was done by Chris Gore. Ben Moon then superceeded this by climbing the full route and calling it hot fun. It was orignally given E7 or E8 7a as the 1st move off said smear and no jug was much harder than now. Now it is E7 6C or French 8a.

What about Punjabi?

Sequence to drop to jugs is both hands on long edges, LF to Kudos jug, big rock over or Egyptian to get Kudos sidepull with LH. Then either:
1. left foot to furthest part of jug, enormous flag, grunt, puff and reach to jug with RH (hardest)
2. LF to futhest part of jug, RF to spike below jug, LF off, grunt, puff and reach jug with RH (not as hard)

Clearly you can either climb down to jug then go up either variant or climb directly into easier finish.

I sincerely hope your 8a scorecards will not be awash with all this shenanigans  ;D

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: (woz) on April 29, 2008, 09:46:47 pm

Cheers for the beta  :)

Quote from: Andy Harris on April 29, 2008, 02:31:41 pm

I sincerely hope your 8a scorecards will not be awash with all this shenanigans  ;D

I hope you were joking with this. Who gives a fuck what people have on their scorecards? Not that I want to open up the 8aworms again...

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on May 14, 2008, 09:07:21 am

alright peeps

had a good session last night at rubicon, on the drive home got thinking about some other "worthwhile" linkups/problems and what the grades might be:

Kudos Traverse there and back?

Kudos sitter into Kudos traverse (or Bigger Tail - easiest way up the wall from sitter to top break?)?

Start on bigger tail rail then footless the rest of kudos traverse?

Theres also apparently a mick adams problem, starting right hand on the BSD sidepull and left on something (chalked pinchy undercut?) then slap left into the sidepull jug on the pinch.

also, we eyed the potential of doing the press eliminating the crimp, by going of the slopey intermediate instead - this looks good!


What a fucking great bit of crag.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: (woz) on May 14, 2008, 11:24:08 am

Quote from: dave on May 14, 2008, 09:07:21 am

Kudos Traverse there and back?

Wasn't this on the Harris topo at 7c?

Quote from: dave on May 14, 2008, 09:07:21 am

Kudos sitter into Kudos traverse (or Bigger Tail - easiest way up the wall from sitter to top break?)?

Into BT sounds good. 7b+? Will defo give that a go next time.

Quote from: dave on May 14, 2008, 09:07:21 am

What a fucking great bit of crag.

word.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy B on May 14, 2008, 05:57:27 pm

Quote from: dave on May 14, 2008, 09:07:21 am

Theres also apparently a mick adams problem, starting right hand on the BSD sidepull and left on something (chalked pinchy undercut?) then slap left into the sidepull jug on the pinch.

I think Mick/Mike started this as for Tsunami/ left press, and used "The Pinch" hold for the left hand rather than the Bigger Splash Direct undercut.

Quote from: (woz) on May 14, 2008, 11:24:08 am

Quote from: dave on May 14, 2008, 09:07:21 am

Kudos Traverse there and back?

Wasn't this on the Harris topo at 7c?

I can see the dollar signs in Dave's eyes already.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Kingy on May 14, 2008, 06:45:17 pm

Heyup, yeah these links are all great training and worthwhile once you have ticked the obvious classics. I'm sure Andy will clarify but to get the full tick of Kudos reverse, you have to down climb to both hands on the starting jug rail. I was trying this and its fricking desparate, even with a left heel on the rail. In fact the whole reverse traverse is one long left heel hook, so much so that I strained my left hamstring quite badly. The 'dropdown move' onto the bigger tail rail is bloody hard as well, a full-on power grunt of a move! To add to it all, the easiest problem to get to the start to work it all is the Press(!) as its starts off pretty high. All in all the reverse is a fairly tough proposition I'd say for 7b+ never mind linking it into the full traverse. I reckon the Press into the traverse reverse has to warrant 7c so there's another tick to go for. Enjoy!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on May 14, 2008, 07:06:03 pm

Quote from: Andy B on May 14, 2008, 05:57:27 pm

Quote from: (woz) on May 14, 2008, 11:24:08 am

Quote from: dave on May 14, 2008, 09:07:21 am

Kudos Traverse there and back?

Wasn't this on the Harris topo at 7c?

I can see the dollar signs in Dave's eyes already.

A lot of things used to be 7c on that topo, kudos and the press for example. Then I did them.

Ted, I put the moves together yesterday for the reverse of the traverse, I found dropping down onto the kudos starting jugs pretty straightforward, infact all of it was straightforward once you've sorted out someone to give you a man-up to the press jug. I didn't use any left heels, i suspect you may have been using some wack beta is a gent of your calibre found it desperate.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Kingy on May 14, 2008, 07:11:15 pm

Oh maybe an reappraisal is called for, cool that its maybe not too hard after all. i do so little downclimbing that it always feels a somewhat alien experience!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy B on May 14, 2008, 07:13:36 pm

Quote from: dave on May 14, 2008, 07:06:03 pm

all of it was straightforward once you've sorted out someone to give you a man-up to the press jug.

