UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => get involved: access, environment, BMC => Topic started by: shark on September 21, 2012, 12:40:47 pm
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At the last Peak Area Meet, Ian Carr who is co-ordinating the Peak Lime guidebook talked about restoring Peak trad routes that had become overgrown and/or with rotting situ gear in an organised BMC funded way. There is currently a project of this type underway which was proposed and passed by Martin Crocker - "The Avon Restoration Project" - link to the minutes and an explanation can be found here (http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=717).
Compared to 20 years ago turning up at a crag like Chee Tor you would expect to find starred routes clean and climbable because they got regular traffic. You can't make that assumption today. There is a spiral of lack of traffic = routes get dirty = less traffic = routes get dirtier. Similarly situ gear is likely to be in worse condition than back then.
Lack of traffic can also mean a loss of access to more obscure buttresses where the landowners have become used to the buttresses not being climbed on and so the precedent/momentum for access can be lost.
There are a few thorny issues surrounding restoration. Some at the meeting argued for bolting neglected routes to ensure popularity and therefore traffic whilst this was understandably unacceptable for others. Another aspect is the case-by-case decisions on how to restore routes to preserve their original characteristics which can become frought especially on cherished classic routes.
Anyway I would like to throw this open as it is sure to be re-visited at the next Area Meet.
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Bolting to ensure popularity works. I'm all in favour (obvs).
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I think something should definitely be done about this and I'd like to be involved.
Bolts could well be the answer in some cases but there are a lot of crags that just need the low traffic- vegetation- low traffic cycle breaking with a proper clean in my opinion. In some cases a decision needs to be made as to which bits are going to be left to nature and which are going to be maintained and work done to sustain this I reckon.
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It'll only be worthwhile putting the effort in to clean crags if that will result in attracting more people to the crag.
Besides which its not that essential, climbing overgrown routes can just add to the 'fun' as you can see how much vegetation you can coat your belayer in! :P
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Rather perpetuating the general vague view that trad lime generally is disappearing under ivy, I'd like this debate to concentrate on specific examples.
Last summer Chee Tor was dry and, for a while, all the E5s etc were clean and chalked. Chee Tor is not a problem in my view. Judging by the filth that accumulates across the river in one wet winter I'm not convinced long term improvements are possible here.
Similarly we visisted Central Buttress WCJ a few years ago as folk were saying if we don't retrobolt it it will be lost to vegetation. We found loose rock a bigger problem than vegetation of which there was little, with a rash of new bolts being more conspicuous.
I would suggest a yearly weekender (along the lines of the Tremadoc ones) might be a help. Probably late April/ early May?
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Never thought I would say this but having spent a bit of time at Moat Buttress WCJ and Windy Buttress (Stoney) this summer I'd be in favour of some further retrobolting on a route by route basis at selected locations! In my opinion it has worked brilliantly in these two places. I don't believe I or anyone else (ok maybe not ANYONE!) would have bothered going there if it wasn't for the excellent rebolting effort by Kristian(?) et al. You only need to look at the logbooks for Moat Buttress on UKC (sorry!) and you'll see no activity for 20 years then suddenly 15 ticks in a single summer. Obviously UKC is far from a respository of all ascents, but it is a useful indicator in this case.
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I don't think anyone is suggesting retrobolting shit on stoney or Chee tor, they were talking about shit trad butresses that literally nobody has touched in say a decade or more.
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Never thought I would say this but having spent a bit of time at Moat Buttress WCJ and Windy Buttress (Stoney) this summer I'd be in favour of some further retrobolting on a route by route basis at selected locations! In my opinion it has worked brilliantly in these two places. I don't believe I or anyone else (ok maybe not ANYONE!) would have bothered going there if it wasn't for the excellent rebolting effort by Kristian(?) et al. You only need to look at the logbooks for Moat Buttress on UKC (sorry!) and you'll see no activity for 20 years then suddenly 15 ticks in a single summer. Obviously UKC is far from a respository of all ascents, but it is a useful indicator in this case.
AFAIK the work on Moat and Windy Buttress has been re-bolting old sport routes or bolting of new lines rather than retrobolting trad routes.
As it happens one of the example routes that Ian said he was in favour of revitalising and potentially replacing pegs with bolts was Kellogg on Windy Buttress.
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P.S. Its clear to me that the idea that just cleaning up some unpopular routes every now and again isn't going to touch the sides in the medium-to-long term. Trad limestone (espeially on the type of crag that are getting overgrown/dirty) just isn't that popular, and unlike grit its not near the cities, there is very little worthwhile under the extremes (relative to grit), it gets dirty fast, and its never going to be exciting/trendy/marketable/cutting edge like grit because there are no hard routes above E6/7 and no prospect of any in the future (as all the best hard lines are already bolted). There are not enough climbers operating in the trad E3-6 area with the appetite for peak trad lime to keep everything clean.
I'm not saying we should bolt things up instead, but I'm just saying, as I did at the meeting, that it'll take more than a few people brushing up routes to change the tide. You would need a full scale marketting offensive, supported by mags and websites and videos etc to change habbits. And still all it would take is a crap summer like we've just had for it to all be lost again. Lets face it, the '80s aren't coming back.
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Never thought I would say this but having spent a bit of time at Moat Buttress WCJ and Windy Buttress (Stoney) this summer I'd be in favour of some further retrobolting on a route by route basis at selected locations! In my opinion it has worked brilliantly in these two places. I don't believe I or anyone else (ok maybe not ANYONE!) would have bothered going there if it wasn't for the excellent rebolting effort by Kristian(?) et al. You only need to look at the logbooks for Moat Buttress on UKC (sorry!) and you'll see no activity for 20 years then suddenly 15 ticks in a single summer. Obviously UKC is far from a respository of all ascents, but it is a useful indicator in this case.
AFAIK the work on Moat and Windy Buttress has been re-bolting old sport routes or bolting of new lines rather than retrobolting trad routes.
As it happens one of the example routes that Ian said he was in favour of revitalising and potentially replacing pegs with bolts was Kellogg on Windy Buttress.
Ahh in that case sorry I implied they were retroed, if they had been I still would have been in favour obviously. Many thanks for those responsbile, pretty much rescued my summer!
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Lets face it, the '80s aren't coming back.
:'(
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Judging by the amount of traffic on Mecca recently maybe all we need is some girls climbing hard trad limestone to make it popular again.
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Kneebar traffic doesn't count remember.
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As it happens one of the example routes that Ian said he was in favour of revitalising and potentially replacing pegs with bolts was Kellogg on Windy Buttress.
Ah good, some specifics! I have done Kellogg three times in the last few years. There is absolutely no justification for retrobolting it. The initial wall is a bit bold, but no less so than in the eighties (in fact less so with pads), and at no point is it either reliant on decaying pegs (bomber wires and small cams) or suffering from vegetation growth. On that basis I will personally remove any bolts placed on it.
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Just when you think Peak Lime is going to be turned in to sport heaven, along comes someone to piss on your chips.
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Just when you think Peak Lime is going to be turned in to sport heaven, along comes someone to piss on your chips.
:lol:
I don't think any amount of bolts could turn peak lime into sport heaven
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I don't think any amount of bolts could turn peak lime into sport heaven
because it's already there?
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The regeneration of Moat and Garage Butresses has been great and more of that kind of stuff would be awesome but as pointed out they were already sport venues. I'd be well up for similar crags being regenerated into sports crags if similar crags actually exist.
This all seems a bit vague. The only crags/routes mentioned are Chee Tor and Kelloggs neither of which should be bolted imho.
The only only trad routes that could be bolted that I can think of are the odd ones at mainly sport crags; such as, piranha and white bait at rubicon. But being where they are it probably not worth as there's already some good sport nearby.
I don't go to overgrown E3-6 lime trad crags to be able to name any that might benefit from a make over. Can anyone?
The risk is crap forgotten trad crags just get bolted and turned into crap forgotten sport crags.
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This all seems a bit vague. The only crags/routes mentioned are Chee Tor and Kelloggs neither of which should be bolted imho.
I don't think anyone suggested wholesale retrobolting of chee tor (which Im sure you know has some bolts on trad routes and a couple of sport routes).
A lot of the revamping is like-for-like replacement of pegs for pegs and threads for threads where possible with consideration for using a bolt where it isnt possible. That's diffrent from turning a trad route into a sport route. A trad route with a single bolt is still a trad route.
One of the crags that has been mooted for being revamped with replacement fixed gear is High Tor which by all accounts has declined considerably in popularity in recent years.
This has been attributed in part to the increased seriousness of the crag with hold loss making some routes harder and fixed gear ever rustier.
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High Tor? Seriously? Maybe I missed the glory days of the eighties when every route was a line of chalked bomber holds with occasional gleaming pegs, but I suspect it was much as it is now, ie fine.
Having gone out there these last few years looking at these 'problem' crags, I am increasingly of the opinion what we have is a deterioration of the climbing culture (not just popularity, reputation etc) of a route rather than the physical part.
The last couple of years we've had 'reports' of High tor being retrobolted, and everyone shaking their heads with resignation. Now apparently its deserted and crumbling! If you were cynical you might think it was all designed to make it less offensive when it happens...
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Similarly we visisted Central Buttress WCJ a few years ago as folk were saying if we don't retrobolt it it will be lost to vegetation. We found loose rock a bigger problem than vegetation of which there was little, with a rash of new bolts being more conspicuous.
<indignant> No, ‘folk’ where saying, if irreplaceable (due to blocked/broken placement) pegs are not replaced with bolts, where it can be agreed that the quality and lack of alternative pro justify it, then the routes will either never get climbed or eventually get retrobolted. Which is exactly what has happened there and elsewhere (e.g. White Gold on Chee Tor). Somewhat more nuanced than your mischaracterisation. I’m pretty sure I, sorry ‘folk’, never claimed vegetation was a bigger issue than looseness either. No wonder these debates end in polarised indecision! </indignant>
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Easily fixed. For all the untrendy, undervisited crags - how about bolting on some cheerfully coloured plastic holds (that you change around every few weeks), constructing a weatherproof dome above and parking an expresso van below the crag.
