[slackline]

After all, redpoint success can come after a quick work, a day or two trying or a prolonged seige so there's no standard bar 'success' to go by.

Thats what the phrase "First go/try" is reserved for. 

[Serpico]

Did you redpoint Zoolook then Serpico? I assume that is your grade reference. My point was that it should probably be 8a for a RP, but the onsighters would argue 8a+, a different kettle of fish entirely.

I redpointed it and thought 8a, but Ondra onsighted it and also thought 8a.
If you grade for the onsight then you have to modify the redpoint grade with a luck/incompetence factor - which is undefinable, what happens when a talented onsighter happens along and makes all the right decisions first time?
Grade for the easiest way up.

[priscilla wimbush]

Wo wo. Is the French grading system not for indicating the level of difficulty, all encompasing physical nature, to get from bottom to top clipping enroute, got nothing to do with how shite/good you are at reading the rock/route.

That's what I was asking. You replied with the same question.
Does anyone know the answer? Any guidebook writers out there who've thought this through?
I don't think rockfax have, Sturgeon (a classic litmus) is a different grade depending upon how you climb it.
I can't possibly comment further on the main issue of this thread until someone irons this out.
 

[Serpico]

Does anyone know the answer? Any guidebook writers out there who've thought this through?

Routes are always graded relative to other routes of a similar grade done in the same style.
So if I redpoint an 8a I'll compare it to other 8a's I've redointed, if I onsight a 7a I compare it to others that I've onsighted. Even so it's still possible around an individuals max onsight level to do a degree of cross comparing ie: comparing an onsight of a 7b+ to a previous 7b+ redpoint.

[priscilla wimbush]

Did you redpoint Zoolook then Serpico? I assume that is your grade reference. My point was that it should probably be 8a for a RP, but the onsighters would argue 8a+, a different kettle of fish entirely.

I redpointed it and thought 8a, but Ondra onsighted it and also thought 8a.
If you grade for the onsight then you have to modify the redpoint grade with a luck/incompetence factor - which is undefinable, what happens when a talented onsighter happens along and makes all the right decisions first time?
Grade for the easiest way up.

Ondra just took the given grade. I don't think he would've downgraded it if it were 8a+.
Good other points though. I'm not saying we shouldn't grade for the RP. But no-one has yet to answer my original question which is genuine - I don't know, does anyone?

[Probes]

Sorry you didnt pick up it was a rhetorical question/answer. The French system is for the physical nature of a route and to have an 'onsight' grade brought in the equation with the greatest respect, a bit silly. Admittadly, a line of pockets up a blank wall is easier to work out than a technical sequence as is on raindogs, but then they could be of very similar physicallity, and you could be shit hot at reading a route thus it feels no harder to you, thus to apply a grade to something would very from person to person.

[Serpico]

Ondra just took the given grade. I don't think he would've downgraded it if it were 8a+.

That's just pure supposition, all he said was 'one of the hardest' he didn't say 'the 'hardest' or 'should be 8a+', and he wasn't afraid to regrade other routes; The Mandela and Ecstacy.

[Probes]

BTW i meant zoolook not raindogs 

Zoolook is bang on 8a. 8a when compared to as many other routes of the same grade. But which came first, chicken or egg, Zoolook or Soft Option. Id say soft option is harder for me than zoolook, as zoolook is the milestone, it puts soft option as nearly 8a+ for me.

[Teaboy]

and he wasn't afraid to regrade other routes; The Mandela and Ecstacy.

'The' Mandela? Is this an example of name creep? If so I think you should knock it on the head before it gets too far.

