UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Adam Lincoln on March 13, 2011, 11:24:45 am
-
Ok, trying to get opinions on anything that stands out grades wise that needs changing in the new guide.
What better way to do it than on here.
Fire away :worms:
-
Where do I start....
-
What better way to do it than on here.
UKC if its to be published by the parent company Rockfax. I guess thats a different type :worms:
:devil-smiley:
-
What has Bat Route settled on now?
-
Mawson and Mcclure think 8c
-
Mawson and Mcclure think 8c
Probably why I couldn't find the holds :-\
-
Thoughts on Cry Freedom? Unjustified? Transform?
Any of the easier things need sorting? I think maybe puddlejumper down to 6c+, maybe rose coronary too?
-
Make life easy for yourself and keep Serps happy into the bargain. Look at my logbook on ukc and take a grade off everything :goodidea:
-
I think maybe puddlejumper down to 6c+, maybe rose coronary too?
I did these both for the first time last year. Puddlejumper felt fair to me at 7a but I thought rose coronary seemed very soft for 7a.
-
Any of the easier things need sorting? I think maybe puddlejumper down to 6c+, maybe rose coronary too?
To my mind Rose is a bit easier than Puddlejumper and personally I think Rose still just scrapes 7a... :-\
-
Rose at 6c+
Comedy and Pantomime are the same grade. 7b+.
New Age is 7c+ (it's easier than Main Overhang, which feels more like 8a)
Baboo scrapes in at 8a
Vogue is nails at 7c+
Chocolate Logger at 7b+
Le Lapin is worth 8a
-
Baboo scrapes in at 8a Not been on so can't comment
Vogue is nails at 7c+ Only had a brief play, think Serps might agree. Though can we really upgrade a Lovatt route?
Chocolate Logger at 7b+ Good one
-
Rose at 6c+
Comedy and Pantomime are the same grade. 7b+.
New Age is 7c+ (it's easier than Main Overhang, which feels more like 8a)
Baboo scrapes in at 8a
Vogue is nails at 7c+
Chocolate Logger at 7b+
Le Lapin is worth 8a
Interesting.. Not done Pantomime but though Comedy was pretty standard at 7c.
New Age to me was harder than Baboo
Perhaps this highlights how difficult it is to fiddle around with the grades on well established and popular routes. I think unless a route stands out as being blatantly under/over graded (like soft option at Kilnsey maybe) it should be left alone; otherwise why not regrade Zoolook as 8a+ and GBH as 8a :shrug:
-
I think Rose Coronary must be soft. I jumped on it expecting to project it before I'd done a 7a and flashed it as the first climb of the day. And I'm shit.
-
Rose at 6c+
Comedy and Pantomime are the same grade. 7b+.
New Age is 7c+ (it's easier than Main Overhang, which feels more like 8a)
Baboo scrapes in at 8a
Vogue is nails at 7c+
Chocolate Logger at 7b+
Le Lapin is worth 8a
Interesting.. Not done Pantomime but though Comedy was pretty standard at 7c.
New Age to me was harder than Baboo
Perhaps this highlights how difficult it is to fiddle around with the grades on well established and popular routes. I think unless a route stands out as being blatantly under/over graded (like soft option at Kilnsey maybe) it should be left alone; otherwise why not regrade Zoolook as 8a+ and GBH as 8a :shrug:
New Age was given 7c+ to begin with IIRC. Baboo was 7c+ but nails for the grade. Comedy is one tricky pull followed by jug pulling. There are those who would agree with Zoolook at 8a+ and GBH at 8a. From my admittedly brief dalliances with them I'd be inclined to agree. Soft Option was (I think, but could be wrong) given 8a+ originally.
-
Vogue is nails at 7c+ Only had a brief play, think Serps might agree. Though can we really upgrade a Lovatt route?
Didn't Vogue get 8a originally? :-\
-
Rose at 6c+
Comedy and Pantomime are the same grade. 7b+.
New Age is 7c+ (it's easier than Main Overhang, which feels more like 8a)
Baboo scrapes in at 8a
Vogue is nails at 7c+
Chocolate Logger at 7b+
Le Lapin is worth 8a
Interesting.. Not done Pantomime but though Comedy was pretty standard at 7c.
New Age to me was harder than Baboo
Perhaps this highlights how difficult it is to fiddle around with the grades on well established and popular routes. I think unless a route stands out as being blatantly under/over graded (like soft option at Kilnsey maybe) it should be left alone; otherwise why not regrade Zoolook as 8a+ and GBH as 8a :shrug:
Baboo should've been left as 7c+. I don't think Soft Option is blatantly over graded - I've only met one person who thought it was 7c+, it's pretty fair at middle of the grade 8a.
GBH is bottom of the grade 8a+, but now it seems that people have started traversing into Baboo to miss out the first hard moves, so should it be downgraded? The same is also true on Mid Ledge where people arc out right into the maximum, and Energy Vampire where people 'Gaston' in from the start of Overnite, missing out the hardest moves on the route.
A lot of limestone routes are basically eliminates - you can traverse onto other routes (doesn't always make it easier obviously), do you downgrade accordingly or describe the original the way they were originally done? The latter option is more in keeping with the original concept of sport climbing as the pursuit of difficulty.
As long as the guide isn't full of pointless link ups and variations that dilute the original lines, I won't be too concerned.
-
New Age Traveller; it's certainly the absolute bottom end of 8a if it is. But saying that, UK crags are pretty steely compared to anywhere else, and are we just comparing it to things like Zoolook...
Zoolook should be 8a+.
Main Overhang should be bottom end 8a?
-
New Age Traveller; it's certainly the absolute bottom end of 8a if it is. But saying that, UK crags are pretty steely compared to anywhere else, and are we just comparing it to things like Zoolook...
Zoolook should be 8a+.
Main Overhang should be bottom end 8a?
Yorkshire is only steely as long as you don't start upgrading everything, otherwise it's like trying to have your cake and eat it, besides, as Ondra said - it's not as hard as Boux.
Zoolook is a line in the sand - it's 8a. Upgrade that and you might as well start serving mousaka and baklava in the Old Barn Cafe and calling Malham the new Kalymnos.
-
Zoolook is a line in the sand - it's 8a. Upgrade that and you might as well start serving mousaka and baklava in the Old Barn Cafe.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
-
Baboo should've been left as 7c+. I don't think Soft Option is blatantly over graded - I've only met one person who thought it was 7c+, it's pretty fair at middle of the grade 8a.
GBH is bottom of the grade 8a+, but now it seems that people have started traversing into Baboo to miss out the first hard moves, so should it be downgraded?
Baboo has a Font7A+ crux section 50 feet off the deck that is significantly harder than anything on Zoolook. It is 8a.
You are exagerrating by characterising the line everyone takes on GBH as "traversing into Baboo" when all that is shared is one hold which on GBH is used as a gaston and on Baboo as a sidehold. Has anyone even repeated Mitchell's direct way of doing GBH which was given 8b in any case. As for the grade yes GBH may be a hard 8a or easy 8a+ but for me it is far harder than Zoolook though it may suit the modern climber better which is where the disagreements stem from.
If Zoolook is given 8a+ it will be a national embarrasment.
-
Baboo has a Font7A+ crux section 50 feet off the deck that is significantly harder than anything on Zoolook. It is 8a.
Baboo has a fnt7A (if you're short, the tall can follow the undercuts right at ~6c) section a few feet after an excellent rest. 7c+
-
Baboo has a Font7A+ crux section 50 feet off the deck that is significantly harder than anything on Zoolook. It is 8a.