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One of the examples which was raised at the meeting was the proposed replacement of the ‘bolts’ on Darius and Lyme Crime. As I said at the time, this I think is going too far. Judgement should be case by case and based on sound criteria. Such criteria should have, among other things, the key question – Is the grade and/or quality of the route most greatly altered by either the loss of that gear or its replacement with a bolt? To my mind in the case of the above two routes I think the loss of the bolts would not make the routes much more dangerous and would not reduce the quality of either at all. In fact removal of deathtrap ancient bolts would improve the safety and quality of what are quintessential and popular trad classics. On the other hand I think addition of bolts would diminish the quality by reducing the trad challenge of routes which a competent leader can protect perfectly adequately without.
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High Tor? Seriously?
Was on high tor recently (only ever climbed there once before in the 90's) . Reckon that Darius could pretty much have been done on the pegs and threads (and bolt) that were in-situ. However, I trusted pretty much none of them.
None of the seeming hundreds of threads were trust worthy. Any peg I now treat with supreme distrust - there is no way of knowing if was placed in 1974 or not and I'm mindful of the london wall accident a few years ago (http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=44631 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=44631) ... sorry).
And I'm not sure the bolt was particularly trustworthy either, its an old angle iron type where the hole is too small to accept any modern crabs (wild country wild wires certainly wouldn't fit so it got threaded with a narrow sling). I'd say that bolt was pretty crucial to the grade staying down at E2. There's no gear after for quite some way past the crux.
Solution :-\
To keep it at the same grade, I guess it takes a local/activist/caretaker to replace threads. Pegs replaced unless near a good natural and for me - the bolt replaced with a stainless glue in.
no vegetation though.
Similar experience on Stoney this summer. However, I find a lot of folks do moan about vegetation but are seeming happy to climb past/around it and also let their seconds do this. I can often be found showering my seconds in soil and undergrowth as I lead. Even small stuff gets whipped out if convenient - from small acorns do oak trees grow.
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Just seen the above .. re Darius - I cant recall there being a bomber wire 6"'s to the left of the bolt. I recall I was pretty well adamant that I was going to some how clip that bolt despite none of my krabs fitting. Dont think that I'd have felt like that if there was a sinker bit of gear near by. I suspect the next bit of gear was a crappy thread, and the one before that etc etc.
Those that know me know I'm not unhappy to run it out, but at a certain grade, one expects a certain level of gear.
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Darius, and Lyme Crime even more so, have had shit bolts for the last >20 years, it is an assumption included in the grade AFAIK. Both have other gear nearby and would , I think, still remain the same grade and popular if/when the bolts disappear for whatever reason.
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<indignant> I’m pretty sure I, sorry ‘folk’, never claimed vegetation was a bigger issue than looseness either. No wonder these debates end in polarised indecision! </indignant>
That's where we started yes, but it the debate immediately fanned out into a general 'its all going to grass' moan. The irony of that debate was that when we got there, and it wasn't long after, the bolts had already gone in. Not perhaps every one you wanted, but most - and pegs had been removed - all very confusing when trying to do a trad climb from the book. But I think the conclusion stands - ie that the crag is unpopular due to other factors than either vegetation or a lack of bolts.
One of the examples which was raised at the meeting was the proposed replacement of the ‘bolts’ on Darius and Lyme Crime. As I said at the time, this I think is going too far.
Agreed. If it was possible to get the original bolt out and put a new one in the old hole, I wouldn't have too much beef. But I'd be very much opposed to any new holes being drilled on the main section of High Tor. I don't like the lower off on the Original route/ Supersonic ledge either.
The justification for such bolts seems to get more tenuous every year. I'd have more respect for folk if they'd just say 'I think High Tor would be better as a sport crag', and we could argue the merits of that instead of these daft stories of decline.
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It’s a long time since I did Darius, my recollection is off a thread (in good rock) not very far below the bolt.
Sam - Are you saying the placement is shit or the rope/sling tied through it? Obviously one is easily sorted, the other not.
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:devangel:
Reckon that Darius could pretty much have been done on the pegs and threads (and bolt) that were in-situ. However, I trusted pretty much none of them.
Indeed, and this is true for Scoop wall and many other Peak classics. Yet decent gear abounds with a modern rack. We should be looking to take stuff out of these routes, not put more in.
Darius, and Lyme Crime even more so, have had shit bolts for the last >20 years, it is an assumption included in the grade AFAIK. Both have other gear nearby and would , I think, still remain the same grade and popular if/when the bolts disappear for whatever reason.
Not sure about Lyme, but the direct finish on Darius has good threads, plus small hex/ tricams about 6 foot right and slightly below the bolt. After the initial move I'd judge the top bit to be easier if anything (original finish is quite tiring) but the E3 grade seemed fair. That said I usually do it as a single 55m pitch nowadays which is top end E2 anyway.
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<indignant> I’m pretty sure I, sorry ‘folk’, never claimed vegetation was a bigger issue than looseness either. No wonder these debates end in polarised indecision! </indignant>
That's where we started yes, but it the debate immediately fanned out into a general 'its all going to grass' moan. The irony of that debate was that when we got there, and it wasn't long after, the bolts had already gone in. Not perhaps every one you wanted, but most - and pegs had been removed - all very confusing when trying to do a trad climb from the book. But I think the conclusion stands - ie that the crag is unpopular due to other factors than either vegetation or a lack of bolts.
One peg on St Paul (?) fell out by hand when i pulled on it. Seb Grieve later replaced with a bolt. Personally I'd have prefered it left without.
My specific beef at CB was a route called That'll do Nicely which remains unbolted, though I did add some new pegs (3 in differnt locations, the original route had about 6 I think)as all the old ones where rotten and the placements unreusable. It is still unrepeated and is probably >E7 now iin a fairly grim way. The climbing looks good though.
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Again it's a while since I did it but recall LC having a very unobvious friend 1.5 in a vague horizontal break not far from the bolt which is and always was a shit joke of a bolt.
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Darius, and Lyme Crime even more so, have had shit bolts for the last >20 years, it is an assumption included in the grade AFAIK. Both have other gear nearby and would , I think, still remain the same grade and popular if/when the bolts disappear for whatever reason.
Guess I'd have to go back there and look through eyes with this topic in mind. I'm not convinced that it would stay the same grade if the bolt were to disappear. It was E2 in 1992 slimestone rockfax. 20 years ago. Was the bolt considered shonky back then - probably, but I think that was an era when the 'old' bolts didn't seem 'that' old. It gets E36a if you go direct , no difference in gear as far as I'm aware - probably that you more likely to fall on the dodgy bolt from a 6a more.
Anyway - perhaps we're getting off the topic of gardening.
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I was saying the rope through the thread was shit. - easily sorted, but how long before it needs 'sorting' again, and again, and again etc.
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It gets E36a if you go direct , no difference in gear as far as I'm aware - probably that you more likely to fall on the dodgy bolt from a 6a more.
It didn't seem logical to me to clip the bolt on the direct, and hence E3. The climbing ain't much harder, and its over quicker.
Anyway - perhaps we're getting off the topic of gardening.
No we're not, as I said above this debate needs nailing down to specifics.
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The bolt on Darius was added after the first ascent "by popular demand" according to the guidebook.
Even though it changes the character I would prefer it was taken out altogether rather than replaced. Its not like you will hit the deck from all the way up there - is it?
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Fine - just give it E3 5c in the next guide. Like JB said - its top end e2 anyway when done from the deck and thats with the 'comfort' of the bolt to aim for and behind you on the run out for an e2 bit below anyway.
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I think if you took the bolt out the obvious line would no longer go out left at the top - ie you'd go up the direct. Bolder but not physically harder. So it would definitely change the character, though not as much as abbing off the ledge on Original route does. Did we come to top out or what?
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it would definitely change the character, though not as much as abbing off the ledge on Original route does. Did we come to top out or what?
The ledge used to have an iron stake with a ring driven down the back and I think people used to ab off that anyway before Seb added trhe bolt belay in the late 80's.
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Weird, I don't remember a belay being there in the mid-nineties. Maybe I just blanked it out in horror. There certainly wasn't an equalised lower-off.
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There has always been a bolt on Darius. When Drummond freed it the bolt was still used for aid. It was then climbed without mid/late 70s. It was later removed by a falling Australian I think.
The bolt on Lyme Crime has always been shit, it was a hand drilled Troll bolt. I wouldn't have wanted to fall on it in the 80s
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It was later removed by a falling Australian I think.
Eh ?
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I think if you took the bolt out the obvious line would no longer go out left at the top - ie you'd go up the direct. Bolder but not physically harder. So it would definitely change the character, though not as much as abbing off the ledge on Original route does. Did we come to top out or what?
I've spent a fair deal of time at High Tor over the past two years and I personally feel like the examples brought up at the Peak area meet regarding this work were poorly chosen.
Darius is likely to go up in the BMC guide regardless; its lost holds out left which no longer leave it as an obvious finish (IMO) and when viewed in context (i.e. compared with the other E2s and 3s at the crag its clearly in the upper category). However, this isn't a grade debate.
With regards to gear, the pocket just to the right of the bolt takes a blue or red Wallnut and its bomber, this is right next to the thread. I dare say a tricam would be damn good here too. The bolt simply doesn't need replacing.
Lyme Crime is also a poor example, the bolt resembles a pull ring from a coke can. Replacing this with anything of structural significance vastly alters the character of the route. Maybe that's a designer runout or a little contrived but this is Peak limestone trad after all.
Regardless of whether or not the belay was there for ever (on Original Route etc.) it'd be good if it is to stay for it to be of sound quality. At the minute its a bit shoddy.
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It was then climbed without mid/late 70s. It was later removed by a falling Australian I think.