I knew you appreciated that ballet lift really :kiss2:

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Kingy on May 14, 2008, 07:18:33 pm

Quote from: dave on May 14, 2008, 07:06:03 pm

man-up to the press jug.

I made a primitive ladder to start this bit, ie a plank with some bits of wood nailled to it. Unfortunately it proved to be about English 6c to get stood up on the thing so I sacked it off. Amazing the things you'll do when you have too much time on your hands. What you really need is something like the cragx ladder.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on May 14, 2008, 09:44:56 pm

you could try getting massing ramblers to form a human pyramid. if they can do it on bikes, all the better.

(http://pib.nic.in/archieve/phtgalry/pgyr2003/pg012003/pg26jan2003/p26012003e.jpg)

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 15, 2008, 10:29:56 am

OK I'm confused. Is the sitter to Kudos (hard way) what Andy is calling "Hot Fun SS (hard way) 7C"?

If so, I think I did this yesterday but just wanted to check I did it correctly. I started LH undercut crozzled pocket thing RH pinchy flat edge, feet on low little edges. RH to high wobbly undercut which looks like it will explode soon. Step LF through to good small edge, LH jug, match and then do Kudos by getting RH on the good crimp and rocking over, LF in the jug to reach nonchalantly grab for the flakes.

I was going by Ru's guide and reckoned 7B+ was fair for this sequence in comparison to 7B for the stand up and 7B for BSD stand up. Is this right?  :-\

Also The Press felt desperate in comparison but this was because it was absolutely fucking boiling and the starting holds felt like they had been smeared with Flora.

Quote from: dave on May 14, 2008, 09:07:21 am

What a fucking great bit of crag.

So true.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on May 15, 2008, 11:05:42 am

yeah that sounds right, good tick. i like the sound of using that undercut - we tried using that as a backhand last year which felt good but would probably explode your shoulder or chest cartilage if you tried to move from it.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d175/beardownproductions/Dave/Peak/andyrubisit.jpg)

i've been tryin just going off the low undercut to the jugs, but if i hold it in a comfy fashion its shit and a nails move, but if i work fingers into the righthand end (which aught to make it a good hold) its too painful to weight it.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 15, 2008, 11:27:43 am

Cool, if Crimpolene Agnes Hornblower says 7C then that's good enough for me.  ;)

I tried going straight for the jugs to start with but it seemed that little bit too far. Then tried using the sidepull spike thing just below them but this seemed that little bit too hard. The undercut way is easier but it's worryingly loose and could do with fixing really. Know what you mean about the start undercut. I ended up working first 3 fingers into it as the "comfy" way was actually ripping the skin of my middle tip. It was a bit painful on the ring finger but nothing some old fashioned teeth gritting couldn't overcome. I was, however a bit pissed off to have to stuff my fingers back into the undercut and do the whole thing again having fallen off the last move like a twat. I'm starting to think this might be my signature move.  :wank:

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 15, 2008, 11:34:36 am

Quote from: Kingy on May 14, 2008, 07:18:33 pm

I made a primitive ladder to start this bit, ie a plank with some bits of wood nailled to it. Unfortunately it proved to be about English 6c to get stood up on the thing so I sacked it off.

Ha ha ha ha. Just spotted this. Good effort!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on May 21, 2008, 03:42:37 pm

OK i've taken the liberty (and the opportunity to waste some time at work) of compiling all the problems mentioned herein into a roughly graded list, linkups in italics, and consistent/conventional naming. have left out the theoretical linkups that might not have been done yet, and stuff we've got no grade for yet (like mick adams thing).

as someone who's only ticked some of these i'm guessing at the order, particularly as theres a ton of incomparable 7cs, and mainly its based on the Harris's order. if anyone doesn't know what banksy's undercut is, its a problem right of bigger splash, undercut to some poor edges, then to the break via crimp out right if you spot it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Banksy's undercut problem                                                   7a/+
Bigger Tail (jump start)                                                          7a+
Bigger Splash                                                                        7a+
Kudos Easy                                                                           7b
Kudos Traverse                                                                     7b
Kudos Hard                                                                           7b+
Bigger Splash direct (LH u’cut)                                             7b+
The Press                                                                              7b+
Kudos (SS) into Bigger Tail                                                   7b+
Kudos Easy (SS)                                                                   7b+/c
Kudos Hard (SS)                                                                   7c
Twin Pinches to jug                                                               7c
Kudos Traverse there-and-back                                            7c
Standing Varian Start to Bigger Tail                                      7c
Original Kudos (no jugs, rock onto glassy sloper)                 7c
Low Right Bigger Splash Direct                                             7c
Problem left of Kudos (stand start)                                        7c/7c+
Low Right Press                                                                    7c+
Tsunamish (Tsunami with pocket)                                        7c+
Press (or BSD) + Reverse Kudos Trav + Kudos Hard          7c+/8a
Tsunami (sloper match)                                                        8a
Low Left Press                                                                      8a+
Low Right Press + Reverse Kudos Trav + Kudos Hard        8a+
Tsunami + Reverse Kudos Trav + Kudos Hard                    8a+
Varian Sitter                                                                          8a+/8b
Low Left Press + Reverse Kudos Trav + Kudos Hard          8a+/8b 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Should be enough there to get even Johnny Footwork psyched. Any comments?