Baboo has a fnt7A (if you're short, the tall can follow the undercuts right at ~6c) section a few feet after an excellent rest. 7c+
Whilst there is a rest you still have to do the New Dawn start which is draining. From the rest there is a pull and of course the clip. If the next bit is 7A then its top end - speak to Keith. This is not some new opinion unlike Zoolook - even Mike Owen used to say 8a.
Baboo Baboo - 8a. Get used to it or rage against the dying of the light like a sport climbing version of John Cox ;D
-
Main Overhang should be bottom end 8a?
Belayed Aaron on this yesterday and he was making some mighty walrus noises... 8a
-
Why have you deleted half my post? This isn't UKC you know. :furious:
-
Why have you deleted half my post? This isn't UKC you know. :furious:
Pure incompetence - I thought I was in my post. Soz. :kiss2:
-
it won't be as funny if I have to post it again, people will just have to try and imagine how witty and clever I was. and baboo and main Overhang are still both 7c+ so there
-
I have not done much at Malham, but I don't think Zoolook is 8a+. How can it be 8a+ when The Groove has twice as much hard climbing on it, with a crap rest in between?
50 for 5 is harder than Comedy.
-
Do people actually believe that Comedy is disproportionately easy when compared to the other 7C's at Kilnsey?
Its short, its steep and its basic and chances are (like everyone else), you've done it once too many times to be objective.
-
I agree Paul, a forum of boulderers find the short steep bouldery 7c easy shocker. Hold the front page...
I have seen a few 7b/+ climbers give it a go and get shut down by individual moves which suggests it would be tough at 7b+, the fact that people who climb in the 8's and do it as a warm up think it's soft is pretty meaningless.
-
I'm not saying I think Comedy is 7b+, I think 50 for 5 is 7c. And 50 for 5 relies as much on bouldery power as Comedy does, even if the hard bit is at the top, rather than the bottom.
-
I have not done much at Malham, but I don't think Zoolook is 8a+. How can it be 8a+ when The Groove has twice as much hard climbing on it, with a crap rest in between?
50 for 5 is harder than Comedy.
I agree and disagree with this Tom.....
Zoolook is 8a. Granted, it is hard at the grade but its still a tad easier than GBH.
With regard to the groove, its two 7c+'s with a good rest in between. The Zoolook crux is way harder than anything on the Groove.
50 for 5 is 7c.
-
Agree that 50 for 5 is 7c, and used to be better when it finished grabbing the chain :worms:
Metal Guru is probably 7b+.
Frankie is definitely 7b+ and not particularly soft at the grade.
Slabculture is better finishing over the roof and probably still 7b+ (well worth 2 stars).
Rose Coronry is the easiest of the 'easy' routes and might be 6c+ but to be honest isn't ridiculous at 7a - most of the short 7a / 7a+ routes at Malham are pretty hard if you limit is around 7a / 7b as opposed to 8a and above climbers warming up / down
Wasted Youth is pretty fierce at 7b now but probaly not 7b+.
Didn't finish New Age Traveller but was very close after a couple of days so probably not 8a and since it's really not very good it would be better to grade it 7c+ and then loads less people would bother with it.
Baboo is 8a (but I have to declare some bias :guilty:)
-
I'm not saying I think Comedy is 7b+, I think 50 for 5 is 7c. And 50 for 5 relies as much on bouldery power as Comedy does, even if the hard bit is at the top, rather than the bottom.
In that case I agree with you as well as Paul. Although I haven't been on 50 for 5 so will just have to take your word for that bit.
-
Slabculture with the Myra Hindley finish is still 7b+, and better for the finish
Wasted youth is 7b and not worth a +
Comedy is much easier than the other 7c's at Kilnsey
The crux on Baboo is 7A after a good rest with some pumpy and balancy climbing to finish
Free and Easy is 7c apparently
Taking the Space 7a+ or 7b?
The Minimum should be in at 7a
-
I'm not saying I think Comedy is 7b+
Others are though.
I first did most of these routes when I was fairly young and followed the logical progression through the grades, i.e. 50 for 5 before Comedy and found it a damn lot easier. The only routes I can think of that really didn't 'sit' right would be metal guru and Tragedy (the latter of which has had a grade change?)
-
Belayed Aaron on this yesterday and he was making some mighty walrus noises... 8a
I don't sound anything like a walrus! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW7uBlzrt2w (ftp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW7uBlzrt2w) It felt like 8a and has lost of holds since I first did it.
My two pence worth...
New Age T' - 7c+ (I did it on my second go, which is rare for 8as in this country)
Zoolook - 8a
Comedy - 7c (I still remember how hard it felt when I first did it, and is comparable to 7c stuff I've done in France)
Baboo Baboo - 7c+ (tough I know but you come straight out of a very good rest into the hard moves. Would the crux really be as hard as you say if you put those moves into a bouldering situation?)
GBH - 8a+ (I climbed it direct when I first did it - still 8a+ and I re-climbed it a couple of years ago using the BB escape, easier but still 8a+ and still harder that Zoolook)
50 for 5 - 7b+ (but top end. It has a fairly good rest before the top crux. I think Biological Need is a tad harder)
Le Lapin - 7c+ (top end. I've never been comfortable with the higher grade - it just didn't feel right[!], hence the initial 7c+?8a grade)
Zoolook has always been the epitome of stamina 8a. And I've always understood that Comedy is the epitome of short steep 7c (as New Dawn is for stamina 7c). I think it is important useful to use certain types of climbs as a benchmark for a given grade. Find your benchmarks and work everything else out around them...easy.
-
I first did most of these routes when I was fairly young and followed the logical progression through the grades, i.e. 50 for 5 before Comedy and found it a damn lot easier.
Me too, but probably 10 years before Paul B did them and therefore the following comments on the routes already mentioned should be taken in the context that holds might have come off, bolt positions changed and that I'm a short, weak, fat punter:
Rose - 6c - it's not the same grade as Yosemite Wall is it?
Wasted Youth - 7b
Comedy - 7c (you can give it 8a for me)
Pantomine - easy 7b+
Zoolook - definitive 8a back in the day although polish may make it harder now?
GBH - 8a+ (easy)
Oak - 8a+ (hard), or 8b if you are short according to Mike Owen
Baboo - E7 6c with a rock 3 on the top wall. 7c+ with bolts with easier moves than Zoolook (Shark)
50 for 5 - 7b+ grabbing chain
Metal Guru - easy 7c
Free and Easy - 7c
Taking the Space - 7b
Frankie - hard 7b+
You can upgrade them all for me mind, especially if my first 8a becomes 8a+ ;D
-
Is the crux of Baboo really Font 7A? (certainly never 7A+)
-
No, but the start of New Dawn / Baboo is?
-
No, but the start of New Dawn / Baboo is?
Maybe if you are short.
For average height, neither are harder than Font 6c.
-
Belayed Aaron on this yesterday and he was making some mighty walrus noises... 8a
It felt like 8a and has lost of holds since I first did it
New Age T' - 7c+ (I did it on my second go, which is rare for 8as in this country)
Zoolook - 8a
Comedy - 7c (I still remember how hard it felt when I first did it, and is comparable to 7c stuff I've done in France)
Baboo Baboo - 7c+ (tough I know but you come straight out of a very good rest into the hard moves. Would the crux really be as hard as you say if you put those moves into a bouldering situation?)