There's a fuller account in Chris Craggs' '50 best limestone routes' book, and no doubt the relevant definitive guide. The bolt was wack and came out when an attempt on an early free repeat came unstuck. I can't find a cover shot of Chris' great book, but this was the sequel:
(http://simontyler.co.uk/chriscraggs.jpg)
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With regards to gear, the pocket just to the right of the bolt takes a blue or red Wallnut and its bomber, this is right next to the thread. I dare say a tricam would be damn good here too. The bolt simply doesn't need replacing.
fairy snuff.
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(http://simontyler.co.uk/chriscraggs.jpg)
There's so much going on in that picture, shallow hand tuck in tight pocket,figure hugging fibre pile, bum-chin centre-parting combo, calf high red socks over trousers, odd hand over crown jewels posture, but best of all Chris Craggs' TINY ARTISAN TEA-CUP HELD IN ONE FINGER?! Amazing.
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I was hoping to get to the meeting but got back from work too late - a shame as this is a discussion I would be interested to be involved in.
I'm curious which crags people do think are suitable for the "bolt them to make them popular" approach. On its own I don't think this is a good argument, but there are routes which are better and more logical as sport routes. The Darius bolt could go though, I'm sure there was gear nearby, a thread and a nut. I've not done Lyme Cryme, but may get a chance this weekend.
I'm not familiar with Martin's work in Avon, but have climbed a lot on GO Wall over the years and his approach made a lot of sense there, but probably more so because Wintour's Leap is an odd crag. Basically he bolted everything that relied heavily on fixed gear so that they're now proper sport routes, but it's done sympathetically to the existing trad ones. Old pegs came out, useful ones were replaced in the main. Wintour's has a fair few trad routes with the odd bolt and several abseil stations, but the terrain doesn't really compare with the good natural limestone venues in the Peak. Natural rock in the Wye Valley doesn't depend on pitons to the same extent for one thing.
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It was later removed by a falling Australian I think.
Eh ?
Quote from 'Crags'. I think the Aussie gentleman was Jon "Built like the top half of Charles Atlas" Muir.
Darius is likely to go up in the BMC guide regardless; its lost holds out left which no longer leave it as an obvious finish (IMO) and when viewed in context (i.e. compared with the other E2s and 3s at the crag its clearly in the upper category). However, this isn't a grade debate.
With regards to gear, the pocket just to the right of the bolt takes a blue or red Wallnut and its bomber, this is right next to the thread. I dare say a tricam would be damn good here too. The bolt simply doesn't need replacing.
Lyme Crime is also a poor example, the bolt resembles a pull ring from a coke can. Replacing this with anything of structural significance vastly alters the character of the route. Maybe that's a designer runout or a little contrived but this is Peak limestone trad after all.
Regardless of whether or not the belay was there for ever (on Original Route etc.) it'd be good if it is to stay for it to be of sound quality. At the minute its a bit shoddy.
+1 to all that.
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So the Darius bolt was placed after the first free ascent (was that Livesey - 1974, snapped off by the falling aussie and replaced again. (just trying to get my head around its history)
Ahh - from the other channel...
FA. Oliver Woolcock, Clive Rowland, Paul Nunn 1963.
FFA. Pete Livesey in 1974.
The current bolt was placed by Chris Craggs, nearly 20 years ago!
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[I have done Kellogg three times in the last few years. There is absolutely no justification for retrobolting it. The initial wall is a bit bold, but no less so than in the eighties (in fact less so with pads), and at no point is it either reliant on decaying pegs (bomber wires and small cams) or suffering from vegetation growth. On that basis I will personally remove any bolts placed on it.
Ageed. I'd do that too.
Ditto Lyme Cryme. I like the character of british trad where you occasionally climb past these rotting pieces of history, or old industrial relics (like the girders and spikes on slate). In an ethical climbing sense, replacing the coat hangar on Lyme Cryme with a bolt would be like looking at all those wooded wedges in Millstone and saying, well, someone once tried to place a piece of protection here, let's fire up the hilti...
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+1 for JB's view on this.
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+1 for JB's view on this.
Johnny 'anti bolt' Brown seems spot on with all this. Coming from the perspective of someone who enjoys and does quite a lot of sport climbing as well as trad I think the additions of bolt/replacement with shinny new bolts on things like Kellogg or Darius would be completely unacceptable and to be honest I would now not trust the judgement of people who would suggest such routes as examples for new bolts.
We need to be looking at what shoody insitu gear is now not needed (and can be protected with modern gear with minimal change to grade/character) rather than desperately trying to find routes we can add bolts to.
The sort of routes I feel may be up for consideration for new bolts (although I have not done it so can't say for sure) could be something like A Miller's Tale. I have heard this has little/no natural gear on the top just old pegs. I have never seen or heard of anyone doing this (I remember Pete Robins telling me about backing off it and saying the gear was now bad and he often has a pretty blind faith in bad gear...) According to the guide this was considered as one of/the best route on the wall. Piranha on the other hand is an awesome highball above pads (up to the break, then down climb E4 to left) which I have done a few times (was gonna say recently but looked at my guide and it was 2004 and 2008) so def does not need bolts.
ps having just had a few days climbing in Squamish I would be very reluctant to go down the road of adding the odd bolt here and there, at the rate it is going you will be able to climb the Grand Wall with just a rack of quickdraws in a few years...
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I'd agree with the millers tale thing.
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I like the character of british trad where you occasionally climb past these rotting pieces of history, or old industrial relics (like the girders and spikes on slate).
I'm with you on this, it's the historical quirks of certain routes that draw you in and add character to the route, more often than not you can fiddle in something modern to save your neck. I understand the point 'people' are making but the examples used thus far are strange to say the least.
The sort of routes I feel may be up for consideration for new bolts (although I have not done it so can't say for sure) could be something like A Miller's Tale. I have heard this has little/no natural gear on the top just old pegs. I have never seen or heard of anyone doing this (I remember Pete Robins telling me about backing off it and saying the gear was now bad and he often has a pretty blind faith in bad gear...) According to the guide this was considered as one of/the best route on the wall.
Me too, was belaying a friend on Millers tale last week who backed off having fell on the peg already. A sadly forgotten route.
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I'd agree with the millers tale thing.
I don't
I tried to clean this a while back as I thought it was precisely the type of route which shouldn't be sneakily retro-bolted.
The low peg can be backed up with a wire IIRC but the slopey moves onto the ledge need cleaning as well as the vegetation on the wall above. I would have replaced the pegs above too if required.
Unfortunately my cleaning activity interfered with someone on Hot Fun Closing so I stopped and haven't been back to finish the job.
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Good knowledge Shark,
This is the sort of thing we need to find out. I had always kept off it as had assumed it did rely on the peg but if it can be done without (and potentially gets a clean) I would get on it, the other trad routes here (Dragonfly etc) see plenty of traffic and as a crag I think it stays cleaner than many less open places...
what size wire was it?
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What is needed at Rubicon are some decent discreet lower offs, not only to tempt people on to these trad routes but also to protect the jungle above. Plus dislodging stuff onto the busy footpath.
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As these things get bogged down in detail, are there principals to discuss?
Has Peak limestone become very unpopular in the last 15 years, a trend likely to continue in the forseeable future?
Does this unpopularity lead to routes (not all, but a significant number) becoming out of condition and over time unclimbable?
Is it better that routes get climbed or is this loss just the way of things and people will always vote with their feet?
Would some degree of retrobolting lead to people climbing these routes again and keep them in condition?
Is the compromise of ethics and the loss of that historical value a greater evil than the 'loss' of the routes?
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I refer you to my post on the first page, I think the general stuff has been done to death. Yes trad lime is less popular, yes for the odd route this may be due to defunct fixed gear, yes that might be helped with the odd bolt. Okay then, which ones? I think that's where we're at here. Too much waffle has already been expended on vague generalities.
I'm a bit more relaxed about the supposed 'loss' of routes than most. I suspect in any real cases on Peak lime, routes that have been 'lost' were first climbed in the late seventies/ early eighties, perhaps had a few repeats over the next ten years, then faded away. I'm in favour of natural selection when it comes to route survival, if nobody cared before will they really now?
Again, if I'm wrong we're back to specifics: any examples of a good route that is no longer climbable due to gear or vegetation, AND is in a sensitive area where re-gardening or bolting would be an issue?
As El Mocho pointed out, whilst we all nod heads at the broad issues, the examples so far brought up are verging on the bizarre, and not doing much for the credibility of the broader arguments.
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I don't climb enough on the crags to know, but why not retrobolt things like Amazonia and Jungleland on Dovedale Church. Obviously for a million reasons - first ascensionist doesn't want it, six members of this forum onsighted them last week and they're fine etc etc - but they sound brilliant. If they were bolted up I'd love to go and try them but as gnarly trad lines I doubt I ever would. Is this the way it works?
PS I know nothing about these apart from what I saw from the deck / guidebook.
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As these things get bogged down in detail, are there principals to discuss?
Has Peak limestone become very unpopular in the last 15 years, a trend likely to continue in the forseeable future?
Does this unpopularity lead to routes (not all, but a significant number) becoming out of condition and over time unclimbable?
Is it better that routes get climbed or is this loss just the way of things and people will always vote with their feet?
Would some degree of retrobolting lead to people climbing these routes again and keep them in condition?
Is the compromise of ethics and the loss of that historical value a greater evil than the 'loss' of the routes?
Can I throw out some thoughts in a similar vein....?
Who are we serving here ? An apathetic majority who won't climb something unless it laid out on a plate?
If individuals prefer to climb Gibsonised routes in chossy quarries rather than prepared to ab down the occasional classic line to clean it of their own volition then perhaps climbers deserve to lose those routes and nature deserves to reclaim them.
A BMC effort, however well meaning, could also be viewed as a form of social engineering.