P.S. any idea why the forum software fucks up/ignores spacing and tab formating that everything else, even notepad, can handle?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: slackline on May 21, 2008, 04:02:23 pm

Quote from: dave on May 21, 2008, 03:42:37 pm

P.S. any idea why the forum software fucks up/ignores spacing and tab formating that everything else, even notepad, can handle?

No idea, but you can use the tables instead, et voila...

Problem	Grade
Banksy's undercut problem	7a/+
Bigger Tail (jump start)	7a+
Bigger Splash	7a+
Kudos Easy	7b
Kudos Traverse	7b
Kudos Hard	7b+
Bigger Splash direct (LH u’cut)	7b+
The Press	7b+
Kudos (SS) into Bigger Tail	7b+
Kudos Easy (SS)	7b+/c
Kudos Hard (SS)	7c
Twin Pinches to jug	7c
Kudos Traverse there-and-back	7c
Standing Varian Start to Bigger Tail	7c
Original Kudos (no jugs, rock onto glassy sloper)	7c
Low Right Bigger Splash Direct	7c
Problem left of Kudos (stand start)	7c/7c+
Low Right Press	7c+
Tsunamish (Tsunami with pocket)	7c+
Press (or BSD) + Reverse Kudos Trav + Kudos Hard	7c+/8a
Tsunami (sloper match)	8a
Low Left Press	8a+
Low Right Press + Reverse Kudos Trav + Kudos Hard	8a+
Tsunami + Reverse Kudos Trav + Kudos Hard	8a+
Varian Sitter	8a+/8b
Low Left Press + Reverse Kudos Trav + Kudos Hard	8a+/8b

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on May 21, 2008, 04:04:22 pm

nows thats some hot shit.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: r-man on May 21, 2008, 04:28:38 pm

I always knew you had a higher purpose in life, Dave! Nice one. You've Parisella'd Rubicon!

Where's the Mick Adams problem though?

7b+ for Kudos hard...?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Stubbs on May 21, 2008, 04:33:14 pm

As you've got other slashies on your list perhaps a demotion of BSD to 7B/+?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: galpinos on May 21, 2008, 04:45:19 pm

Good effort Dave. I now know the names and grades of all the problems I can't do! My ticklist has just got massive.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on May 21, 2008, 05:07:38 pm

Quote from: r-man on May 21, 2008, 04:28:38 pm

Where's the Mick Adams problem though?

Where physically, or why isn't is on the list? Psycally it goes from the press sidepull into the jug of the pinch, probably from a low start. Not on list cos we have no grade.

Quote from: r-man on May 21, 2008, 04:28:38 pm

7b+ for Kudos hard...?

fuck knows, just going on the harris list. ditto for BSD - do people seriously find this easier than the press? i'm ass-tonished.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Stubbs on May 21, 2008, 05:17:38 pm

I did BSD in a session but couldn't get the move to the crimp on the press - perhaps BSD is more basic and you have to learn the body position for the press?  I dunno...

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 22, 2008, 09:12:28 am

Good work dave.  :thumbsup: So many good problems on a little chunk of rock.

Quote from: dave on May 21, 2008, 05:07:38 pm

do people seriously find this easier than the press? i'm ass-tonished.

I do definitely. BSD 7B, The Press 7B+ I reckon. The Press is two tricky moves instead of just one slap (which is pretty easy once you get your feet sorted) plus it's much more conditions dependent. I can imagine that on a freezing morning The Press would feel piss but not having had the opportunity of doing it in mint conditions I don't actually know this. I can't fathom moving off The Press gaston from the lower start mind, although it's easy enough getting it - arms way too weak I think (of course).

Kudos is a funny one as I find the "hard" way pretty easy but I think it just suits me (as discussed). Having done Kudos Original yesterday my next project will be the completely eliminate Kudos Original (SS) where obviously you can use the jugs for hands but not feet. Ha ha, get it on the list! The essence of lime bouldering, worth doing as the sloper rockover move is quality. Top end 7C or very bottom end 7C+? I hate / grades. :-\

I have so much to do on this wall. ;D

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on May 22, 2008, 09:24:28 am

I recon for Kudos Original (SS) to make any sence you've got to eliminate the handrail for hands (as you do on the standing start) as well as feet, otherwise its just screwy.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 22, 2008, 09:34:09 am

That would probably be rather tricky. But worth a try!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: travs on May 22, 2008, 09:54:55 am

Since when was the hand rail eliminated on Kudos hard way? And more to the point why? I really don't see it making any difference as the pocket for your left hand is bommer as is the small spike for your right foot below the hand rail. I really cant see eliminating the hand rail changing the grade so why eliminate it?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 22, 2008, 10:17:57 am

It's not on the hard way that it's eliminated on it's on the original (see Andy's post). The rail didn't used to be there so the problem rocked over on the polished sloper to the left. It's a worthy probelm as it's how it was first climbed and is worth doing as it's a nice move. It's also a lot harder than using the rail for feet.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 22, 2008, 10:19:15 am

Quote from: Andy Harris on April 29, 2008, 11:05:49 am

I will also add Original Hotfun (7c) which starts LH on 3 finger pocket, RH to gaston, rockover on poor smear left of jug rail (basically the jug rail didn't use to exist and this problem is a lot harder than using the jug).