GBH - 8a+ (I climbed it direct when I first did it - still 8a+ and I re-climbed it a couple of years ago using the BB escape, easier but still 8a+ and still harder that Zoolook)
50 for 5 - 7b+ (but top end. It has a fairly good rest before the top crux. I think Biological Need is a tad harder)
Le Lapin - 7c+ (top end. I've never been comfortable with the higher grade - it just didn't feel right[!], hence the initial 7c+?8a grade)
I'd agree with New Age.
Zoolook must be the absolute limit of 8a
Comedy is soft for 7c, just a bit burly. 7b+ IMHO
If Baboo is 7c+, so are MO and Todall Recall as its no easir/harder than those routes.
50 for 5 is harder than Comedy.
Le Lapin is worth 8a, much harder than other 7c+'s at the crag.
-
I think the route grade voting system on other channel is useful in this debate and to gives a fairly democratic view. For example, Comedy has 107 votes registered and it is unanimously registered as 7c. 50 for 5 has 61 votes cast and the grade is equally split between hard 7b+ and easy 7c.
(Now then, I have noted down the number of votes for contentious routes and will be watching for any signs of obvious rigging)
-
If Baboo is 7c+, so are MO and Todall Recall as its no easir/harder than those routes.
I agree with you sort off Andy. I found baboo relatively easy, and was unaware of the 8a thoughts at the time. I honestly found it nearly on a par with new dawn! New dawn when tall is really awkward and draining at the roof and resting is impossible, whereas bb you can chill out as long as you like before launching into the top section, v5/6 but your fresh when you hit it.
I wouldnt say bb is the same as todall, todall is pretty cruxy and you hit a proper 6c move after a bit of sustained climbing... 8a for sure.. and a step up from bb.
Thats my lanky verdict.
-
I'd agree with New Age.
Zoolook must be the absolute limit of 8a
Comedy is soft for 7c, just a bit burly. 7b+ IMHO
If Baboo is 7c+, so are MO and Todall Recall as its no easir/harder than those routes.
50 for 5 is harder than Comedy.
Le Lapin is worth 8a, much harder than other 7c+'s at the crag.
This post can be shortened with lossless compression to "I am a thug with no stamina"
-
I'd agree with New Age.
Zoolook must be the absolute limit of 8a
Comedy is soft for 7c, just a bit burly. 7b+ IMHO
If Baboo is 7c+, so are MO and Todall Recall as its no easir/harder than those routes.
50 for 5 is harder than Comedy.
Le Lapin is worth 8a, much harder than other 7c+'s at the crag.
This post can be shortened with lossless compression to "I am a thug with no stamina"
:clap2:
-
If Baboo is 7c+, so are MO and Todall Recall as its no easier/harder than those routes.
I agree with you sort off Andy. I found baboo relatively easy, and was unaware of the 8a thoughts at the time. I honestly found it nearly on a par with new dawn! New dawn when tall is really awkward and draining at the roof and resting is impossible, whereas bb you can chill out as long as you like before launching into the top section, v5/6 but your fresh when you hit it.
I wouldn't say bb is the same as todall, todall is pretty cruxy and you hit a proper 6c move after a bit of sustained climbing... 8a for sure.. and a step up from bb.
Thats my lanky verdict.
Baboo is the hardest thing I've climbed - definitely significantly harder for me than Herbie and Mescalito which are the other 7c+s I've done at Malham but I guess they're probably considered soft touches. I'm tall but weak and found the crux properly hard despite the rest. Obviously I don't have enough experience to say whether that makes it 8a and interestingly enough I did the Ashes later that summer and can't say I found it much easier, though I find all the steep stuff at Kilnsey hard.
On the BB vs Toadal side of things TimB would say Toadal, which he ticked quickly, was significantly easier. Of course this doesn't prove anything other than the fact that trying to put an exact number of a personal experience isn't possible. And maybe that if you want to be an '8a climber' a contentious soft tick doesn't really cut it :(
-
Baboo is the hardest thing I've climbed - definitely significantly harder for me than Herbie and Mescalito which are the other 7c+s I've done at Malham but I guess they're probably considered soft touches. I'm tall but weak and found the crux properly hard despite the rest. Obviously I don't have enough experience to say whether that makes it 8a and interestingly enough I did the Ashes later that summer and can't say I found it much easier, though I find all the steep stuff at Kilnsey hard.
On the BB vs Toadal side of things TimB would say Toadal, which he ticked quickly, was significantly easier. Of course this doesn't prove anything other than the fact that trying to put an exact number of a personal experience isn't possible. And maybe that if you want to be an '8a climber' a contentious soft tick doesn't really cut it :(
Baboo is down as 8a on UKC (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=12602 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=12602)) and the majority of voters agree...who can argue with that.
-
I think the route grade voting system on other channel is useful in this debate and to gives a fairly democratic view.
(Now then, I have noted down the number of votes for contentious routes and will be watching for any signs of obvious rigging)
Hmmm, any routes that you are thinking of in the above situation? Maybe one that has had its grade altered by a certain ex-teacher getting his class to downgrade a route for their homework... :-\
-
"I am a thug with no stamina"
:whistle:
-
I'm not saying I think Comedy is 7b+
Others are though.
The only routes I can think of that really didn't 'sit' right would be metal guru and Tragedy (the latter of which has had a grade change?)
Metal Guru should be in at 7b+, Tragedy at 7c+
-
I'll throw my hat in the ring for what it's worth:
Le Lapin - deffo 8a
Private Practice - very soft for 8a+ maybe only 8a
Soft Option - 8a+ IMO compared to other 8a's
Main Overhang - deffo 8a since I pulled the pencil hold off!
New Age - 7c+. If this is 8a then so is Renaissance
Zoolook - benchmark 8a and always will be
GBH - I thought harder than zoolook so 8a+ but agreed not a hard one
Off topic but did Defcon 3 at Gordale last year and felt like 8a due to hold loss
-
Comedy, Frankie and 50 for 5 are correctly graded. In fact they're so obviously correctly graded, can't see the point in debating them.
-
So what is the consensus for the Oak and Magnetic? I think I saw somewhere that someone was suggesting 8b for the Oak and 8a+ for Magnetic :o Magnetic is way harder.
Cant remember lots of stuff but Zoolook solid 8a, Baboo seemed like a similar grade to Zoolook, Comedy deffo 7c, Ashes easy7c+??, Connect 4 8a if you miss out the first bolt.
-
So what is the consensus for the Oak and Magnetic?
8b for both.
-
So what is the consensus for the Oak and Magnetic?
8b for both.
What about Mid Ledge (the proper way)? Personally I think Mid ledge, the Oak, and Magnetic are all about the same 8a+/8b grade.
-
the Oak is a lot easier than Magnetic IMO. I used to be able to run laps on the oak but I never managed to red point magnetic. I would have said 8a+ oak, 8b Magnetic (unless there is some magic new sequence that makes the hard move easier)
-
Comedy, Frankie and 50 for 5 are correctly graded. In fact they're so obviously correctly graded, can't see the point in debating them.
this seems pretty much the theme of this thread. it all seems pretty reminiscent of the downgrade the peak for cash thread. i would imagine that adam was really after sensible comments about things that are new or are obvious anomalies/have changed and gotten easier/harder, instead he's had a fair bit of willy waving about the 30 most popular routes. (or was he! :worms:)
-
I think the route grade voting system on other channel is useful in this debate and to gives a fairly democratic view.
(Now then, I have noted down the number of votes for contentious routes and will be watching for any signs of obvious rigging)
Hmmm, any routes that you are thinking of in the above situation? Maybe one that has had its grade altered by a certain ex-teacher getting his class to downgrade a route for their homework... :-\
:yawn:
It's a good story, but there isn't actually any truth in it. GA was downgraded because it got significantly easier when a block came out. Standard 8a+.