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why not retrobolt things like Amazonia and Jungleland on Dovedale Church
Not been myself, but I think we've got at least one of the FA team on the forum so hopefully they'll have some knowledge.
If individuals prefer to climb Gibsonised routes in chossy quarries rather than prepared to ab down the occasional classic line to clean it of their own volition then perhaps climbers deserve to lose those routes and nature deserves to reclaim them.
Agree completely, though I remember discussing this a few years ago at an International meet, where the counter-point was made that such a process might be a vicious circle and we'll end up with a very different scene (perhaps that was your point).
A BMC effort, however well meaning, could also be viewed as a form of social engineering.
Indeed, though I suspect like most such attempts not very successful.
Was there any specific route that prompted that comment, Ben? GW itself hasn't had anything new added to it since I first did it in 2005, and I am pretty sure there'd be a very strong reaction if a classic pitch on it like the Split Pillar or Merci Me was changed at all from its historic state (*). Generally I think you are wrong and if anything the trajectory is in the opposite direction these days. I can think of at least two examples of new bolts being removed in the last couple of years because of consensus opinion:
There was little change to GW since I was last there in 2006, possibly even more bolts on Perry's layback and the pitch above.
More generally in Squamish though there is a tendency to bang in a bolt whenever gear is vaguely tricky - the first (second) pitch of Freeway for example, and the third, and the last for starters. Our visit (my second) confirmed my opinion that the hybrid style is a tricky one to get right and in Squamish the trad-lite compromise is usually a bit on the lite side. Good to hear folk are now heading the other way though, and it was good to see the only bolts in the Bugaboos were on the raps.
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No time for a comprehensive post listing all my views on this complex topic, but I just wanted to correct one mistake from further up the thread.
It is a shame that neither JB nor El M could make the Glossop meeting, as both would have certainly made worthwhile contributions to this particular debate (though I am sure we will revisit it during future meetings).
On the issue of Kellogg on Windy Buttress, Ian used this as an example scenario in his broader proposal for the restoration of Peak limestone routes. However, he certainly wasn't advocating retrobolting the route, which both he and I led in the days before bouldering mats had been invented (quite significant on this particular route, with its completely unprotected, initial 6b crux wall).
What Ian actually said is that the first gear you get to after this very bold start is an old peg, and if the peg was knackered, and a decent equivalent peg could not be added because the placement had gone, then perhaps that might be an example where a bolt could be considered. ie. not on the bold crux wall, not on the well protected but hard (6a) pull into the upper groove (or indeed the groove itself), but a single bolt at the level of the first gear, about 20ft up.
Now it may be that folk feel that is a step to far, or inappropriate, which is fine. But please don't debate whether Ian should have suggested retrobolting Kellogg, because he didn't.
As for the issue of the Darius, Lyme Cryme and Original Route abseil bolts, I actually think that is much trickier.
I first led P1 of LC in 1983 as a warm up, and thought it was a complete path. I re-led it last year and as I set off, the only thing I could remember about the pitch was that it was a complete path. It obviously goes without saying that I completely failed to find that path, and by the time I wobbled up to clip the rusting coathanger, I was feeling just a little flustered. The tricky thing about this example is that literally one easy move higher, there are completely bomber nuts and friends, but you don't know that when you clip the bolt, which felt pretty welcome to me last year...
I remembered Darius as having decent, easily placed natural threads right next to the bolt, but when a mate did it a couple of weeks ago, and I quizzed him on this and whether he felt the bolt was necessary, he didn't think those threads were how I had remembered them. He felt the bolt was well justified (and he has on sighted 8a, albeit in a former life - I know, I was holding his rope at the time. But I digress....).
My view is probably that if you are going to have a bolt, it might as well be a decent one. Chatting to Shark at the bar last week, he said that the romantic in him wonders if you could replace the crap old bolt on LC, with a crap new bolt....! Not sure I buy that one.
One thing which might be worth bearing in mind is that if "we" decide to remove the bolt from Darius, whilst at the same time replacing the aged but crucial bolt on Circe (which I hear someone has finally sorted out, and well done to them from me), then we will undoubtedly face charges of elitism.
Thoughts....?
Neil
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Can I throw out some thoughts in a similar vein....?
Who are we serving here ? An apathetic majority who won't climb something unless it laid out on a plate?
If individuals prefer to climb Gibsonised routes in chossy quarries rather than prepared to ab down the occasional classic line to clean it of their own volition then perhaps climbers deserve to lose those routes and nature deserves to reclaim them.
[/quote]
I think that's good point - I agree with all that
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Off-piste thought: Replace Lyme Crime bolt with a normal bolt but significantly lower down, a la slate-style designer scare, to maintain the feel of the route??
Not sure where it's all gone wrong with Peak Lime, when I were a youth Chee Tor, Stoney, Dove Dale, High Tor, Willersley etc were the only places to be in summer. I mean okay like most inland limestone it's mostly a bit shit, but that doesn't stop the sport climbing staying popular. I support the ideal of cleaning (including rebolting but not retrobolting), and popularising (including climbers getting off their arses and climbing in these places) the trad, but I understand the complexity and unpredictability of the issue :ras: :blink:
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What Ian actually said is that the first gear you get to after this very bold start is an old peg, and if the peg was knackered, and a decent equivalent peg could not be added because the placement had gone, then perhaps that might be an example where a bolt could be considered. ie. not on the bold crux wall, not on the well protected but hard (6a) pull into the upper groove (or indeed the groove itself), but a single bolt at the level of the first gear, about 20ft up.
Thanks for that context Neil. No elitism here, I'm an E4/5 climber on lime and of the three times I've forced myself up Kellog's start twice I've had to hang on the crux entering the groove (for about forty minutes the first time). Despite getting pumped and scared on the initial wall the climbing eases completely and there is gear. Put a bolt there and all that will happen is everybody will stick clip it and toprope the first bit. The odd hero will try it ground-up, give themselves the willies and then go and find a stick. You'll change the route completely. The E4s and 5s off Windy ledge are a classic suite of routes with similar character. They get done regularly, and currently have only one bolt between them (Circe). Lets keep it that way.
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Not sure where it's all gone wrong with Peak Lime,
Not sure it has gone wrong, while the chossy quarries attract more attention than they deserve there's plenty of activity on trad limestone within the grades that would be affected by them(I'm guessing up to 7aish), looking at ukc logbooks stuff like like Scoop Wall, Armegeddon, Darius have about 20 ascents each logged this year & Lyme Cryme, Adjudicator Wall, Flaky Wall all have plenty too.
Compared with classic Yorkshire trad routes:
Crossbones, Wombat & Carnage <10 each
Face Route - 2 ascents
Mullato Wall - 2
Midnight Cowboy - none
Slender Loris- 1 ascent
Ok, these are classics but it's an indicator that in the mid grades there's still an appetite for it, but when you get above E5 things start to dramatically thin out, even the classics have very few ascents logged.
not sure what can be done but other areas have seen an increase in traffic after a new guide so maybe getting it sorted and making a great job of it would help?
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I'd agree with the millers tale thing.
I don't
I tried to clean this a while back
How far back are you talking? According to the other channel you lead this in 1988?
I'm another +1 for Miller's Tale. Hot Fun Closing used to be protected with wires / pegs yet got bolted (with FAs permission as I understood it). I always wondered why Miller's Tale wasn't a similar candidate. I've never seen anyone on it (or even signs that people have been on it) whenever I've been to Rubicon.
It reminds me of this thread (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18242.0.html). The suggestion of bolting a couple of trad lines at the cornice was met with general disapproval yet having spent a large amount of time at the cornice over the last 2 years I never once saw anyone on them (logbooks on the other side back this up as well). This is despite the fact that loads of trad climbers must have walked directly underneath them on their way to Chee Tor! To talk specific examples then those routes at the cornice would be obvious candidates in my opinion.
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The E4s and 5s off Windy ledge are a classic suite of routes with similar character. They get done regularly, and currently have only one bolt between them (Circe). Lets keep it that way.
Can't disagree with that JB, and I doubt Ian would either. But the point isn't whether the location of the first gear on Kellogg is a height conveniently reachable by an extended clip stick, and that if you were to put a bolt there to replace knackered and irreplaceable pegs, that is exactly what people would do....
....after all, people have been bringing routes down to their level for years. You only need to look at the bizzarre activity of headpointing to confirm that....
.....but that actually should we consider that if there is a crucial knackered old peg, and in trying to bring a route back to life, it is found that replacing it with another is impossible (it does happen), then should we sometimes consider replacing it with a bolt?
That was the point I think Ian was trying to make, and in some instances (though I agree with you, that Kellogg isn't one of them) I think perhaps we should.
As for Miller's Tale, there are decent slots and replacing the pegs ought to be eminently possible, and that is definitely what should happen. It is a fine route, and deserves to be climbed.
I agree with Kristian that discrete lower offs at the top of those Rubicon Wall routes would be a big help (you could make them really discrete by hiding them under the ivy!).
And, finally, regarding Piranha (and to paraphrase JB)...
... I will personally remove any bolts placed to protect the climbing on it.
So there!
Neil
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This may have been covered in the thread above, so I apologise if I'm repeating others points. What do people think to improving/adding lower offs to the top of trad routes at Rubicon such as piranha, white bait, jezebel etc? Not vouching for a full retrobolt of these at all, but I'd be tempted to try these routes if I knew there was going to be a solid way down; hearing stories of precarious bridging down trees hardly inspires confidence. These lower offs would be out of clipstick range and perhaps increase the popularity of these routes enough to so that they remain clean but not uber polished.
edit, suggested by neil above.
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Not sure where it's all gone wrong with Peak Lime,
Not sure it has gone wrong, while the chossy quarries attract more attention than they deserve there's plenty of activity on trad limestone within the grades that would be affected by them(I'm guessing up to 7aish), looking at ukc logbooks stuff like like Scoop Wall, Armegeddon, Darius have about 20 ascents each logged this year & Lyme Cryme, Adjudicator Wall, Flaky Wall all have plenty too.