[fatdoc]

My vote is for GBH to stay at 8a+ and Zoolook to stay at 8a. Can’t fathom why folk find Zoolook harder.
Main Overhang seemed 8a to me, certainly harder than Toadall Recall Although saying that one of the key holds on MA was loose when I tried it a few year back so it might be quite different now.
Comedy is fair at 7c.
Wouldn’t argue with an upgrade on 50 for 5.
Soft Option 8a+. I don’t understand Serpico’s comment about it possibly being 8a/7c+, is he getting mixed up with that Soft/Zero Option link up??
More Rhubarb Faster seems desperate at the grade, pretty sure it has lost holds.
I forget the name but that new one that extends WYSIWYG is 7c+ rather than 8a IMO.
Haven’t been on it but most folk seem to think Mandela is 8a+ rather than 8b.
The Bulge seemed more 7c+ than 8a to me.

Generally I think routes should be graded for the standard line rather than cheating variations. Don’t see why my ticks should be downgraded just because other people are too weak/lazy to climb things properly.

fully agree with all that.

[The Sausage]

Sorry, can't be bothered to read the whole thread, so apologies if I repeat stuff.

Here's my 2 penn'orth:

GBH - I thought was 8a+, but did it the original way (i.e. straight up)
Zoolook - DEFINITELY

[Serpico]

Sorry, can't be bothered to read the whole thread, so apologies if I repeat stuff.

Here's my 2 penn'orth:

GBH - I thought was 8a+, but did it the original way (i.e. straight up)
Zoolook - DEFINITELY.......

Tune in next week for the exciting conclusion to this post.

[ianv]

 

[robertostallioni]

GBH - I thought was 8a+, but did it the original way (i.e. straight up)
Zoolook - DEFINITELY

[Norton Sharley]

Slackers - can we have a poll please - What is the answer to the burning question "Zoolook - DEFINITELY " ?

a) 8a
b) 8a+
c) Polished & overrated
d) A couple of long boulder problems with a big rest in the middle
e)  Easier than Baboo Baboo

More interestingly the latter was named after a French dog, allegedly.

[slackline]

I'm not an administrator or moderator so can't change topics.

Knock yourself out (but don't forget to include "Pink Anasazi" and "Pain au chocolat"  )

[Norton Sharley]

No you just act like one and what's the point in us looking up 'help' when you are permanently on here 

[Norton Sharley]

... bump

What is the answer to the burning question "Zoolook - DEFINITELY " ?

a) 8a
b) 8a+
c) Polished & overrated
d) A couple of long boulder problems with a big rest in the middle
e)  Easier than Baboo Baboo

More interestingly the latter was named after a French dog, allegedly.

[robertostallioni]

Tell me again about the dog.

[Serpico]

Named after two French dogs surely?

[slackline]

Maybe the dog had a stutter stutter? 

[ianv]

... bump

What is the answer to the burning question "Zoolook - DEFINITELY " ?

 A gallic musical masterpiece and a middling 8a . Maybe babou babou was Jean Michel Jarre's dog.

[The Aaronator]

Having read today's posts.....I think Dead Calm is 8a (be it a soft one). Most people who reckoned it was 7c+ went left at the top and leapt for the comedy carabina and most people, myself included, who finished on the right and clipped the chain from a finishing hold thought it to be 8a (obviously the righteous path).

Or....I could be completely wrong 

Jean Michel Jarre 

[willackers]

I thought Zoolook was solid 8a, slightly harder than Straightened, the top is hard but the start is steady and the rest is good.

I thought GBH was a fair bit harder and much more burly, I didn't sneak off left through the undercuts and backhand the Baboo jug though, I think doing that adds a couple of moves but misses out a very hard move (crux?) to the 2 finger pocket.

[Bonjoy]

Having read today's posts.....I think Dead Calm is 8a (be it a soft one). Most people who reckoned it was 7c+ went left at the top and leapt for the comedy carabina and most people, myself included, who finished on the right and clipped the chain from a finishing hold thought it to be 8a (obviously the righteous path).

It’s a recent addition and if most people prefer to do it by going left at the top and grabbing the belay (didn’t the FA also grab the belay, admittedly when it had an awkwardly small karabiner on it) then maybe that’s what it should be graded for.