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: travs on May 22, 2008, 10:27:39 am

When Kudos was first done, ie 'Original Way?', it was done the hard way ie with the rock over. I know because I repeated this shortly after Chris Gore about 18 years or so ago. At that time there was definitely a good hold on the rail, at the right hand end I think. I understand eliminating the rest of the hold would make the easy way a bit harder but what are you going to say? Only use the very last 2 inches at the right hand end?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 22, 2008, 10:39:43 am

It doesn't make any difference for hands as you say. It's more that you haven't got a huge great ledge to stand on with your left foot thus making the rockover steady. Instead it's a much harder (and in my opinion better) move rocking over on the smeary thing. This was the way I did it years ago as shown by Quentin. There was, as you say, a hold for the right hand but no big ledge to rock up on so doing the problem this way is in fact as close to the original as you're going to get.

But at the end of the day it is just an eliminate Neil. Nothing to worry about!  ;D

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: travs on May 22, 2008, 10:46:08 am

This is quite interesting because I've never tried rocking with my foot on the big ledge, I've always (or always did, as I haven't tried this problem for a few years) rocked on the sloper. I will however check it out next I'm down there.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 22, 2008, 10:55:49 am

If I stand in the ledge I can static the move quite easily. Rocking on the sloper took me about six goes yesterday and required a lot more effort.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: travs on May 22, 2008, 11:01:39 am

I thought you were complaining about being weak, yet you're climbing 7c? :-\

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 22, 2008, 11:12:24 am

Only if it really suits me.  ;)

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Kingy on May 22, 2008, 06:39:14 pm

For Kudos Original SS you could use the jug rail on the right hand side for the right hand only thus eliminating the new left hand ledgy thing for the LH. This would be in keeping with the original problem and would not add much/ any difficulty - it would however be how this problem was originally climbed and would avoid the sneaking suspicion that you are using a jug that you should not be using! Fair enough its eliminating part of a hold but is this so terrible?!!  :o

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 23, 2008, 08:04:49 am

Spot on Kingy,I was thinking exactly the same thing last night. God I can be such a geek sometimes.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on May 23, 2008, 08:32:47 am

maybe this will throw a spanner in the works - theres a sequence for kudos hardway that takes the backhand hold, puts right heel on the righthand end of the jug rail, drops the toe into a heel-toe, then bounces up the intermediates to the "jug" with left hand. no much grade difference but a bit less pully/throwy, might suit some folks. especially those with an amputated left leg, as it doesn't use it as all.

also, has anyone got any beta on the Pinch problem - banks did this by taping his left toe up and sticking it in the low-left starting slot, which i'm understandably not keen for. i can hit the sidepull jug by going with right foot on the Rh hold on the press kneeler break, but not in any kind of control.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 23, 2008, 08:55:20 am

Quote from: dave on May 23, 2008, 08:32:47 am

maybe this will throw a spanner in the works - theres a sequence for kudos hardway that takes the backhand hold, puts right heel on the righthand end of the jug rail, drops the toe into a heel-toe, then bounces up the intermediates to the "jug" with left hand. no much grade difference but a bit less pully/throwy, might suit some folks. especially those with an amputated left leg, as it doesn't use it as all.

This is how Scouse was getting very close to doing it on Wednesday although he nearly dislocated his right knee in the process. Yeah I realise that this does chuck a bit of a spanner in the works as far as just eliminating the rest of the rail is concerned but I was just going to ignore this fact.  :whistle:

Quote from: dave on May 23, 2008, 08:32:47 am

also, has anyone got any beta on the Pinch problem - banks did this by taping his left toe up and sticking it in the low-left starting slot, which i'm understandably not keen for. i can hit the sidepull jug by going with right foot on the Rh hold on the press kneeler break, but not in any kind of control.

We were trying to stand in that slot but it's really frustrating as your foot keeps popping out just when you think you've got some weight on it. I'm pretty sure this way will go as one time out of about 15 my foot stayed on for a few seconds and I was able to muster a bit of a throw at the jug before it popped. Toe taping doesn't sound like an option to me.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 23, 2008, 10:09:26 am

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7362159748691713828

This video includes some unhelpful footage of Ned making The Pinch look piss. Looks like he just stands in the pocket.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on May 23, 2008, 10:25:27 am

so basically the beta is "get stronger".