Compared with classic Yorkshire trad routes:
Crossbones, Wombat & Carnage <10 each
Face Route - 2 ascents
Mullato Wall - 2
Midnight Cowboy - none
Slender Loris- 1 ascent
Ok, these are classics but it's an indicator that in the mid grades there's still an appetite for it, but when you get above E5 things start to dramatically thin out, even the classics have very few ascents logged.
not sure what can be done but other areas have seen an increase in traffic after a new guide so maybe getting it sorted and making a great job of it would help?
good research!
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As for Miller's Tale, there are decent slots and replacing the pegs ought to be eminently possible, and that is definitely what should happen. It is a fine route, and deserves to be climbed.
If it should happen and it's eminently possible, then why hasn't it happened yet?
I might be wrong but there seems to be a great deal of apathy here. Everyone seems to want to climb these routes, yet no one seems prepared to clean / re-equip them in the original style :shrug:
I still don't understand why the Miller's Tale example is so different from Hot Fun? I'm sure the pegs could have been replaced on that but it got bolted?
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Seem great posts on here... Liked Grimers comments - made some good broader more (dare I say) deeper overarching points.
If I could wad a thread.
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I still don't understand why the Miller's Tale example is so different from Hot Fun? I'm sure the pegs could have been replaced on that but it got bolted?
Not that I'm inclined one way or the other, but how long will the 'new' pegs (if replaced) stay trustworthy for. One tends to 'aim' for bits of fixed gear and once clipped, one tends to think, phew, safe..
I wobbled up to clip the rusting coathanger, I was feeling just a little flustered. The tricky thing about this example is that literally one easy move higher, there are completely bomber nuts and friends, but you don't know that when you clip the bolt, which felt pretty welcome to me last year...
Should a fixed bit of gear not be placed with the idea that its going to be there for a long long time and should therefore be designed to last as long as possible - isn't that why BMC have a 'better bolts' campaign.
Peg whacked in with hammer, placed from an ab rope, or Stainless glue in, whacked in with a hammer drill, placed from an ab rope.
:devangel:
both placed as fixed belays that you just clip and go and assume to be bomber. It takes no more skill as a climber to clip one or t'other.
However, one will clearly out live the other and the state of which probably be easier to assess in the future.
[/devils advocate]
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How far back are you talking? According to the other channel you lead this in 1988?
Last year.
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My view is probably that if you are going to have a bolt, it might as well be a decent one. Chatting to Shark at the bar last week, he said that the romantic in him wonders if you could replace the crap old bolt on LC, with a crap new bolt....! Not sure I buy that one.
Nor me - I was talking bollocks
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Here's one from leftfield that fits the category of 'over grown' but if bolted may see a bit of traffic. (though I doubt it would stay clean for very long)
Independence Day in Eldon Hole.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=106445 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=106445)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=139199 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=139199)
Having been avidly into caving for the last decade, I've abbed past this a few times, but I never really paid it much attention. Its been on my list of to do things all summer i.e. to go and have a proper look at it, see if its worth the effort, look for the old spit placements and see if they'll still take hangers.
Then - being one of the Derbyshire Caving Association's 'accredited' bolters, the idea of properly bolting it with glue in's occurred on the ground that it may then see some activity, however limited.
(The vast majority of popular caves in the Peak and Yorkshire Dales are bolted with DMM eco anchors or other glue ins, a national, organised, methodical approach that was started back in 1990 with great success. see http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=153 (http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=153) )
The new routes book in stoney suggests it was created as a 'sport route'
http://www.philkelly.com/rockarchivist/papers.php?PageRef=NRB/StoneyMiddletonNRB/1988/Sep1988-034.jpg (http://www.philkelly.com/rockarchivist/papers.php?PageRef=NRB/StoneyMiddletonNRB/1988/Sep1988-034.jpg)
"sorry - I ran out of bolts". It's presumably never had any ascents since Neils and Ians, as the bolts/hangers were nicked by cavers, which was probably inevitable at the time.
There are about 4 different caving routes down the hole all bolted with glue ins.
If I were to go ahead, I'd want to canvas opinion from the caving side of things as this is quite distinctly their 'turf' as well as trying to contact Malc to see if he cared (I'd be surprised if he did mind).
If it weren't for this thread, I might well have gone ahead and done it without anybodies 'permission', no-one would have been any the wiser, as I suspect cavers wouldn't care and climbers wouldn't have known about it.
I admit that even if fully bolted up, with really nice stainless bolts and a really nice belay etc etc, it would probably see very very few ascents and would always need a good clean (which at least you can do easily as you ab down the line anyway).
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I'm an outsider to the peak lime trad scene but please humour me. I've replaced/retro'd far more than my fair share of old fixed gear, more than most people ever will, and it strikes me that there's a big assumption underlying the decision to re-equip/retro which should be questioned more closely.
Assumption - 'old pegs and bolts are no longer trustworthy'. How true is this? I know from removing literally hundreds of them (pegs and bolts) on NW lime - and I'm talking Rowland Edwards era early 70's mild steel pegs and 8mm bolts with galvanised hangers on sea cliffs here - most of them have been a complete bastard to remove and weren't about to snap. There have been more than a few that did snap with just a gentle tap but they were usually very obviously corroded to within an inch mm of their lives. Or any placed by George Smith ::), never trust old bolts on a George Smith route. Bearing in mind that this is what I've found in the worst possible conditions for mild steel then I'd be prepared to bet that some of these old pegs and bolts on inland crags (I'm not familiar with the routes) are actually quite able of holding leader falls for many years to come.
Wouldn't it be worth firstly doing some tests on a a spread of these old pegs/bolts in place, to see how they perform with some high impact forces and then base any decisions to re-equip or not on something more solid than 'efics' and how the old equipment looks to the untrained eye (we're all untrained here unless someone is a specialist in carbon steel corrosion).
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I remembered Darius as having decent, easily placed natural threads right next to the bolt, but when a mate did it a couple of weeks ago, and I quizzed him on this and whether he felt the bolt was necessary, he didn't think those threads were how I had remembered them. He felt the bolt was well justified (and he has on sighted 8a, albeit in a former life - I know, I was holding his rope at the time. But I digress....).
I know we're trying to avoid getting bogged down in specifics but Darius is a poor example here and just confuses the debate, the thread is in-situ and there's gear to be had in the pockets right by the bolt. See earlier post.
You also suggest that people are considering removing fixed gear, in reality is anyone actually suggesting they'd go and remove anything (this would likely be viewed as elitist behaviour)? Surely it's more likely "we" (as you put it) may agree to leave it to rot away which could be described as sustainable and forward thinking rather than simply elitist as whatever gets replaced will one day need replacing again.
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Putting my academic head on, this would probably be a fascinating issue for a social scientist/human geographer.
At the hub of the questions being asked are issues around some main themes (and some issues that touch on both). Plenty of 'contested spaces' (ooooh!)
1. Ownership. There seems to be a strong element of who did the route first has a big say in how it should be. This is even more apparent when it comes to bolted/equipped routes as the first ascentionist (or developer) has spent on pegs/bolts/hangers etc...
2. Ethics. Whether or not a route should be bolted? - how many should be used? Should there be a mix of bolts and natural gear. Here it gets interesting as often bolts are added for what appears to be rather spurious reasons - which often (I suspect) boil down to the developer of the route not fancying that part unless its protected. Then someone else comes along and does it better/differently etc...
3. Closely linked to this is tradition. Its fascinating to see how people will clip or not clip, use or not use a peg or bit of gear depending upon whether or not others use it - almost as if its the 'done thing' or not.
4. Conservation. Again linked to ethics - how much or little the rock should be altered or changed. Interestingly the general UK ethic/feeling not to change the rock is relaxed on limestone - often justified by its more 'transient' nature than other rock types. This is interesting as limestone features are often the most spectacular of rock formations and you could argue therefore have more reason to be left alone!
Its fascinating how humans twist and change situations for their own peace of mind or to align with their feelings - as putting my Vulcan logic head on:
1. If you do not want to upset the natural beauty of a crag, you should stop people going there full stop - let alone equipping the rock.
But, if you decide the people have the right to climb, then...
2. For safety reasons you should bolt all climbing routes with a safe regular spacing (e.g. every 1.5-2m) - then it is the choice of the climber whether or not to clip.
Just my tuppence...
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Its fascinating how humans twist and change situations for their own peace of mind or to align with their feelings
:agree: Good point. I've often thought climbing ethics and the arguments behind them are pretty arbitrary, particularly regarding obtaining permission from the first ascensionist. Just because they were the first to climb it, what gives them the right to say what can and can not be done to a piece of rock?
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Of course ethics are mutable!
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Assumption - 'old pegs and bolts are no longer trustworthy'. How true is this? I know from removing literally hundreds of them (pegs and bolts) on NW lime - and I'm talking Rowland Edwards era early 70's mild steel pegs and 8mm bolts with galvanised hangers on sea cliffs here - most of them have been a complete bastard to remove and weren't about to snap. There have been more than a few that did snap with just a gentle tap but they were usually very obviously corroded to within an inch mm of their lives. Or any placed by George Smith ::), never trust old bolts on a George Smith route. Bearing in mind that this is what I've found in the worst possible conditions for mild steel then I'd be prepared to bet that some of these old pegs and bolts on inland crags (I'm not familiar with the routes) are actually quite able of holding leader falls for many years to come.
I have to agree with this. The last time we had a proper debate about this, I spent a day on Windy Buttress replacing threads and lower-offs, and trying to reduce the amount of gear. I gave up on getting any of the pegs out fairly rapidly. I was surprised by the moaning I got about removing dangerously weak threads, but that's a side issue.
Wouldn't it be worth firstly doing some tests on a a spread of these old pegs/bolts in place, to see how they perform with some high impact forces and then base any decisions to re-equip or not on something more solid than 'efics' and how the old equipment looks to the untrained eye (we're all untrained here unless someone is a specialist in carbon steel corrosion).
