[Wil]

I agree with Dave ^^^

[shark]

Did Lyme Cryme today with Wil and had a bit of time to think about it now.

Wil can confirm that the bolt does hold bodyweight and can be used to retreat from!!. It is possible (but tricky) to put a friend 1.5 or equivalent in a rounded slot just below to back it up.

The bolt is in a silly place as its slightly off line and doesnt protect a hard move but is still nice to have clipped. Both bolt and friend are to the left of where you climb and by the time you pass them on the right you are on easy ground which leads to bomber large friends just over the bulge. Worst case scenario you break a hold or pump out going to the bulge and the bolt breaks and friend strips (presuming its been placed) in which case you would probably hit the deck. This is unlikely given how good the holds are by then and the care you are likely to be taking. 

The guidebook and rep makes it clear that you are in for a spicy time trying Lyme Cryme especially with an upgrade to E45c so anyone attempting should know the risks and what they are letting themselves in for and if they've bitten off more than they can chew they can retreat.

My opinion hasn't changed - leave it in, don't replace it / change the character . It was the first extreme I've led for 3 years and though it felt serious, memorable and thought provoking it wasn't traumatic though to be fair I didnt get pumped. The only surprise was how hard the move in the top groove was.

[webbo]

So you don't replace the Darius bolt, then what about Bastille. Do you not replace the bolts when they rot. Both these routes have the same history aid rpoutes with bolts that were later freed using the bolts for protection.
Lyme Cryme has a diffrent history in that a new bolt was placed in order to climb it free. (The bolt was the Cryme, it also a play on the Gensis album Nursery Cryme) 

[shark]

So you don't replace the Darius bolt, then what about Bastille. Do you not replace the bolts when they rot. Both these routes have the same history aid rpoutes with bolts that were later freed using the bolts for protection.
Lyme Cryme has a diffrent history in that a new bolt was placed in order to climb it free. (The bolt was the Cryme, it also a play on the Gensis album Nursery Cryme)

Hi Webbo,

The starting bolts on Bastille have always? been good and were replaced by Malc Taylor in the 90's so there is no issue replacing those again like for like as it wouldnt change the character of the route.

Cant recall if any of the upper bolts were crucial but I don't think so.

I assumed LC got its name for placing the bolt - proud to say I've never heard of the Genesis album.   

[webbo]

My point was why is it ok to replace old aid bolts on Bastille which are now only used for protection but not on Darius. Smacks of elitism. Some of the original bolts on Bastille were very hard to clip, I think too small to get a krab in?   

[Johnny Brown]

Because I think its fair to say as a route (not a solo) Bastille is heavily reliant on bolts, whereas Darius is not. Doing the direct finish without clipping the bolt didn't feel any bolder to me than doing the old finish with.

[Trad Jedi]

Having gone out there these last few years looking at these 'problem' crags, I am increasingly of the opinion what we have is a deterioration of the climbing culture (not just popularity, reputation etc) of a route rather than the physical part.

The last couple of years we've had 'reports' of High tor being retrobolted, and everyone shaking their heads with resignation. Now apparently its deserted and crumbling! If you were cynical you might think it was all designed to make it less offensive when it happens...

[Trad Jedi]

What I meant to add to the above quote was:

I tend to agree with Adam. Whilst there's always the odd example to argue about, deterioration of Peak trad routes is nothing like as bad as is becoming made out. The weather over the last couple of years hasn't overly contributed to crowds on the crags either?

On the subject of High Tor, I've personally replaced pegs and threads like-for-like on several of the classics over the years. Ironically, in terms of restoration, the bolts on Darius and LC are not good examples as in my opinion they're in no worse condition now than they were 15 years ago! I can't imagine that even the most naïve leader at E2/3/4 is going to assess either of them as having the stopping power of a new 12mm stainless anchor and so will treat them as the artefacts that they are.

Have heard at least one suggestion for a new bolt alongside the 2 golos on Brompton’s Cocktail/Grapevine to encourage interest?

If clean trad is your bag, check out the left wing: World’s End, No Entry, China Spring, YBR and Amber Gambler cleaned up/new pegs this summer.

Also, over the road, interest waning at Lorry Park - not much traffic lately?
On The Road cleaned and re-geared. E3/4 5c***. One of the best E3’s in the Peak? Sadly getting damp again now.
Supercrack properly cleaned for trad. Pristine at the moment, (only) E4 5c*** . One of the best E4’s in the Peak?
Edge of Darkness - cleaned to the top, much unstable rock removed but still suspect blocks at 2/3 height. E3 5b*.
Above 3 climbed on gear recently. Grade/stars confirmed. Bolts still in (for now) .

Thunder Road – cleaned throughout after demise of top of starting flake.  E3 5c**.  (Bottom of starting flake remains in-situ – just about). Not reclimbed on gear (yet).