-
Who say's a good story has to have any truth in it? I thought you thought it was 8a...
-
Who say's a good story has to have any truth in it? I thought you thought it was 8a...
I thought it was, but it fits me - particularly the knee bar which is a hands-off rest. Unfortunately guidebook authors continue to refuse to regrade for me, so GA remains 8a+ not 8a and Midledge 8a+ and not 8b.
I've learned to live with it.
-
...(unless there is some magic new sequence that makes the hard move easier)
There is actually, if your legs are bendy enough.
-
...(unless there is some magic new sequence that makes the hard move easier)
There is actually, if your legs are bendy enough.
You have to be so ridiculously flexible to do it that way that you might as well say 'there's an easier sequence if you're strong enough'.
There is another sequence where people traverse left and don't use the crux pinch for the left hand.
-
Who say's a good story has to have any truth in it? I thought you thought it was 8a...
Midledge 8a+ and not 8b.
Serps in upgrade shocker :o :clap2:
-
...(unless there is some magic new sequence that makes the hard move easier)
There is actually, if your legs are bendy enough.
You have to be so ridiculously flexible to do it that way that you might as well say 'there's an easier sequence if you're strong enough'.
There is another sequence where people traverse left and don't use the crux pinch for the left hand.
It's hardly a traverse. No worse than an 'only fits one knee bar ' on GA.
-
At least the knee bar's on-route.
-
Is the crux of Baboo really Font 7A? (certainly never 7A+)
No, but the start of New Dawn / Baboo is?
Maybe if you are short.
For average height, neither are harder than Font 6c.
:wank:
-
At least the knee bar's on-route for the weak :P.
-
At least the knee bar's on-route.
And so is the drop knee on Magnetic. You end up with your right hand in the pocket pinch. How is that off route? What about the crux work arounds on Baboo and GBH? does longer routes mean you have more left/right leeway than a short route. If you can reach it, then it's in and the route grade should reflect that if it's easier.
I still think that a one man one vote system is the most democratic way of deciding on contentious grades. It means we can forego the myriad of opinions that comes from the very personal battles that people have with the rock, whatever the grade. (phew)
-
Baboo should've been left as 7c+. I don't think Soft Option is blatantly over graded - I've only met one person who thought it was 7c+, it's pretty fair at middle of the grade 8a.
GBH is bottom of the grade 8a+, but now it seems that people have started traversing into Baboo to miss out the first hard moves, so should it be downgraded?
Baboo has a Font7A+ crux section 50 feet off the deck that is significantly harder than anything on Zoolook. It is 8a.
You are exagerrating by characterising the line everyone takes on GBH as "traversing into Baboo" when all that is shared is one hold which on GBH is used as a gaston and on Baboo as a sidehold. Has anyone even repeated Mitchell's direct way of doing GBH which was given 8b in any case. As for the grade yes GBH may be a hard 8a or easy 8a+ but for me it is far harder than Zoolook though it may suit the modern climber better which is where the disagreements stem from.
If Zoolook is given 8a+ it will be a national embarrasment.
i think i did it Tony's way...
fuck hard 8a.
i loved it, me.
-
I think its a shame that there is a way round the classic pocket pull on magnetic but if its still .8b its irelevant to this debate
-
And so is the drop knee on Magnetic. You end up with your right hand in the pocket pinch. How is that off route?
I wasn't referring to the drop knee, there's another sequence where people traverse left so that they're using that pocket as a side pull with the right hand, there might even be a way where they miss it out completely - I'm less sure of my facts on that one.
-
there might even be a way where they miss it out completely - I'm less sure of my facts on that one.
We can't have that Serps, this is the internet - definitive FACT only don'cha know?
-
And so is the drop knee on Magnetic. You end up with your right hand in the pocket pinch. How is that off route?
I wasn't referring to the drop knee, there's another sequence where people traverse left so that they're using that pocket as a side pull with the right hand, there might even be a way where they miss it out completely - I'm less sure of my facts on that one.
You end up with the pinch as a right hand sidepull on the drop knee sequence - you sure that's not what you'tre thinking of Serp? You don't traverse left though, just reach an edge to the left of the pinch instead of the pinch.
-
Is the crux of Baboo really Font 7A? (certainly never 7A+)
No, but the start of New Dawn / Baboo is?
Maybe if you are short.
For average height, neither are harder than Font 6c.
:wank:
So the crux of Baboo is only half a grade easier (or the same if you the originally muted 7A+) as the start of Austrian. Mmmm. Thought not.
-
So the crux of Baboo is only half a grade easier (or the same if you the originally muted 7A+) as the start of Austrian. Mmmm. Thought not.
More moves on Austrian but the crux couple of moves on Baboo is nearly as hard as any move on the Oak. Saying the Baboo crux is Font6c is :wank:
I'm shit but not that shit. I'll accept that the Baboo crux is 7A or even soft 7A but not 6C
-
Rose - 6c - it's not the same grade as Yosemite Wall is it?
No it isn't, YW is 7a+!
Not in a month of sundays is Rose 6c! I'm willing to accept that it could be a tough 6c+ but maybe it really deserves that most contentious of things: a split grade - 6c+/7a.
-
For the record I'm not argueing that Baboo is 7c+. Its 8a IMHO. However I think the crux is no more than 6C, straight off the deck thats what it would be. It may feel 7A because its 17m up the route.
This essentially is why giving Font Grades for sections of endurance routes is silly.
To be honest Straightened is the best way to climb that bit of rock anyway....
-
Dodger Direct - E3 5c ** - fine at this, better than it looks.
Sundance Wall - E2 5b? ** - not sure if I remember this right but could be 5b or I could be senile.
Midnight Cowboy - E3 5c *** - fine at this, bold and tricky.
Crossbones E2 6a? *** - hard crux for 5c, could be 6a.
Wombat E2 5c *** - fine at this, really steady.
-
For the record I'm not argueing that Baboo is 7c+. Its 8a IMHO. However I think the crux is no more than 6C, straight off the deck thats what it would be. It may feel 7A because its 17m up the route.
This essentially is why giving Font Grades for sections of endurance routes is silly.
My understanding of bouldering grades is pretty poor but imo the crux sequence of Baboo (from jug to to stood up with feet over the bulge) is much nearer in difficulty to the Green Traverse than it is to Razor Roof - I'd say a font 7a is pretty close.
-
For the record I'm not argueing that Baboo is 7c+. Its 8a IMHO. However I think the crux is no more than 6C, straight off the deck thats what it would be. It may feel 7A because its 17m up the route.
This essentially is why giving Font Grades for sections of endurance routes is silly.
To be honest Straightened is the best way to climb that bit of rock anyway....
:agree:
there's enough knowledge on here to just get a grade consensus with going all fontesque.
if you trav off into baboo on GBH, to avoid the mahoosive lunge / lock then you've avoided the route.... thinking about it... it probs is 8a+.
-
You end up with the pinch as a right hand sidepull on the drop knee sequence - you sure that's not what you'tre thinking of Serp? You don't traverse left though, just reach an edge to the left of the pinch instead of the pinch.
As I understand it there's another method where people somehow trav left and then reach back to the sidepull with the right hand. The drop knee method is off the big undercut beneath the pocket/pinch?
-
Yes.
-
<weak and rubbish at grading>
Toadall Recall 8a Soft (took 3 days. with some cojones would have been 2nd day)
Baboo 8a (harder than toadall recall for me, took more time to work)
Straightened 8a hard (definately harder than Baboo, despite the same rest!)