I'm pretty sure the BMC have already been down that line and decided its not possible to match looks to strength with any consistency.
4. Conservation. Again linked to ethics - how much or little the rock should be altered or changed. Interestingly the general UK ethic/feeling not to change the rock is relaxed on limestone - often justified by its more 'transient' nature than other rock types. This is interesting as limestone features are often the most spectacular of rock formations and you could argue therefore have more reason to be left alone!
Best not to confuse genuine conservation and ethics. We generally bolt limestone because there is insufficent natural pro. I spoke to a Natural England geologist recently and he has no problem with drilled holes or climbing on the vast majority of SSSI geological exposures (including landscape features like Malham). Limestone crags are likely to have a scientifically interesting suite of vegetation, though not in my experience on good climbing rock - usually at the top of the crag. This should be conserved where possible, making a strong argument for lower-offs at the top of the clean rock though. However I I'm also convinced its possible to regularly topout without damaging that environment - Windy buttress would be a good example where a beautiful cragtop ecosystem seems to be thriving. I think the benefits of engaging people with such an ecosystem outweigh the changes caused by them in many cases.
.....but that actually should we consider that if there is a crucial knackered old peg, and in trying to bring a route back to life, it is found that replacing it with another is impossible (it does happen), then should we sometimes consider replacing it with a bolt?
I really don't think anyone has any beef with that. The next question has to be, okay, which ones? That's where I think we're at in this thread, and as previously I've always been surprised by the examples given. Considering how often this issue gets brought up I'm amazed folk haven't got good examples in their mind. The impression I'm left with is that what they actually want is just more bolts generally. (bar Jonboy of course)
Perhaps we should have a poll of the examples given so far?
Windy Buttress - no from me.
Miller's Tale - don't know the route personally, and judging by Piranha and Hot fun which I know, this is very much route by route here. Generally, I've no beef with more lower-offs at Rubicon, though I think we should use slung trees where possible.
Eldon Hole - its a sport route where the bolts were stolen. Rebolt it, looks like fun.
Darius and Lyme - stronger argument for removal than replacement, leave as is.
Dovedale church - I've never been. I think some of the retroed routes around Reynard's would have been better left as trad, so would urge caution.
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Assumption - 'old pegs and bolts are no longer trustworthy'. How true is this? I know from removing literally hundreds of them (pegs and bolts) on NW lime - and I'm talking Rowland Edwards era early 70's mild steel pegs and 8mm bolts with galvanised hangers on sea cliffs here - most of them have been a complete bastard to remove and weren't about to snap.
That's the first time I've ever read the words "trustworthy" and "Edwards" together in a positive sense.
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I've often thought climbing ethics and the arguments behind them are pretty arbitrary, particularly regarding obtaining permission from the first ascensionist. Just because they were the first to climb it, what gives them the right to say what can and can not be done to a piece of rock?
Its an emotional stake rather than a right and yes they should have an influential say because they gave enough of a shit in the first place to put the route up - unlike the unimaginative majority who would rather climb at Horseshit than spend an hour abbing down to clean a neglected classic or seek out a new route of their own.
I spent an hour fossicking around Stoney West last winter just down from Horseshoe. There's loads that you could revitalise there such as Simon Cundy's routes and even space for some mid grade bolted routes though requiring a lot of cleaning off loose rock.
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fossicking?
Good word. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fossicking (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fossicking)
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I know we're trying to avoid getting bogged down in specifics but Darius is a poor example here....
You also suggest that people are considering removing fixed gear, in reality is anyone actually suggesting they'd go and remove anything (this would likely be viewed as elitist behaviour)? Surely it's more likely "we" (as you put it) may agree to leave it to rot away which could be described as sustainable and forward thinking rather than simply elitist as whatever gets replaced will one day need replacing again.
Not sure I agree Paul. The one thing which won't happen, particularly in the current climate of opinion, is that the Darius bolt will be left to rot away. The most likely thing which will happen is that someone (and I have no idea who) will replace it with a decent modern bolt. Frankly I am amazed this hasn't happened already, but I think it highly likely it will happen in the next 6 months or so.
My reference to removal of the bolt stems purely from the fact that whenever the opinion is stated that the Darius bolt should be replaced, a counter argument that the bolt should be removed completely is always proffered.
As stated earlier in the thread, I think there is a good argument for making sure that if there is to be a bolt, it should at the very least be a decent one. Like it or not, the bolts on Darius and Lyme Cryme are very well established and the LC one (at least) is very well past its sell-by date (to the point where someone (not me!) has backed it up with a sodding great ugly length of rope hanging down from a runner in the crack above).
At the same time, people are abseiling off Seb’s belay above Original Route virtually every weekend through the Summer (Original Route appears to be the most popular route on High Tor, according to my observations in recent years). Yet once again, this belay is definitely past its best.
Do I think these isolated High Tor bolts should be replaced? On balance, in these particular instances, yes I do.
Do I think this will be the thin end of any wedge? It won’t be on my watch…
Neil
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One thing which might be worth bearing in mind is that if "we" decide to remove the bolt from Darius, whilst at the same time replacing the aged but crucial bolt on Circe (which I hear someone has finally sorted out, and well done to them from me), then we will undoubtedly face charges of elitism.
Thoughts....?
Neil
It comes down to the question I posed earlier. How significantly does the addition/replacement/loss of a bolt change the character and difficulty of the route. The loss of the bolt on Circe would increase the seriousness of Circe a lot more than the loss of the bolt on Darius. Ergo it is a more justifiable action to replace the bolt on the former. Typically E5s on peak limestone with one bolt have that one bolt for the reason that without it you would hit the deck. This is just a function of hard routes having fewer natural placement than easier ones. The charge of elitism in this case is not a hard one to refute.
A couple of specific examples of things which I personally think justify considering for restoration:
I tend to agree that Fey, Shazam and A Basic Power Problem on the Chee Cornice qualify. The rest of the crag is fully bolted. The routes are supposed to be very good when clean. Cleaning as trad routes would be highly demoralizing (nay pointless unless time is your oyster)as they would be filthy again within a year. Who loses?
As mentioned before, That'll Do Nicely at Central Buttress - once a *** E5 with lots of pegs. Pegs not replaceable. Major hold loss has rendered it a very different (harder) climb since the FA. The nature of the rock means it will be to some extent always unpredictably loose, hence not appealing as a hard trad line with very bad gear (in my experience most hard trad climbers are saner than you might imagine when it comes to hard moves on snappy rock with no gear). Despite all this the climb looks excellent.
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It comes down to the question I posed earlier. How significantly does the addition/replacement/loss of a bolt change the character and difficulty of the route. The loss of the bolt on Circe would increase the seriousness of Circe a lot more than the loss of the bolt on Darius. Ergo it is a more justifiable action to replace the bolt on the former. Typically E5s on peak limestone with one bolt have that one bolt for the reason that without it you would hit the deck. This is just a function of hard routes having fewer natural placement than easier ones. The charge of elitism in this case is not a hard one to refute.
A couple of specific examples of things which I personally think justify considering for restoration:
I tend to agree that Fey, Shazam and A Basic Power Problem on the Chee Cornice qualify. The rest of the crag is fully bolted. The routes are supposed to be very good when clean. Cleaning as trad routes would be highly demoralizing (nay pointless unless time is your oyster)as they would be filthy again within a year. Who loses?
As mentioned before, That'll Do Nicely at Central Buttress - once a *** E5 with lots of pegs.
I agree with all of that, though have no experience of the latter CB route, your argument sounds sensible and compelling.
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I agree with all of that, though have no experience of the latter CB route...
I do. I made the second ascent of That'll Do Nicely at a time I was climbing regularly on Central Buttress.
As mentioned before, That'll Do Nicely at Central Buttress - once a *** E5 with lots of pegs. Pegs not replaceable. Major hold loss has rendered it a very different (harder) climb since the FA. The nature of the rock means it will be to some extent always unpredictably loose, hence not appealing as a hard trad line with very bad gear (in my experience most hard trad climbers are saner than you might imagine when it comes to hard moves on snappy rock with no gear). Despite all this the climb looks excellent.
Jon - whilst i have some sympathy with your argument for bolting up Fey, Shazam and A Basic Power Problem - neglected classics on what has become a high quality sport climbing crag - there is, in fact, a world of difference between these examples and That'll Do Nicely. Key to this is that the latter is on a crag which, almost unique in the Peak, is home to a whole host of hard, bold trad climbs. Some relied on situ gear, and in some cases this has gone or rusted into uselessness. In such cases, why not either try to replace the pegs, or if that is not possible, put a bolt where the peg was.
But don't be tempted to turn bold trad routes into sport climbs or you will literally open the floodgates to the small group of people who are dying to turn CB into yet another sport crag, basically because they aren't good enough to do the routes.
You say that TDN has suffered major hold loss. What is your evidence for this? When I led it, the climbing was about F7b and the protection was a combination of nuts, cams and some pegs. It most certainly wasn't a clip up on pegs. But contrary to your assertion, the rock wasn't particularly bad. There is much excellent rock on CB, and some areas where it is a bit more dubious.
But no-one should be fooled in thinking that the rock on Seb's new route to the right of Behemoth is typical of CB. It isn't. The rock on that one is much, much worse than on the traditional routes.
In summary, in my view CB is a special case and well worth preserving. Yes it has been neglected, and yes, it certainly needs some TLC. But turning That'll Do Nicely into a full sport route would run the risk of opening floodgates through which would charge the new generation of drillers, resplendent in their Sport for All t-shirts...
Neil
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re Central Buttress, from previous discussion:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,11844.msg204016.html#msg204016 (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,11844.msg204016.html#msg204016)
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My thoughts on TDN are based on having tried to clean and re-peg the route on abseil. It was one of the loosest bits of rock I've come across and a lot of what looked like important holds (and the rock around) came off during the clean.