Finally, well done to whoever replaced the Circe bolt. No controversy over that one...

[Johnny Brown]

Interesting to hear you've been replacing pegs. How did you find getting the old ones out? I don't know most of the routes you mention, but I do reckon Debauchery etc would be better with a few less...

[Jerry Morefat]

Goof effort on the clean up `Trad Jedi'. I thought the peg on YBR, which seemed pretty crucial, was appalling when I did it a few years ago.

You've given trad grades for supercrack (e4 sounds well harsh btw!) and on the road. Have the bolts now been chopped on these routes then?

[Johnny Brown]

Above 3 climbed on gear recently. Grade/stars confirmed. Bolts still in (for now)

[Trad Jedi]

How did you find getting the old ones out? ... but I do reckon Debauchery etc would be better with a few less...

Depends very much on the state and type of the old peg and the placement. Best replaced before they get too bad. Pegs can last many years if the placement doesn't seep. Some examples; crux of Flaky Wall - the current one has been there for about 25 years and still solid last time I passed it. The peg above the bottom flake on Perseus was last replaced about 14 years ago...that'll be due again soon. On the other hand, the 'sticky-out' blade on No Entry looked like it would tap out to allow for a newer replacement but after a couple of tonks it snapped! New one in the adjacent crack. You're unlikely to get a 'pin' type of peg out of a tight 'hole' type placement - they'll be the ones that when the eye goes, you're done...  None of the Debauchery ones are mine. Can't be sure now but the Yellow Brick Road peg actually looked ok to me - don't think I replaced it.  Amber Gambler pegs seemed ok too?

Supercrack has no moves above 5c and you can bomber protect pretty much at will, provided you can hang around, so E4 5c in my book. Not as hard technically as other benchmark E4's e.g. Bitterfingers. Pumpy in the first 1/3 of the route but good gear all the way so not even E5 for effort. Despite the original description (...crux at the top!) the last 1/3 is very steady with good gear too. Superb, though! On the Road is probably as pumpy overall...

Even wetter now tho' 

[Paul B]

Some examples; crux of Flaky Wall - the current one has been there for about 25 years and still solid last time I passed it.

When was that? Last time I passed it I think it was backed up to another peg just above it, neither looked solid to me.

[Trad Jedi]

I would suggest a yearly weekender (along the lines of the Tremadoc ones) might be a help. Probably late April/early May?
[/quote]

Another vote from me for this kind of activity at selected crags, especially as landowner consent would be pretty much essential in most cases? Places like Beeston (the approach to the RHS of the crag is dire) and even the aforementioned High Tor (the path under the Left Wing has all but disappeared) are a couple of examples that a 'working party' could greatly improve in a half a day?

[Trad Jedi]

When was that? Last time I passed it I think it was backed up to another peg just above it, neither looked solid to me.
[/quote]

Year-ish ago? Haven't looked at it very recently. From memory I'm referring to the first one at the top of the 'crux' groovelet... Think you might be on about a couple of older ones a bit higher? Could be wrong of course - will endeavour to check soon!

Remembered the Yellow Brick Road peg now - didn't replace it. It's one that's bottomed out so needs tying off rather than clipping to reduce the leverage. Used like that it looks in reasonable nick still...

[Johnny Brown]

crux of Flaky Wall - the current one has been there for about 25 years and still solid last time I passed it

Passed it back in July, looked fine to me.

[Paul B]

am I thinking of the right ones Johnny or was that higher up on Supersonic or something?

[rd0]

Look at the facts. All the best limestone cliffs in UK are mostly trad. Very rarely climbed on. Any crap that is bolted becomes popular. There is very little good quality routes for beginners. UK climbers (mostly) lag behind the European ones. In the Peak, Chee Tor is probably the best limestone climbing around - but nobody climbs on it.

Compare with Europe - good quality routes on excellent rock are all bolted from 4 .. 9a. All the cliffs are popular and kids aged 9 and upwards out climb most of the UK climbers.

If nobody is ever going to climb the routes on (for example) Chee Tor and with vegetation getting worse year on year what reason do we have not to bolt the routes. In the past (before bolts were even thought of) people climbed the routes. Nowadays the FA has been long done and is written up. So for a bit of historical significance we exclude all the future climbers from these routes? If Chee Tor was discovered tomorrow I would guarantee it would be bolted.

I have climbed more new routes than most people and I get a satisfaction when people climb the lines I created. A line that is now unclimbable might as well never have been climbed in the first place.

[Paul B]

Chee Tor is probably the best limestone climbing around - but nobody climbs on it.

This just isn't correct, maybe it was quiet this summer (I certainly didn't venture down there), but it was a SHIT summer. Most of the bolted stuff didn't get climbed much either.