Tragedy surely hard 7c+ took Basia long to do also (despite her onsighting Comedy). other suitors at the same time echoed the sentiments.
New Aged Travellor 7c+/8a (well its my style of climbing but it still took me longer to do than herbie./toadall, although willing to conceed some of this could have been conditions related. And my insistance on clipping mid crux).
Subculture 8a (no arguments here but just adding to show my relative thoughts. i thought it middle of the road 8a, rather than historical comments of it being soft)
Soft Option 8a+ (serpico knows my thoughts on this but as everyone has One vote it was significantly harder than zero option, zero option start to the rest in the groove being about 6c+ and softoption start being something in the region of 7b+, the top of zero after the common ground in the groove being about 7a and the top of softoption being a balancy and pumpy 7bish)
</weak and rubbish at grading>
Cheers
Tim
-
Raindogs tough 7c+?
-
no.
-
A personal graded list in the 7c+/8a/8a+ region, easiest to hardest. Those in brackets are ones I've been on but not yet done:
7c+
Mescalito
The Ashes
Mr Nice
Herbie
L'obsession
Tragedy
Man with a Gun
The Maximum
NAT
8a
Main Overhang
Baboo
Todal Recall
Le Lapin
Subculture
Straightened
Raindogs
(Scavenger)
Connect4
Cold Steal
(Zoolook)
8a+
(GBH)
(Soft Option)
Conehead
GA
Overnite
-
i've not em all... but nearly...
:agree:
-
A personal graded list in the 7c+/8a/8a+ region, easiest to hardest. Those in brackets are ones I've been on but not yet done:
good list Andy, although to some extent grading is always going to be (as you say) extremely subjective; i thought cold steal was quite easy for 8a and did it in a couple of sessions, but had to have christ knows how many goes at raindogs: i think this just illustrates the gaping holes in my climbing ability though. Generally i'd go with your list.
-
Comedy must stay at 7c for personal reasons. Pantomime harder move IMO but less sustained.
Andy F can suck my balls :tease:
-
Andy F can suck my balls :tease:
I'd rather not :badidea: :ras:
-
My vote is for GBH to stay at 8a+ and Zoolook to stay at 8a. Can’t fathom why folk find Zoolook harder.
Main Overhang seemed 8a to me, certainly harder than Toadall Recall Although saying that one of the key holds on MA was loose when I tried it a few year back so it might be quite different now.
Comedy is fair at 7c.
Wouldn’t argue with an upgrade on 50 for 5.
Soft Option 8a+. I don’t understand Serpico’s comment about it possibly being 8a/7c+, is he getting mixed up with that Soft/Zero Option link up??
More Rhubarb Faster seems desperate at the grade, pretty sure it has lost holds.
I forget the name but that new one that extends WYSIWYG is 7c+ rather than 8a IMO.
Haven’t been on it but most folk seem to think Mandela is 8a+ rather than 8b.
The Bulge seemed more 7c+ than 8a to me.
Generally I think routes should be graded for the standard line rather than cheating variations. Don’t see why my ticks should be downgraded just because other people are too weak/lazy to climb things properly.
-
My vote is for GBH to stay at 8a+ and Zoolook to stay at 8a. Can’t fathom why folk find Zoolook harder.
I think that all started with that Ste Mac article where he said it was 'nearly 8a+', people leapt on that on said 'well if Ste Mac thinks it's 8a+ then it must be', which isn't actually what he said.
Soft Option 8a+. I don’t understand Serpico’s comment about it possibly being 8a/7c+, is he getting mixed up with that Soft/Zero Option link up??
The 7c+ quote was referring to Steve (Rog) Roberts who thought it was 7c+, I put it in for perspective, like Jens said in one of his few sensible moments; for a route to be 8a there will be some who think it's 8a+ and some who find it 7c+. I think it's 8a, very similar in style and difficulty to Zoolook.
More Rhubarb Faster seems desperate at the grade, pretty sure it has lost holds.
It was desperate at the grade anyway and then it lost holds - 7c+.
I forget the name but that new one that extends WYSIWYG is 7c+ rather than 8a IMO.
Dead Calm, more commonly known as 'Dead Easy'. The FA's thought it was 7c+, and I've seen a couple of people do it and be adamant at the crag that it's 7c+ only to go home and claim 8a on their 8a.nu card. There's a few too many people skipping 7c+ and going straight to 8a on this one.
Generally I think routes should be graded for the standard line rather than cheating variations. Don’t see why my ticks should be downgraded just because other people are too weak/lazy to climb things properly.
:agree: If you want the grade - do the climbing.
-
My vote is for GBH to stay at 8a+ and Zoolook to stay at 8a. Can’t fathom why folk find Zoolook harder.
I think that all started with that Ste Mac article where he said it was 'nearly 8a+', people leapt on that on said 'well if Ste Mac thinks it's 8a+ then it must be', which isn't actually what he said.
Or Garth Miller having to redpoint it and saying "Fucking hard! Is this for real!"
Or Adam Ondra "Hard one of the best and hardest 8a's"
I think it raises an interesting issue - how are sport routes graded (for a redpoint or onsight) and where the grade threshold is for the change from one system to the other? I suspect Zoolook is on that boundary, which explains why the redpointers find it 8a and the onsighters 8a+.
You guys can chunter on but until you answer the question of how these things should be graded they'll never be true subjective consensus.
-
Unlike trad routes where I think it makes sense to grade for the onsight, I think sport routes, especially in the UK (where many routes are at the far end of the hard to read spectrum), ought to be (and are) graded for the redpoint. Otherwise you could logically upgrade many of our 7b+/c routes to 8a because they are so hard to read that a climber of a given level is as likely to onsight them as they are to onsight a very readable (i.e. foreign) 8a.
-
Just to be clear I’m not suggesting foreign mid/hard sport routes are as a rule easy to read or onsight, I’m just saying there are some routes like this abroad and very few here. There are heaps of routes on euro sport crags which are just as hard to read as typical UK routes. Obviously you don’t hear about them so much because they’re not generally as popular with UK holidaymakers on the lookout for good onsightable objectives. Just felt I should point this out as I don’t want to propagate the already widely help myth that everything in eurosportland is a pushover compared to here.
-
Or Garth Miller having to redpoint it and saying "Fucking hard! Is this for real!"
Or Adam Ondra "Hard one of the best and hardest 8a's"
Being 'one of the hardest' or even 'the hardest' 8a is not the same as being 8a+. People seem to have forgotten that there are degrees of difficulty within a grade; bottom, benchmark and top end of the grade. Also people have different experiences on different routes, unfortunately it seems that now they're less likely to accept inconsistencies in their own abilities and would rather see the routes upgraded instead: 'it can't be only 8a because it took me way longer than route x...'.
There is no defined line between grades, there will always be routes that sit on that line (Zoolook isn't one of them), and that line will often shift from decade to decade as fashions change - these days we're all much stronger but not nearly as fit the guys 15yrs ago, with the current fashion for 'Macia' style training I think it could shift again.
People forget that these grades were thrashed out 20+yrs ago - they got a lot of quick repeats by locals, then the French came over and flashed everything, then Peakies came accross and tried to downgrade everything before going back to Peakshire and putting up 7c+'s called 'Yorkshire 8b'.
Surely we should be leaving these routes as benchmarks to judge future grades by.
I'll leave the last word to Ondra seeing as he's already been quoted:
"stiff, but not as hard as Boux (grades)".