Forget what I said re Few, Shazam etc. It was friday night booze talking. Other arguments aside I think it would breach the access arrangement for the crag.
Cure for Arapiles at the Nook on the other hand is a pegged route which should be bolted IMO.
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I would be much more concerned about the access implications of drilling at Central Buttress currently than at the Cornice. The Cornice is a special case in Cheedale being one of the few privately owned and managed bits of land. CB is on DWT managed land and highly visible, and there have been a string of issues recently in the area.
Personally I would trust Jon's judgement here, although I would suggest if we are not to slip towards full-blown retrobolting a limit of three? bolts per pitch might be an idea? I think any bolts for pegs should also utilise the longest lasting solution we have, ie glue in 'P' bolts made as unobtrusive as possible. Obvious quality and longevity arguments aside, shiny hangers give a much more sport feel to a crag, and if a trad feel is what is trying to be preserved that is important.
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Actually, given recent developments I'd suggest a complete moratorium on bolting or cleaning anywhere between Rubicon and Raven Tor would be a very good idea until things improve.
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We would perhaps be in a better position if Central buttress was owned by the wildlife trust as we have a dialogue with them. Unfortunately its ownership is unclear, perhaps CW Estates i'm told and is very overlooked by one of the primary landowners in the dale that would rather zero access.
Don't go wasting your time or good metal just yet.
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My thoughts on TDN are based on having tried to clean and re-peg the route on abseil. It was one of the loosest bits of rock I've come across and a lot of what looked like important holds (and the rock around) came off during the clean.
Yes, I think I remember you telling me that now. But it does seem odd, how it went from a pretty solid enjoyable (albeit hard) E5, to one of the loosest bits of rock you'd ever come across! You'd better take care in Gordale, or on parts of Red Wall if that is the case. They are far looser than That'll do Nicely!
Cure for Arapiles at the Nook on the other hand is a pegged route which should be bolted IMO.
Agree with that one, though it might have to be a midnight excursion...
Neil
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Take him on a climbing trip to the Llyn Neil !
What's been happening in Cheedale recently to warrant a softy softly approach ?
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I have a fair experience of looseness on different rock types. While peak limestone is not as loose per se as other places IMO it is at it's worst a nasty and unpredictable sort of looseness.
As for TDN, time, frost and comprehensive neglect had obviously done their worst.
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IMO the crucial thing is to try and maintain the character of the routes and buttresses.
1 new bolt might replace 2 or 3 pegs/old bolts on something like the upper section of Mad Max. Stick a runout in to retain the flutter factor, why not? If you replaced like for like it would almost become a sport route.
Replace the bolt on Darius as the E2 leader gets to that point and is thankful for it. It doesn't detract from the pitch, which is top end as people have already said. I don't think it would be a 'better' pitch with a scary E3 runout at 55m when your toes are numb.
I was shocked when White Gold on Chee Tor got retroed. My impression was it just needed a bit of a clean up. But someone else might have a better feel of how poor the pegs got and whether there's trad gear. But the rock is solid, it was a 3 star E4 and now it's a 6c+ on a predominantly trad crag.
Routes like Spazz Energy ruin the character of nearby routes. Darl getting retroed was a mistake too IMO.
There is the odd route (e.g. Hot Fun) that is probably best as a sport route, but retroing isolated routes a long walk from the car won't make them instantly popular.
There is also the odd quirky route (Tequila) where I do think adding a bolt at the bottom would be in character with the rest of the route (i.e. it's bolted and you don't place any gear on it, but you risk breaking your legs on the start so that makes it "trad") :-[
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Its alright maintaining the character but what about improving the character? Darius strikes me as a trad route with a historical and anachronistic bolt on it which you could argue should never have been placed in the first place. With modern gear available I would have thought it ridiculous to repeat the mistakes of the past. Doesn't matter if removing the bolt ups the grade.
Plus once you stick a new bolt is it removes any historical context. Anyone in the future years arriving at the crag doesn't find a big trad route with an old knackered bolt that is clearly not to be trusted but is part of the histroy of the route - instead they find a big trad route with one inexplicable modern bolt on it. Let me say again, lets not repeat the mistakes of the past.
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Replace the bolt on Darius as the E2 leader gets to that point and is thankful for it. It doesn't detract from the pitch, which is top end as people have already said. I don't think it would be a 'better' pitch with a scary E3 runout at 55m when your toes are numb.
I'm not sure you can justify replacing it based upon this alone; as has been said by myself and Johnny, there's gear to be had and its close enough to the bolt not to affect the character. I know one other contributor to this thread is intending to have another look at Darius and LC in light of this thread. It'll be interesting to hear his opinions either way.
We should be looking to take stuff out of these routes, not put more in.
^ This and "What Dave Said".
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I agree with Dave ^^^
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Did Lyme Cryme today with Wil and had a bit of time to think about it now.
Wil can confirm that the bolt does hold bodyweight and can be used to retreat from!!. It is possible (but tricky) to put a friend 1.5 or equivalent in a rounded slot just below to back it up.
The bolt is in a silly place as its slightly off line and doesnt protect a hard move but is still nice to have clipped. Both bolt and friend are to the left of where you climb and by the time you pass them on the right you are on easy ground which leads to bomber large friends just over the bulge. Worst case scenario you break a hold or pump out going to the bulge and the bolt breaks and friend strips (presuming its been placed) in which case you would probably hit the deck. This is unlikely given how good the holds are by then and the care you are likely to be taking.
The guidebook and rep makes it clear that you are in for a spicy time trying Lyme Cryme especially with an upgrade to E45c so anyone attempting should know the risks and what they are letting themselves in for and if they've bitten off more than they can chew they can retreat.
My opinion hasn't changed - leave it in, don't replace it / change the character . It was the first extreme I've led for 3 years and though it felt serious, memorable and thought provoking it wasn't traumatic though to be fair I didnt get pumped. The only surprise was how hard the move in the top groove was.
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So you don't replace the Darius bolt, then what about Bastille. Do you not replace the bolts when they rot. Both these routes have the same history aid rpoutes with bolts that were later freed using the bolts for protection.
Lyme Cryme has a diffrent history in that a new bolt was placed in order to climb it free. (The bolt was the Cryme, it also a play on the Gensis album Nursery Cryme)
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So you don't replace the Darius bolt, then what about Bastille. Do you not replace the bolts when they rot. Both these routes have the same history aid rpoutes with bolts that were later freed using the bolts for protection.
Lyme Cryme has a diffrent history in that a new bolt was placed in order to climb it free. (The bolt was the Cryme, it also a play on the Gensis album Nursery Cryme)
Hi Webbo,
The starting bolts on Bastille have always? been good and were replaced by Malc Taylor in the 90's so there is no issue replacing those again like for like as it wouldnt change the character of the route.
Cant recall if any of the upper bolts were crucial but I don't think so.
I assumed LC got its name for placing the bolt - proud to say I've never heard of the Genesis album.
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My point was why is it ok to replace old aid bolts on Bastille which are now only used for protection but not on Darius. Smacks of elitism. Some of the original bolts on Bastille were very hard to clip, I think too small to get a krab in?
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Because I think its fair to say as a route (not a solo) Bastille is heavily reliant on bolts, whereas Darius is not. Doing the direct finish without clipping the bolt didn't feel any bolder to me than doing the old finish with.
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Having gone out there these last few years looking at these 'problem' crags, I am increasingly of the opinion what we have is a deterioration of the climbing culture (not just popularity, reputation etc) of a route rather than the physical part.
The last couple of years we've had 'reports' of High tor being retrobolted, and everyone shaking their heads with resignation. Now apparently its deserted and crumbling! If you were cynical you might think it was all designed to make it less offensive when it happens...
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What I meant to add to the above quote was:
I tend to agree with Adam. Whilst there's always the odd example to argue about, deterioration of Peak trad routes is nothing like as bad as is becoming made out. The weather over the last couple of years hasn't overly contributed to crowds on the crags either?
On the subject of High Tor, I've personally replaced pegs and threads like-for-like on several of the classics over the years. Ironically, in terms of restoration, the bolts on Darius and LC are not good examples as in my opinion they're in no worse condition now than they were 15 years ago! I can't imagine that even the most naïve leader at E2/3/4 is going to assess either of them as having the stopping power of a new 12mm stainless anchor and so will treat them as the artefacts that they are.
Have heard at least one suggestion for a new bolt alongside the 2 golos on Brompton’s Cocktail/Grapevine to encourage interest?
If clean trad is your bag, check out the left wing: World’s End, No Entry, China Spring, YBR and Amber Gambler cleaned up/new pegs this summer.
Also, over the road, interest waning at Lorry Park - not much traffic lately?
On The Road cleaned and re-geared. E3/4 5c***. One of the best E3’s in the Peak? Sadly getting damp again now.
Supercrack properly cleaned for trad. Pristine at the moment, (only) E4 5c*** :o. One of the best E4’s in the Peak?
Edge of Darkness - cleaned to the top, much unstable rock removed but still suspect blocks at 2/3 height. E3 5b*.
Above 3 climbed on gear recently. Grade/stars confirmed. Bolts still in (for now) :-\.
Thunder Road – cleaned throughout after demise of top of starting flake. E3 5c**. (Bottom of starting flake remains in-situ – just about). Not reclimbed on gear (yet).
Finally, well done to whoever replaced the Circe bolt. No controversy over that one... 8)
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Interesting to hear you've been replacing pegs. How did you find getting the old ones out? I don't know most of the routes you mention, but I do reckon Debauchery etc would be better with a few less...
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Goof effort on the clean up `Trad Jedi'. I thought the peg on YBR, which seemed pretty crucial, was appalling when I did it a few years ago.
You've given trad grades for supercrack (e4 sounds well harsh btw!) and on the road. Have the bolts now been chopped on these routes then?