[Johnny Brown]

What Paul said. The summer before last the whole crag was very clean and popular.

[Stubbs]

rd0 you seem to come from a position where it is important to make bits of rock popular and well used, why should this be the case?  I quite like that in the UK crags have a chance to return to nature if they aren't used.

[Bonjoy]

Look at the facts. All the best limestone cliffs in UK are mostly trad. Very rarely climbed on. Any crap that is bolted becomes popular.

As Paul says this is just not true. Classic trad crags like Chee Tor and High Tor see a decent amount of traffic. Arguably less than they deserve but certainly not ‘very rarely’.


 

There is very little good quality routes for beginners. UK climbers (mostly) lag behind the European ones. In the Peak, Chee Tor is probably the best limestone climbing around - but nobody climbs on it.
Compare with Europe - good quality routes on excellent rock are all bolted from 4 .. 9a. All the cliffs are popular and kids aged 9 and upwards out climb most of the UK climbers.
 

I’ve heard some flimsy excuses in my time… Bolting Chee Tor is never going to turn a Chris Craggs into an Adam Ondra. Who gives a shit if UK average sport grades are lower than in countries with vastly superior sport crags anyway?

If nobody is ever going to climb the routes on (for example) Chee Tor and with vegetation getting worse year on year what reason do we have not to bolt the routes.

I don’t buy this thing about Chee Tor vegetation. Do you actually do any of the routes you are talking about? To my eyes it has the same level of vegetation it has had in all the twenty years I’ve climbed on it. You get a fresh crop of grass and Harebells in some pockets/flakes each year or two, mostly it is no more than a mild inconvenience to remove whilst climbing. Wholesale de-vegetation is neither necessary or desirable on Chee Tor, especially given the nature of the access and land management.

In the past (before bolts were even thought of) people climbed the routes. Nowadays the FA has been long done and is written up. So for a bit of historical significance we exclude all the future climbers from these routes? If Chee Tor was discovered tomorrow I would guarantee it would be bolted.

It might be bolted if you found it, not if I found it, or many many other peak climbers. You wrongly assume that the reason we see loads of crap sport FAs in the peak and very few trad lime FAs is primarily a matter of climber preference. The reason we don’t see great new trad lime venues being developed is that they were all developed a long time ago. The scraps that are left are in the main so loose and lineless as to be fit for nothing other than bolting.
 People will climb any old shit if it has bolts in it. This isn’t a good reason to bolt up quality trad venues.
Do some of these routes again. I don’t know, maybe you’ve forgotten how good they already are. Read the comments beneath the classics logged on UKC and tell me these routes only exist for the sake of history.

I have climbed more new routes than most people and I get a satisfaction when people climb the lines I created. A line that is now unclimbable might as well never have been climbed in the first place.

So have I. This is nonsense. I have treasured memories of things which have never and may never be repeated. I have treasured memories of routes (not mine) which have since fallen down. Perhaps the only value you perceive from your FAs is in their repetitions, but you are wrong to assume this of others, or that others get no value from ascents of things they will never repeat themself. If nothing else the climbing and documentation of a line has intrinsic value in that it tells other climbers how hard and to a lesser extent how good a line is, regardless of whether anyone ever chooses to repeat it.

[jamiev]

Look at the facts. All the best limestone cliffs in UK are mostly trad. Very rarely climbed on.

Very rarely? Surely some mistake. Just to give 2 quick examples, Pembroke and the trad routes at high tor seem as popular as ever.

There is very little good quality routes for beginners.

Yes there is. Eg in Peak Lime: harborough, aldery (again just 2 examples)

In the Peak, Chee Tor is probably the best limestone climbing around - but nobody climbs on it.

True about the quality of the climbing at Chee Tor, which is great. But completely wrong to say that no-one climbs there. Much of last year was a washout anyway: not alot happened in Cheedale whether sport or trad. But 2 years ago Chee Tor saw lots of traffic, was v popular.
 

If nobody is ever going to climb the routes on (for example) Chee Tor and with vegetation getting worse year on year what reason do we have not to bolt the routes. In the past (before bolts were even thought of) people climbed the routes. Nowadays the FA has been long done and is written up. So for a bit of historical significance we exclude all the future climbers from these routes?

But your argument is wrong way around. To bolt chee tor would be to exclude all future climbers from these magnificent experiences, which to re-iterate would have been as popular (and clean) this year as last if the weather had allowed.

[SamT]

 

[Wil]

Look at the facts. All the best limestone cliffs in UK are mostly trad. Very rarely climbed on.

Just a cursory look at the UKC logbooks proves you wrong on this. There are plenty of ticks and a substantial number of routes on people's wishlists. People don't just climb these routes, they aspire to climb them! As for Chee Tor being bolted if it were discovered now... what planet are you on?