-
Wo wo. Is the French grading system not for indicating the level of difficulty, all encompasing physical nature, to get from bottom to top clipping enroute, got nothing to do with how shite/good you are at reading the rock/route.
-
Wo wo. Is the French grading system not for indicating the level of difficulty, all encompasing physical nature, to get from bottom to top clipping enroute, got nothing to do with how shite/good you are at reading the rock/route.
Yes, that was my point.
-
Good points Bonjoy.
Would it not represent a more level playing field to use onsight for a grading system though?
After all, redpoint success can come after a quick work, a day or two trying or a prolonged seige so there's no standard bar 'success' to go by. I'm sure everyone has had that feeling on a hard yet well practised redpoint of the route feeling 'easy'. Repeat ascents can make it feel even 'easier'.
Did you redpoint Zoolook then Serpico? I assume that is your grade reference. My point was that it should probably be 8a for a RP, but the onsighters would argue 8a+, a different kettle of fish entirely. I was just asking how these things should be graded because it obviously makes a huge difference to the grade on certain routes. Maybe we need a poll which Adam and rockfax can use to adjust the present muddy numbers.
-
After all, redpoint success can come after a quick work, a day or two trying or a prolonged seige so there's no standard bar 'success' to go by.
Thats what the phrase "First go/try" (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=16497.25) is reserved for. :tease: :worms:
-
Did you redpoint Zoolook then Serpico? I assume that is your grade reference. My point was that it should probably be 8a for a RP, but the onsighters would argue 8a+, a different kettle of fish entirely.
I redpointed it and thought 8a, but Ondra onsighted it and also thought 8a.
If you grade for the onsight then you have to modify the redpoint grade with a luck/incompetence factor - which is undefinable, what happens when a talented onsighter happens along and makes all the right decisions first time?
Grade for the easiest way up.
-
Wo wo. Is the French grading system not for indicating the level of difficulty, all encompasing physical nature, to get from bottom to top clipping enroute, got nothing to do with how shite/good you are at reading the rock/route.
That's what I was asking. You replied with the same question.
Does anyone know the answer? Any guidebook writers out there who've thought this through?
I don't think rockfax have, Sturgeon (a classic litmus) is a different grade depending upon how you climb it.
I can't possibly comment further on the main issue of this thread until someone irons this out.
:smartass:
-
Does anyone know the answer? Any guidebook writers out there who've thought this through?
Routes are always graded relative to other routes of a similar grade done in the same style.
So if I redpoint an 8a I'll compare it to other 8a's I've redointed, if I onsight a 7a I compare it to others that I've onsighted. Even so it's still possible around an individuals max onsight level to do a degree of cross comparing ie: comparing an onsight of a 7b+ to a previous 7b+ redpoint.
-
Did you redpoint Zoolook then Serpico? I assume that is your grade reference. My point was that it should probably be 8a for a RP, but the onsighters would argue 8a+, a different kettle of fish entirely.
I redpointed it and thought 8a, but Ondra onsighted it and also thought 8a.
If you grade for the onsight then you have to modify the redpoint grade with a luck/incompetence factor - which is undefinable, what happens when a talented onsighter happens along and makes all the right decisions first time?
Grade for the easiest way up.
Ondra just took the given grade. I don't think he would've downgraded it if it were 8a+.
Good other points though. I'm not saying we shouldn't grade for the RP. But no-one has yet to answer my original question which is genuine - I don't know, does anyone?
-
Sorry you didnt pick up it was a rhetorical question/answer. The French system is for the physical nature of a route and to have an 'onsight' grade brought in the equation with the greatest respect, a bit silly. Admittadly, a line of pockets up a blank wall is easier to work out than a technical sequence as is on raindogs, but then they could be of very similar physicallity, and you could be shit hot at reading a route thus it feels no harder to you, thus to apply a grade to something would very from person to person.
-
Ondra just took the given grade. I don't think he would've downgraded it if it were 8a+.
That's just pure supposition, all he said was 'one of the hardest' he didn't say 'the 'hardest' or 'should be 8a+', and he wasn't afraid to regrade other routes; The Mandela and Ecstacy.
-
BTW i meant zoolook not raindogs :-\
Zoolook is bang on 8a. 8a when compared to as many other routes of the same grade. But which came first, chicken or egg, Zoolook or Soft Option. Id say soft option is harder for me than zoolook, as zoolook is the milestone, it puts soft option as nearly 8a+ for me.
-
and he wasn't afraid to regrade other routes; The Mandela and Ecstacy.
'The' Mandela? Is this an example of name creep? If so I think you should knock it on the head before it gets too far.
-
My vote is for GBH to stay at 8a+ and Zoolook to stay at 8a. Can’t fathom why folk find Zoolook harder.
Main Overhang seemed 8a to me, certainly harder than Toadall Recall Although saying that one of the key holds on MA was loose when I tried it a few year back so it might be quite different now.
Comedy is fair at 7c.
Wouldn’t argue with an upgrade on 50 for 5.
Soft Option 8a+. I don’t understand Serpico’s comment about it possibly being 8a/7c+, is he getting mixed up with that Soft/Zero Option link up??
More Rhubarb Faster seems desperate at the grade, pretty sure it has lost holds.
I forget the name but that new one that extends WYSIWYG is 7c+ rather than 8a IMO.
Haven’t been on it but most folk seem to think Mandela is 8a+ rather than 8b.
The Bulge seemed more 7c+ than 8a to me.
Generally I think routes should be graded for the standard line rather than cheating variations. Don’t see why my ticks should be downgraded just because other people are too weak/lazy to climb things properly.
fully agree with all that.
-
Sorry, can't be bothered to read the whole thread, so apologies if I repeat stuff.
Here's my 2 penn'orth:
GBH - I thought was 8a+, but did it the original way (i.e. straight up)
Zoolook - DEFINITELY
-
Sorry, can't be bothered to read the whole thread, so apologies if I repeat stuff.
Here's my 2 penn'orth:
GBH - I thought was 8a+, but did it the original way (i.e. straight up)
Zoolook - DEFINITELY.......
Tune in next week for the exciting conclusion to this post.
-
:popcorn:
-
GBH - I thought was 8a+, but did it the original way (i.e. straight up)
Zoolook - DEFINITELY
Eastenders Outro (UKTV Gold Repeat) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB9IHOrpj4Q#)
-
Slackers - can we have a poll please - What is the answer to the burning question "Zoolook - DEFINITELY " ?
a) 8a
b) 8a+
c) Polished & overrated
d) A couple of long boulder problems with a big rest in the middle
e) Easier than Baboo Baboo
More interestingly the latter was named after a French dog, allegedly.
-
I'm not an administrator or moderator so can't change topics.
Knock yourself out (http://docs.simplemachines.org/index.php?topic=53.0) (but don't forget to include "Pink Anasazi" and "Pain au chocolat" :P)
-
No you just act like one and what's the point in us looking up 'help' when you are permanently on here :hug:
-
... bump
What is the answer to the burning question "Zoolook - DEFINITELY " ?
a) 8a
b) 8a+
c) Polished & overrated
d) A couple of long boulder problems with a big rest in the middle
e) Easier than Baboo Baboo
More interestingly the latter was named after a French dog, allegedly.
-
Tell me again about the dog.
-
Named after two French dogs surely?
-
Maybe the dog had a stutter stutter? :shrug:
-
... bump
What is the answer to the burning question "Zoolook - DEFINITELY " ?
A gallic musical masterpiece and a middling 8a :yawn: :wall:. Maybe babou babou was Jean Michel Jarre's dog.