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on May 23, 2008, 10:30:18 am

Isn't it always?

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Kingy on May 23, 2008, 06:13:03 pm

Quote from: dave on May 23, 2008, 08:32:47 am

also, has anyone got any beta on the Pinch problem -

I put my left toe in the left hand end of the Tsunami starting slot and kind or wriggled it in so it was seated really well. Then I pulled like fook. It was about -5 when I did it though so the holds felt like jugs! I crimped the tiny edge for the RH instead of pinching the whole hold. I size my barracudas really big so my toe is flat in the shoe rather than ultra bunched up which would make wiggling it into the slot that much harder.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on June 05, 2008, 09:45:02 am

Did BSD from the kneeling start yesterday using a combination of other people's beta from this thread. Thanks! It's a great set of moves and I had to use a really specific foot sequence for it to go from feeling desperate to possible.

I started LH two finger pocket, RH little positive edge next to it, RF good slanty edge that most people use on The Press. Rock up onto the RF, RH to the sidepull then really press out the pocket and right leg to shift body position over to the left. LF outside edge on the other good foothold next to RF, RF toe where most put the heel toe in, LF back to starting foothold RF was on. As mentioned earlier in the thread this then creates a solid position from which to reach the LH undercut. Plus from here I just had to move LF up to the positive little spiky thing (very important to place it carefully) and bang RH to the flat, right part of the jug without moving the RF.

Obviously the next challenge is to link in the low right start, the moves on which are fine. Only thing is I seem to have seen different starting positions so do you have to start LH in pocket RH on the big flake thing or is starting crossed over (i.e. one move further in) allowed? I know it probably doesn't make a huge difference but I don't want to A) add an extra move that I don't need to be doing in or more importantly B) do it wrong.

Also, for Tsunami where do people put their feet for matching the sloper? Haven't had a go in cold conditions yet and I realise it's a hard move but the only way I've got close was with a totally basic LF in starting hold RF on nothing slap which although doable is obviously NOT the best way.

Finally, for Tsunamish (with pocket) what is the usual foot sequence and do you go RH pocket LH sloper RH sidepull or is moving further along the rail so you're in the position I started the kneeling start from allowed / advisable?  :-\

Thanks in advance for any help. ;D

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on June 05, 2008, 10:56:32 am

good effort word. last night i manged to do BSD again for the first time in about 4 years so am psyched for get some good beta on the kneeler. had a brief play last night but reached no conclusions.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on June 06, 2008, 10:59:57 am

I see you got that link up done dave. Fine effort.

Anyone got a clue re my queries?  :-\

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on June 06, 2008, 11:13:44 am

nice one cheers, its a cracking combo of moves, got a bit of everything. kudos wall just reeks of quality at the moment.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy Harris on June 06, 2008, 12:10:16 pm

Originally BSD right hand started from the low jug pocket (RH) below RH Press foothold, pull on to LH finger lock in awkward slot, then cross with RH to flat sika'd edge and LH pocket.

However it's more complete, a bit longer and more sensible to start from the huge jugs on the right, LH to good 3 finger pocket then as above. No change in grade at all but this should be the approved start for this variant.

For Tsunami sloper match I use original method of LF only in poor pocket down & right of start slot. You can however:
- do it footless
- get big egyptian on poor pocket & RF on spiky edge out right
- use spiky edge out right and flag like a bas****

You should try the stand start to Dan Varians new sitter. Spicy 1 move 7c with the normal top out.
enjoy

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on June 06, 2008, 12:16:16 pm

Cheers Andy

Quote from: Andy Harris on June 06, 2008, 12:10:16 pm

You should try the stand start to Dan Varians new sitter. Spicy 1 move 7c with the normal top out.
enjoy

Is this just pulling on on the horrible RH pocket and little LH crimpy thing and going for the jug? I've had a feel of those holds but I think it's one for when it's a bit cooler than when I've been there previously!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on June 06, 2008, 12:49:59 pm

you've got a slopey pocket for LH (you can either drag it, try to crimp, or backhand it a bit) and that tight lower slot for RH, which is best (for the stander) held as a 2-finger backhand where its positive. tis a good problem.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy B on June 06, 2008, 01:09:51 pm

If you use the right hand hold as a backhand you can get three fingers involved by putting your middle two on the best bit and your index slightly separated on another (not quite as) good bit just beneath. You can also use this hold as a wide horizontal pinch, using your thumb on the top lip of the slot and fingers on the slopeyness above. This gives you a bit more pull up, but a bit less pull in.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on June 06, 2008, 01:13:21 pm

Quote from: Andy B on June 06, 2008, 01:09:51 pm

by putting your middle two on the best bit and your index slightly separated on another (not quite as) good bit just beneath.

i had my thumb on this bit, and first 2 fingers on the rest. if i can't get a thumb on i'm screwed.