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Above 3 climbed on gear recently. Grade/stars confirmed. Bolts still in (for now) :-\
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How did you find getting the old ones out? ... but I do reckon Debauchery etc would be better with a few less...
Depends very much on the state and type of the old peg and the placement. Best replaced before they get too bad. Pegs can last many years if the placement doesn't seep. Some examples; crux of Flaky Wall - the current one has been there for about 25 years and still solid last time I passed it. The peg above the bottom flake on Perseus was last replaced about 14 years ago...that'll be due again soon. On the other hand, the 'sticky-out' blade on No Entry looked like it would tap out to allow for a newer replacement but after a couple of tonks it snapped! New one in the adjacent crack. You're unlikely to get a 'pin' type of peg out of a tight 'hole' type placement - they'll be the ones that when the eye goes, you're done... None of the Debauchery ones are mine. Can't be sure now but the Yellow Brick Road peg actually looked ok to me - don't think I replaced it. :no: Amber Gambler pegs seemed ok too?
Supercrack has no moves above 5c and you can bomber protect pretty much at will, provided you can hang around, so E4 5c in my book. Not as hard technically as other benchmark E4's e.g. Bitterfingers. Pumpy in the first 1/3 of the route but good gear all the way so not even E5 for effort. Despite the original description (...crux at the top!) the last 1/3 is very steady with good gear too. Superb, though! On the Road is probably as pumpy overall...
Even wetter now tho' :(
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Some examples; crux of Flaky Wall - the current one has been there for about 25 years and still solid last time I passed it.
When was that? Last time I passed it I think it was backed up to another peg just above it, neither looked solid to me.
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I would suggest a yearly weekender (along the lines of the Tremadoc ones) might be a help. Probably late April/early May?
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Another vote from me for this kind of activity at selected crags, especially as landowner consent would be pretty much essential in most cases? Places like Beeston (the approach to the RHS of the crag is dire) and even the aforementioned High Tor (the path under the Left Wing has all but disappeared) are a couple of examples that a 'working party' could greatly improve in a half a day?
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When was that? Last time I passed it I think it was backed up to another peg just above it, neither looked solid to me.
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Year-ish ago? Haven't looked at it very recently. From memory I'm referring to the first one at the top of the 'crux' groovelet... Think you might be on about a couple of older ones a bit higher? Could be wrong of course - will endeavour to check soon!
Remembered the Yellow Brick Road peg now - didn't replace it. It's one that's bottomed out so needs tying off rather than clipping to reduce the leverage. Used like that it looks in reasonable nick still...
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crux of Flaky Wall - the current one has been there for about 25 years and still solid last time I passed it
Passed it back in July, looked fine to me.
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am I thinking of the right ones Johnny or was that higher up on Supersonic or something?
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Look at the facts. All the best limestone cliffs in UK are mostly trad. Very rarely climbed on. Any crap that is bolted becomes popular. There is very little good quality routes for beginners. UK climbers (mostly) lag behind the European ones. In the Peak, Chee Tor is probably the best limestone climbing around - but nobody climbs on it.
Compare with Europe - good quality routes on excellent rock are all bolted from 4 .. 9a. All the cliffs are popular and kids aged 9 and upwards out climb most of the UK climbers.
If nobody is ever going to climb the routes on (for example) Chee Tor and with vegetation getting worse year on year what reason do we have not to bolt the routes. In the past (before bolts were even thought of) people climbed the routes. Nowadays the FA has been long done and is written up. So for a bit of historical significance we exclude all the future climbers from these routes? If Chee Tor was discovered tomorrow I would guarantee it would be bolted.
I have climbed more new routes than most people and I get a satisfaction when people climb the lines I created. A line that is now unclimbable might as well never have been climbed in the first place.
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Chee Tor is probably the best limestone climbing around - but nobody climbs on it.
This just isn't correct, maybe it was quiet this summer (I certainly didn't venture down there), but it was a SHIT summer. Most of the bolted stuff didn't get climbed much either.
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What Paul said. The summer before last the whole crag was very clean and popular.
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rd0 you seem to come from a position where it is important to make bits of rock popular and well used, why should this be the case? I quite like that in the UK crags have a chance to return to nature if they aren't used.
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Look at the facts. All the best limestone cliffs in UK are mostly trad. Very rarely climbed on. Any crap that is bolted becomes popular.
As Paul says this is just not true. Classic trad crags like Chee Tor and High Tor see a decent amount of traffic. Arguably less than they deserve but certainly not ‘very rarely’.
There is very little good quality routes for beginners. UK climbers (mostly) lag behind the European ones. In the Peak, Chee Tor is probably the best limestone climbing around - but nobody climbs on it.
Compare with Europe - good quality routes on excellent rock are all bolted from 4 .. 9a. All the cliffs are popular and kids aged 9 and upwards out climb most of the UK climbers.
I’ve heard some flimsy excuses in my time… Bolting Chee Tor is never going to turn a Chris Craggs into an Adam Ondra. Who gives a shit if UK average sport grades are lower than in countries with vastly superior sport crags anyway?
If nobody is ever going to climb the routes on (for example) Chee Tor and with vegetation getting worse year on year what reason do we have not to bolt the routes.
I don’t buy this thing about Chee Tor vegetation. Do you actually do any of the routes you are talking about? To my eyes it has the same level of vegetation it has had in all the twenty years I’ve climbed on it. You get a fresh crop of grass and Harebells in some pockets/flakes each year or two, mostly it is no more than a mild inconvenience to remove whilst climbing. Wholesale de-vegetation is neither necessary or desirable on Chee Tor, especially given the nature of the access and land management.
In the past (before bolts were even thought of) people climbed the routes. Nowadays the FA has been long done and is written up. So for a bit of historical significance we exclude all the future climbers from these routes? If Chee Tor was discovered tomorrow I would guarantee it would be bolted.
It might be bolted if you found it, not if I found it, or many many other peak climbers. You wrongly assume that the reason we see loads of crap sport FAs in the peak and very few trad lime FAs is primarily a matter of climber preference. The reason we don’t see great new trad lime venues being developed is that they were all developed a long time ago. The scraps that are left are in the main so loose and lineless as to be fit for nothing other than bolting.
People will climb any old shit if it has bolts in it. This isn’t a good reason to bolt up quality trad venues.
Do some of these routes again. I don’t know, maybe you’ve forgotten how good they already are. Read the comments beneath the classics logged on UKC and tell me these routes only exist for the sake of history.
I have climbed more new routes than most people and I get a satisfaction when people climb the lines I created. A line that is now unclimbable might as well never have been climbed in the first place.
So have I. This is nonsense. I have treasured memories of things which have never and may never be repeated. I have treasured memories of routes (not mine) which have since fallen down. Perhaps the only value you perceive from your FAs is in their repetitions, but you are wrong to assume this of others, or that others get no value from ascents of things they will never repeat themself. If nothing else the climbing and documentation of a line has intrinsic value in that it tells other climbers how hard and to a lesser extent how good a line is, regardless of whether anyone ever chooses to repeat it.
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Look at the facts. All the best limestone cliffs in UK are mostly trad. Very rarely climbed on.
Very rarely? Surely some mistake. Just to give 2 quick examples, Pembroke and the trad routes at high tor seem as popular as ever.
There is very little good quality routes for beginners.
Yes there is. Eg in Peak Lime: harborough, aldery (again just 2 examples)
In the Peak, Chee Tor is probably the best limestone climbing around - but nobody climbs on it.
True about the quality of the climbing at Chee Tor, which is great. But completely wrong to say that no-one climbs there. Much of last year was a washout anyway: not alot happened in Cheedale whether sport or trad. But 2 years ago Chee Tor saw lots of traffic, was v popular.
If nobody is ever going to climb the routes on (for example) Chee Tor and with vegetation getting worse year on year what reason do we have not to bolt the routes. In the past (before bolts were even thought of) people climbed the routes. Nowadays the FA has been long done and is written up. So for a bit of historical significance we exclude all the future climbers from these routes?
But your argument is wrong way around. To bolt chee tor would be to exclude all future climbers from these magnificent experiences, which to re-iterate would have been as popular (and clean) this year as last if the weather had allowed.
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:agree:
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Look at the facts. All the best limestone cliffs in UK are mostly trad. Very rarely climbed on.
Just a cursory look at the UKC logbooks proves you wrong on this. There are plenty of ticks and a substantial number of routes on people's wishlists. People don't just climb these routes, they aspire to climb them! As for Chee Tor being bolted if it were discovered now... what planet are you on?
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I think rd0 has a point (bear with me) but that point is screwed by geography...
I agree that we don't have family friendly sports climbing crags with an extensive range of routes nicely bolted from 4's to 8's etc... and I also agree this probably hinders climber development in the UK (makes it less accessible to newbies - lower grade climbers IMHO).
But thats largely because we dont have huge expanses of *sunny *dry (consistently) *good *limestone here in the UK. Most venues are smaller with a density of routes that reflects the rock type and position (i.e slab/overhanging/cave etc..) we dont really have places where there is a large 'wall space' of rock that is all of these - that would thus accommodate 8a climber and his family wanting to climb a range of things.
Thats the nature of this island!
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To be honest I just think rd0 was trolling ...
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To be honest I just think rd0 was trolling ...
Wonder who it is? Says they've climbed more new routes than most ...
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To be honest I just think rd0 was trolling ...
Wonder who it is? Says they've climbed more new routes than most ...
The only RD I can think of that might fit is Richard Davies
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Richard Dreyfuss?
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Dawkins!
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Richard Davies who put up quite a few hardish headpoint style things down Cheedale, most of which have since been retroed?
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Richard Davies who put up quite a few hardish headpoint style things down Cheedale, most of which have since been retroed?
He's a bit keener on sport these days I think.
Pretty sure this is his logbook: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.html?id=10408 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.html?id=10408)
User name: RD !
:smart:
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I just assumed it was Bill Birch, I didn't think anyone else was that daft.