-
Having read today's posts.....I think Dead Calm is 8a (be it a soft one). Most people who reckoned it was 7c+ went left at the top and leapt for the comedy carabina and most people, myself included, who finished on the right and clipped the chain from a finishing hold thought it to be 8a (obviously the righteous path).
Or....I could be completely wrong :shrug:
Jean Michel Jarre :bow:
-
I thought Zoolook was solid 8a, slightly harder than Straightened, the top is hard but the start is steady and the rest is good.
I thought GBH was a fair bit harder and much more burly, I didn't sneak off left through the undercuts and backhand the Baboo jug though, I think doing that adds a couple of moves but misses out a very hard move (crux?) to the 2 finger pocket.
-
Having read today's posts.....I think Dead Calm is 8a (be it a soft one). Most people who reckoned it was 7c+ went left at the top and leapt for the comedy carabina and most people, myself included, who finished on the right and clipped the chain from a finishing hold thought it to be 8a (obviously the righteous path).
It’s a recent addition and if most people prefer to do it by going left at the top and grabbing the belay (didn’t the FA also grab the belay, admittedly when it had an awkwardly small karabiner on it) then maybe that’s what it should be graded for. :-\
-
Having read today's posts.....I think Dead Calm is 8a (be it a soft one). Most people who reckoned it was 7c+ went left at the top and leapt for the comedy carabina and most people, myself included, who finished on the right and clipped the chain from a finishing hold thought it to be 8a (obviously the righteous path).
It’s a recent addition and if most people prefer to do it by going left at the top and grabbing the belay (didn’t the FA also grab the belay, admittedly when it had an awkwardly small karabiner on it) then maybe that’s what it should be graded for. :-\
Dead Calm is better finished by going right and clipping the belay from the big hold next to the chains, at soft 8a. AFAIK the comedy carabiner (which was almost big enough to jump through) has been replaced by something small smaller.
-
Dead Calm is better finished by going right and clipping the belay from the big hold next to the chains, at soft 8a.
That's a bit harsh Andy, I've looked up 'Farnell soft 8a' and it's equivalent to Fr7c, Dead Calm is definitely no easier than Fr7c+.
-
FB - Font grade
F - French sport grades
AF - Andy Farnell grades
-
...
Ae - Aaron Egyption grades
Ill stick up for you andy
:lol:
-
AF - Andy Farnell grades, Accurate Fucking grades... :-\ ;)
-
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5230/5613029972_53bbb5bbbc_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60802105@N08/5613029972/)
trad_grade_safe (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60802105@N08/5613029972/#) by pratt2005 (http://www.flickr.com/people/60802105@N08/), on Flickr
-
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5230/5613029972_53bbb5bbbc_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60802105@N08/5613029972/)
trad_grade_safe (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60802105@N08/5613029972/#) by pratt2005 (http://www.flickr.com/people/60802105@N08/), on Flickr
Looks just about perfect. Have a wad point for accuracy :great:
-
Wow. Does that mean Adam Ondra has onsighted E10? What a hero, that must be even harder than Indian Face.
-
You've managed to work Indian Face into a thread about Kilnsey & Malham grades! I wouldn't have thought that was possible but there you go. ::) :P
-
I just applied the Godwin's Law of UKC.
-
You Nazi
-
IMO the grade of a pitch is an absolute measure, albeit it will feel different for ppl of different reaches/build. The onsightability of a pitch should not affect the difficulty of that pitch as quite simply, the difficulty does not change whether you are onsighting it or redpointing it (ie. the minimum required energy exertion to get up it without falling.) It will obviously feel desparate on an onsight relative to a well-practised redpoint or repeat ascent but by the same token, so will a 6a feel piss to a 7c climber.....the 6a is still 6a, not 5+.
The onsightability of a pitch is a different thing entirely and reflective of different styles i.e. steep tufas are more readable than desparate crimpy slabs...go figure. Just because something is not easily readable and rarely onsighted is not enough to make it harder in difficulty terms than a pumpfest on jugs at the same grade where you can easily see all the holds. Maybe the latter route would be desparate for a good UK onsighter with no fitness on overhanging rocks. I reckon part of the deal in Spain is being fit and if you are then you deserve to get a bunch of good onsights. Here in the UK, familiarity with less readable rock is a learnable skill just as getting fit can be achieved if you put the hours in.
BTW, Zoolook 8a and GBH soft 8a+ but only going direct on the crux ::)
-
8a
-
AF8a+!
-
Ok, at the moment then the main ones seem to be
NAT at Malham. Thoughts with this one are that it goes in at 7c+ but mention that it was originally climbed at 8a going direct at the top without moving left into top of Obsession.
Soft Option. I have had a few emails regarding this. People seem to think something has come off higher up since it got done originally. What are peoples thoughts on this who have done it. Grade wise?
Main overhang. Since loss of hold some people think its harder. Again, borderline 7c+/8a
Toadal recall. Another borderline 7c+/8a.
With all these borderline routes coming up, is it time we introduced a slash grade into guidebooks?
-
I'll vote 7c+ for Main Overhang. It's got a hard pull of a small sharp crimp on the crux IIRC but not quite hard enough or sustained enough overall to warrant 8a IMO.
-
NAT at Malham. Thoughts with this one are that it goes in at 7c+ but mention that it was originally climbed at 8a going direct at the top without moving left into top of Obsession.
By top do you mean middle?
Also, is the reason Vogue never gets a mention becuase no one does it or because everyone who does feels happy with 7c+?
-
By top do you mean middle?
Middle to top'ish ;)
-
With all these borderline routes coming up, is it time we introduced a slash grade into guidebooks?
A thousand times No.
Rodellar is testament to how split grades are pointless...go with the majority consensus.
Whats wrong with the route description providing hints to whether its soft or hard for the grade. There is way too much subjectivity to grades to start doing this......
-
Also, is the reason Vogue never gets a mention becuase no one does it or because everyone who does feels happy with 7c+?
The latter. Hard 7c+ for shorties, steady for lanksters, two totally different sequences.
-
With all these borderline routes coming up, is it time we introduced a slash grade into guidebooks?
A thousand times No.
Rodellar is testament to how split grades are pointless...go with the majority consensus.
Whats wrong with the route description providing hints to whether its soft or hard for the grade. There is way too much subjectivity to grades to start doing this......
Only a suggestion! With that sorted then, majority votes it is then. Ill try and set up some votes via the mods.
-
Sorry, wasn't tryingto be pedantic just wondering if I could finish up Obsession and still claim the tick
:clap2:
-
Ok, at the moment then the main ones seem to be
NAT at Malham. Thoughts with this one are that it goes in at 7c+ but mention that it was originally climbed at 8a going direct at the top without moving left into top of Obsession.
7c+
Soft Option. I have had a few emails regarding this. People seem to think something has come off higher up since it got done originally. What are peoples thoughts on this who have done it. Grade wise?
8a
Main overhang. Since loss of hold some people think its harder. Again, borderline 7c+/8a
Felt 8a when I did it, but apparently there is an easier sequence using some holds to the left.
Toadal recall. Another borderline 7c+/8a.
Been 8a since it was done 20+ years ago, no-one has mentioned a downgrade before
With all these borderline routes coming up, is it time we introduced a slash grade into guidebooks?
-
20+ years... fuck me... in my mind it was new route in terms of the history of sport climbing at the cove.
yet another addition to the "you know you are getting old when" thread....
BTW, it was 8a when I did it IMO, & not my style of malham climbing... so felt right for the grade. no doubt it's a different route now.