I think pinching this hold works if you're straight dragging/crimping the LH, but if you're backhandind like I did you need to also backhand the slot to get any push/opposition into it. i tried pinching for this and it just didn't play ball.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy B on June 06, 2008, 01:21:51 pm

Quote from: Jaspersharpe on June 05, 2008, 09:45:02 am

for Tsunamish (with pocket) what is the usual foot sequence and do you go RH pocket LH sloper RH sidepull or is moving further along the rail so you're in the position I started the kneeling start from allowed / advisable?  :-\

Thanks in advance for any help. ;D

Seeing as (insert witty pun on Tsunami here) is just the non eliminate version of Tsunami surely you can use whatever you want to get into the stander. However I find it slightly easier to go off the sloper than the pocket as you can get more side out of the sidepull from the start of the move, rather than having to hang it and move round under it to start pulling up to the undercut.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on June 06, 2008, 01:41:25 pm

Nice one. Yes I know what you mean. The body position is better if you have LH on the sloper, you don't have to push across so much to get into the solid position on the sidepull. Interesting.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on July 19, 2008, 11:03:04 am

In the grand tradition of boasting but partly because I also have a query........I finally did BSD from the low right start last night. As the lake echoed to the sound of me shouting YYFY!!! as I swung off the jug, I thought about how much effort I'd had to put into climbing this problem and it's difficulty in relation to the other problems I've done at Rubicon recently.

Essentially, how the fuck can climbing this problem from the low right start (5 extra moves) be the same grade as starting from the rail? In trying Low Right, I must have done the problem from the rail five or six times and while it never felt piss, it's much easier than linking in from the start, or is this just me? The Press from the rail is supposed to be 7C+ and from low right 8A. So why the extra grade for doing those same moves into that but not for BSD? Doesn't make sense to me.

Now I'm not saying that Low Right BSD is 7C+ (although everyone I've spoken to seems to think it is). As I was discussing with Sellars and The Sausage yesterday, in a way I'd rather take hard 7C than soft 7C+ but the grades need to make sense relative to the other problems there and if BSD from stand up is 7B then from the rail it's certainly two grades harder and from Low Right certainly harder again. In comparison to the Kudos variations (SS and Original) which may be 7C, Low Right BSD is also easily a full grade harder - for me.

Of course this is all subjective as some people may not find the above to be the case like me. I have very specific strengths and weaknesses. However, as I said, everyone I've spoken to thinks that this is an anomaly. Maybe it should be 7B+ from the rail and 7C from low right but then the stand up must be 7A+!? Discuss please.

Oh and........ :dance1: :bounce: :beer1: :beer1:

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: saltbeef on July 19, 2008, 11:26:47 am

Good effort!
I did BSD from the rail this year and i only climb 7b or swiss 7c so I'd guess its probably 7b! I haven't got a clue, I never linked it from the right due to various finger tweaks and hotness but it certainly felt harder! how can it not be, those extra couple of moves have got some painful little holds involved (ie the one referred to as a dogs mouth!)
anyway good effort. now for the left! (I think its a really good problem)

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Doylo on July 19, 2008, 11:28:08 am

For me the stand is 7a+, the crouch 7c, haven't tried the moves coming in from the right but know from experience that usually when you add moves to a 7c you get a 7c+ (unless they're really piss of course). Good effort Jasper.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Doylo on July 19, 2008, 11:29:10 am

Quote from: saltbeef on July 19, 2008, 11:26:47 am

Good effort!
I did BSD from the rail this year and i only climb 7b or swiss 7c so I'd guess its probably 7b! I haven't got a clue, I never linked it from the right due to various finger tweaks and hotness but it certainly felt harder! how can it not be, those extra couple of moves have got some painful little holds involved (ie the one referred to as a dogs mouth!)
anyway good effort. now for the left! (I think its a really good problem)

your stronger than 7b salts

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on July 19, 2008, 12:10:03 pm

Cheers lads. Yes this is my thinking entirely. Though the moves aren't that hard it's the equivalent to me of doing a four/five move 6C+/7A into the crouch start. It takes a bit out of your fingers for the hard moves and crucially, removes the chalk so the grease factor is higher. Liquid chalk seemed to help a bit.

Doylo - I thought of your sermon on crushing before my successful attempt. I'd had three goes, all of which at least equalled my high point on the problem and I felt really strong. It was one of those times like you said when you don't know when you're next going to feel that good so fuck worrying about the conditions and crush!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: nathan wind on July 19, 2008, 12:10:20 pm

good effort!

for what its worth I think its top end 7C, especially in comparison to other 7C's I've done.. I don't think I've ever been on a 7C thats felt that desperate / frustrating.. whilst the moves in from the right aren't that hard, they certainly aren't easy and definitely take something out of you.. the top I think is a brick hard 7A though prolly 7A+, though I do have it wired.. starting from the rail has got to be 7B+?

anyhow, awesome climbing..