-
(http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/7259150/SAY-NO-TO-SLASH-GRADES.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Screaming-Spongebob)
-
I guess grades are subjective, but here are some of my personal gradings to illustrate the point:
Raindogs 8a
Super Cool, 8a
Urgent Action, 8a.
Ecstasy 8a+, 1/2 a grade harder than UA.
Herbie, 7c
Obsession 7c
New Dawn 7c+ no easier than The Ashes
The Ashes 7c+
Sticky Wicket 7b+
Fifty for 5 7c
Chocolate Logger 7b+
Magnetic fields, Energy Vampire, Overnight Sensation, Connect 4, The Oak all 8a+
Runs for cover!
-
This is all very interesting, but how come no one has mentioned Begozi... ?
It's a bit tough for 6a+ imo.
That is all
:worms:
-
I guess grades are subjective, but here are some of my personal gradings to illustrate the point:
Raindogs 8a
Super Cool, 8a
Urgent Action, 8a.
Ecstasy 8a+, 1/2 a grade harder than UA.
Herbie, 7c
Obsession 7c
New Dawn 7c+ no easier than The Ashes
The Ashes 7c+
Sticky Wicket 7b+
Fifty for 5 7c
Chocolate Logger 7b+
Magnetic fields, Energy Vampire, Overnight Sensation, Connect 4, The Oak all 8a+
Runs for cover!
(http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/7259150/SAY-NO-TO-SLASH-GRADES.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Screaming-Spongebob)
I agree! There is a very tedious trend for downgrading every route and boulder problem in the country. People are just fitter and stronger now (plus a little element of enjoying defaecating on another person's cornflakes perhaps?). It was a long time ago these things were done, nutrition was poor, I hear mark leech had rickets and Pete Gomersall had a nasty case of kwashiorkor.
-
There is a very tedious trend for downgrading every route and boulder problem in the country.
I thought there was a trend for upgrading currently :shrug:
How about we start a trend for leaving the grades of well established routes alone?
-
I thought there was a trend for upgrading currently :shrug:
How about we start a trend for leaving the grades of well established routes alone?
I can barely think of anything which has been upgraded. I agree with the leaving grades alone, as I said the only thing that has changed in twenty years since these things were done is people are fitter.
-
I can barely think of anything which has been upgraded.
There's been a few; Baboo, The Oak, Mid Ledge for example.
And Soft Option, Main Overhang and Zoolook are currently being championed as candidates for an upgrade.
-
Isn't it only Andy that thinks Main Overhang is 8a? Never 8a in a million years. Actually it might be if anything else comes off the crux!
-
Isn't it only Andy that thinks Main Overhang is 8a? Never 8a in a million years. Actually it might be if anything else comes off the crux!
Ive not done it so cannot offer any personal opinions, but Ru, Alan Cassidy, jon clark, and the hamer brothers all took 8a (8a votes 11, 7c+ votes 5) would at least suggest the grade is on the borderline, question is which side of the line it should be now for the majority of people with the hold loss... :shrug:
-
I guess grades are subjective, but here are some of my personal gradings to illustrate the point:
Raindogs 8a
Super Cool, 8a
Urgent Action, 8a.
Ecstasy 8a+, 1/2 a grade harder than UA.
Herbie, 7c
Obsession 7c
New Dawn 7c+ no easier than The Ashes
The Ashes 7c+
Sticky Wicket 7b+
Fifty for 5 7c
Chocolate Logger 7b+
Magnetic fields, Energy Vampire, Overnight Sensation, Connect 4, The Oak all 8a+
Runs for cover!
so you should..
that's bollocks
-
New Dawn 7c+ no easier than The Ashes
:lol:
-
Sticky Wicket 7b+
:lol: :lol:
-
Obsession 7c
:lol: :lol: :lol:
-
Super Cool, 8a
Urgent Action, 8a.
Ecstasy 8a+, 1/2 a grade harder than UA.
Herbie, 7c
Magnetic fields......Connect 4, The Oak all 8a+
:jaw:
-
Mescalito and New Dawn both 7c?
-
People loving the graing I see, some more!
Henrys Route/ or Mighty fine Ass 7c+, Space Invaders 7c+, Tremello 7c, Mescalito 7c+, New Dawn 7c+, Vogue 7c+, Baboo 7c+,
GBH 8a and Zoolook 8a (2 routes the same grade), Straightened still 8a.
Obsession 7c, 1/2 a grade harder than Chocolate logger if 7b+.
Sticky Wicket 7b+ 1/2 grade easier than Fifty for 5 if 7c, and just as hard as logger.
Harder routes get 8a+ if moves are harder than or equal to V7.
-
Harder routes get 8a+ if moves are harder than or equal to V7.
So that'll be The Groove, Ecstasy and Grooved Arete down to 8a as well.
I'm starting to look a soft grader by comparison here.
-
As stated originally, I guess this is all personal and subjective.
Ecstasy has 2 * V7 sections = 8a+ route
Groove not been on it, but I imagine like everything in sport climbing it all boils down to, if you can do the moves and have the time you can do it.
This is why I think the short routes at Malham are so unforgiving because routes like connect 4 which get 8a, just seem to stop the plodders who can do GBH, Baboo etc, because they cannot boulder the moves out. I am also a bit of a plodder by the way!
The reverse argument is that Magnetic is just a bouldering section to a short plod, is it 2 grades harder than connect 4?
Urgent Action is 8a if you consider it has no more hard climbing than Zoolook and Raindogs.
I guess I am not really ironing out anything, I agree with others who just say leave it all alone, but grade debates are interesting non the less.
-
I guess if you have rubbish technique then Preston's grading starts to make sense.
-
I'm not sure any of the sections on Ecstacy would be considered V7. You can't really grade routes based on the bouldering difficulty of the sections anyway and the grade should be based on the overall 'feel' of the route. A peak style route with a V7 start into an easy finish wouldn't automatically 8a+. E.g. Out Of My Tree - V8 into an much easier finish is 8a.
-
The reverse argument is that Magnetic is just a bouldering section to a short plod, is it 2 grades harder than connect 4?
Definitely. The hardest bit of connect four is clipping the first bolt. Magnetic is a hard move after a pretty sustained sequence and you can still fall off the top.
-
The reverse argument is that Magnetic is just a bouldering section to a short plod, is it 2 grades harder than connect 4?
Definitely. The hardest bit of connect four is clipping the first bolt. Magnetic is a hard move after a pretty sustained sequence and you can still fall off the top.
I'd say using a clip stick is easier than the crux of Connect 4
-
I'd say using a clip stick is easier than the crux of Connect 4
i don't know about that; those beta sticks are pretty dodgy these days. Still though it's not quite V7, so it can't be more than HVS, can it? And using a branch and some tape old school style ... that's even harder than soft option, but about the same as Consenting Adults.
-
I'd say using a clip stick is easier than the crux of Connect 4
That' cheating :no:
-
Given the release of the new Rockfax Yorkshire Limestone has there any been grade shift in actual print? Always nice to see an upgrade!
As there hasn't been a Yorks Limestone route guide for a year or two / ten? I'm intrigued. Has anyone got a copy yet?
-
I had a flick through and noticed that Cry Freedom was 8c and Unjustified 8b+, Dalliance 8b if you go right at the top. Didn't notice any of the 8bs mentioned on this thread having been downgraded but I might be wrong.
-
Dalliance 8b if you go right at the top.
From what I could see of this method when I did the normal version, the 'right-hand version' might better be described as 'climbing into the route to the right, then traversing the top of the crag back left to the belay' IMO...