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: nathan wind on July 19, 2008, 12:13:46 pm

oh yeah and wearing V10's really helps too!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Doylo on July 19, 2008, 12:15:04 pm

Quote from: Jaspersharpe on July 19, 2008, 12:10:03 pm

Doylo - I thought of your sermon on crushing before my successful attempt. I'd had three goes, all of which at least equalled my high point on the problem and I felt really strong. It was one of those times like you said when you don't know when you're next going to feel that good so fuck worrying about the conditions and crush!

Then my work here is done.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Kingy on July 19, 2008, 10:46:27 pm

Nice one Jasper! I fell off the final slap for the jug on the low right version and smacked my elbow really bad on a jagged rock cos my foot stayed too long in the footlock! With the footlock I found the final slap easier than on the standup, where you are forced to place your right toe on the foothold. I have always found the standup to be 7b and then some! The crouching start wasn't too bad with the footlock as I flagged my left foot under and onto a vertical edge out right for balance. The moves in from the right I found didn't add much at all as I had a pretty efficient way of doing it with minimal footchanges. If anything your power is up by the time you hit the crouching start so it actually helps you in a strange way, rather than hitting the move cold.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy B on July 20, 2008, 12:43:23 pm

Quote from: Kingy on July 19, 2008, 10:46:27 pm

The moves in from the right I found didn't add much at all....If anything your power is up by the time you hit the crouching start so it actually helps you in a strange way, rather than hitting the move cold.

There speaks a true route climber.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on July 20, 2008, 12:49:56 pm

 :lol: Genius, I was just thinking that.

For Ted the start is a nice warm up. For me it's a power sapping extra set of moves which make the problem much harder. :(

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on July 22, 2008, 10:55:17 pm

Saw a genius linkup being tried today (if you are that guy, fucking good effort). started sitting as for low left press, do the start then reverse the low right press pockets bit to the start of Bigger splash, then up this, then reverse kudos traverse, finish up kudos easy. fuck knows what this would get but it must be a hefty grade, since Bigger Splash into kudos reverse into kudos is probably a good 7c+ on it's own (not really any easier than press-rev-kudos), then add in all the low stuff!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dobbin on July 23, 2008, 09:50:54 am

Yeah, but there are big rest jugs to have a cup of tea on at the top of the Press. I dont reckon you'd get a really high bouldering grade to be honest. Route grade 8c at least though...

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on July 23, 2008, 09:53:35 am

for "big rest jugs" read flatty and and incut. in know i certainly couldn't recover on these.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on July 23, 2008, 10:01:45 am

I dunno Dave. I have no stamina (or powers of recovery) whatsoever but even I reckon I could get a bit back hanging off those jugs, stood on the rail. It's a pretty cushty position! This link up sounds like something that would be tricky to give a bouldering grade to. Impressive stuff though.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy Harris on July 23, 2008, 12:13:48 pm

Interesting link.
Tsunami start & traverse to big jugs Font 7c
Big rest (you could even do a bat hang if it took your fancy)
Bigger Splash Font 7a+
Good shake out but not a total rest
Reverse hot fun traverse to easy hot fun Font 7b+/c

Prospective route grade 8b, maybe 8b+

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: The Sausage on July 23, 2008, 09:54:54 pm

Quote from: Jaspersharpe on July 19, 2008, 11:03:04 am

Now I'm not saying that Low Right BSD is 7C+ (although everyone I've spoken to seems to think it is). As I was discussing with Sellars and The Sausage yesterday, in a way I'd rather take hard 7C than soft 7C+...

Firstly, good effort - especially in the middle of summer.

Secondly, I think BSD crouch is 7c, and therefore must be 7c+ from the low start. The quote above was more a general remark when a route/problem really is hovvering on the grade margin (e.g. grooved arete, kilnsey). BSD from low right is surely solid 7c+ - the only ones i've done are Lou Ferrino and The Hulk, and i'm sure it's harder than either of those.

As for Ted's idea about the start moves making the problem easier. Well, I thought he was an intelligent fellow...

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Kingy on July 24, 2008, 12:34:55 pm

I agree this BSD low right is a solid 7c but don't reckon its 7c+. The crux moves are not as hard as the press, which is a solid 7c+. The start adds not very much/ nothing at all to it. It seems a shame to have a needless upgrade on the back of some relatively easy moves. Admittedly I am approaching this from a route climber's perspective where you're kind of used to doing a bit of climbing to get to the crux. eg. the Zoolook start into the crux headwall or even OOMT start into the crux or RAH start into its crux move. Whilst BSD low right is undoubtedly much harder than any of these examples, I think the same principle applies.

For what its worth, I think BSD crouching is 7b+ with the footlock. Do people not use this? I thought it worked really well and could not do the move without it. Is this where the difference of opinion over the grade stems from? I am quite used to using cheating faggotry on classic problems eg. Chimes and Revelations heel toe cams and think problems should be graded for the easiest method available, unless you're talking about eliminates, which i don't think we are here. If the stand up is 7b, some ppl have said 7a+!!!, then is the crouching really 2 grades harder for only 2 more hand movements with the footlock in place?? I didn't think so but then i have met ppl who think its the living end and swear its 7c+.

BTW I was being slightly tongue in cheek saying it was easier from the low right just to make my point!! I was basing it on my experience of the Press Low Right which felt easier  than the crouching version as I felt it flowed better rather than just pulling on halfway thru the sequence which is effectively what the crouching version does. Anybody else find this sometimes, that its hard to pull on halfway through a complicated move and often easier to start from a few moves in on jugs and climb into it?

Anyway, its really hot and greasy down there right now so lets not get carried away when these things are so much easier in baltic temps!!  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on July 24, 2008, 01:01:04 pm

ted, you're tripping.

if the low right starts were no harder then you'd find that once people had done the kneeling start then they'd be casually knocking off the low right after a couple of goes, or next session, but I bet in the majority of instances this isn't the case.

on the subject of the footlock, i have only been about to do any moves on the kneeler without it.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on July 24, 2008, 01:03:53 pm

I didn't use the footlock but not because I thought it was cheating. Presumably you have to do an extra move along the rail so you have LH on the sloper RH in the pocket (as discussed earlier in the thread) to then get the footlock in and once I knew I could do the move from LH in the pocket I didn't try the alternative way. As mentioned I needed to be doing as few moves as possible! I'm surprised that it makes that much of a difference to you though Ted as when I first tried the problem I tried the moves with the heel in and it didn't feel secure or that much easier so I just dismissed it as unnecessary faggotry. I admit that I am shit at stuff like that though, I'd rather stick a toe on and pull hard.

Know what you mean about pulling on half way though a sequence sometimes being harder but it doesn't apply for me on this problem. I found linking the start in made a big difference. About six sessions difference in fact.

Joe - funny you should mention The Hulk. Was thinking of going to try this the other day and then realised that it was 15 years ago the last time I went to C********k and I couldn't even remember how to get there. Retard. Can someone PM me please.  :-[

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Jaspersharpe on July 24, 2008, 01:17:14 pm

Thanks people.  ;D

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Kingy on July 24, 2008, 01:33:16 pm

Quote from: dave on July 24, 2008, 01:01:04 pm

if the low right starts were no harder then you'd find that once people had done the kneeling start then they'd be casually knocking off the low right after a couple of goes, or next session, but I bet in the majority of instances this isn't the case.

I'm only speaking from personal experience here with the low right press which went down the next session after I got the kneeling version. I don't know many other ppl who have done it but will take your word for it.

see you down there tonight Dave, hopefully conditions will be a little better than tues!! There will be an 'hour of power' at 8 I reckon once the sun goes down, nice.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on July 24, 2008, 01:46:02 pm

Quote from: Kingy on July 24, 2008, 01:33:16 pm

see you down there tonight Dave, hopefully conditions will be a little better than tues!! There will be an 'hour of power' at 8 I reckon once the sun goes down, nice.

not likely, i don't think i can face another session of terrible nick!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dobbin on July 24, 2008, 02:50:58 pm

Never managed to make that heel toe work, but know plenty of others who can milk it for all its worth. The start from the right isnt hard, but do think also bit harder than trivial. I do think I did LR almost immeadiately after doing kneeling press too, but I cant imagine doing any of them in this heat. Blimey. That on its own is worth an immeadiate upgrade!

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: Andy Harris on July 24, 2008, 07:42:52 pm

There is absolutely know way on earth BSD is 7a+. If it is we might as well downgrade every other problem in the world. I've seen this shut down or at least test many climbers who climb far harder. 7b it is an a 1 move 7b is a pretty hard individual move.

For me there is no grade difference between the crouch and kneel version. It is undoutably harder as it involves a. more moves and b. more fatigue prior to starting those moves. The impact of a & b will be determined by your fitness. I'd say they wee botha  solid 7c with the right version marginally harder for the average climbing population but not deserved of another grade.

As for the heel move I've never done it as we always climbed the problem with LH in the pocket. Does it make it easier? Probably. For me it's just another of the umpteen variations and if you climb there on a regular basis chances are you doing it more for the training . So do the easier version 1st, then the harder one, then forget about the easier one and do the harder one with a  weight belt.

If you really want eliminate and probably the hardest version only use the original sequence which involves stepping on all the tiny edge smears rather than the big edges/sloper.

Title: Re: Bigger Splash Direct
Post by: dave on August 11, 2009, 09:12:56 am

rubicon heads up, couple of things I thought worth mentioning for the collectors/consumerists out there:

I know there's a "ned's problem" going from the sloper/pinch hold to the press jug - not sure if its been mentioned on here though, but its a worthy eliminate. Anyone done/tried this? Grade etc?

Whilst trying this last night I did an easier thing, left hand on the sloper/pinch (actually crimping it), right hand on press sidepull, go for the press jug with RH. Possibly a touch harder than BSD (or easier?), but I'd take a rain check on grading it. Would be a good thing to link it from any of the sit/crouch/kneeling starts.


Incidentally when people have been tickmarking holds on this wall, even holds which aren't blind, could they remember to brush thme off afterwards? cos they don't wash off in the rain.