[SamT]

Here's one from leftfield that fits the category of 'over grown' but if bolted may see a bit of traffic. (though I doubt it would stay clean for very long)

Independence Day in Eldon Hole.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=106445
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=139199


Having been avidly into caving for the last decade, I've abbed past this a few times, but I never really paid it much attention.  Its been on my list of to do things all summer i.e. to go and have a proper look at it,  see if its worth the effort, look for the old spit placements and see if they'll still take hangers. 

Then - being one of the Derbyshire Caving Association's 'accredited'  bolters, the idea of properly bolting it with glue in's occurred on the ground that it may then see some activity, however limited.
(The vast majority of popular caves in the Peak and Yorkshire Dales are bolted with DMM eco anchors or other glue ins, a national, organised, methodical approach that was started back in 1990 with great success. see http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=153 )

The new routes book in stoney suggests it was created as a 'sport route'
http://www.philkelly.com/rockarchivist/papers.php?PageRef=NRB/StoneyMiddletonNRB/1988/Sep1988-034.jpg
"sorry - I ran out of bolts".  It's presumably never had any ascents since Neils and Ians, as the bolts/hangers were nicked by cavers, which was probably inevitable at the time. 

There are about 4 different caving routes down the hole all bolted with glue ins.
 
If I were to go ahead, I'd want to canvas opinion from the caving side of things as this is quite distinctly their 'turf' as well as trying to contact Malc to see if he cared (I'd be surprised if he did mind).

If it weren't for this thread, I might well have gone ahead and done it without anybodies 'permission', no-one would have been any the wiser, as I suspect cavers wouldn't care and climbers wouldn't have known about it.

I admit that even if fully bolted up, with really nice stainless bolts and a really nice belay etc etc, it would probably see very very few ascents and would always need a good clean (which at least you can do easily as you ab down the line anyway).

[petejh]

I'm an outsider to the peak lime trad scene but please humour me. I've replaced/retro'd far more than my fair share of old fixed gear, more than most people ever will, and it strikes me that there's a big assumption underlying the decision to re-equip/retro which should be questioned more closely.

Assumption - 'old pegs and bolts are no longer trustworthy'. How true is this? I know from removing literally hundreds of them (pegs and bolts) on NW lime  - and I'm talking Rowland Edwards era early 70's mild steel pegs and 8mm bolts with galvanised hangers on sea cliffs here - most of them have been a complete bastard to remove and weren't about to snap. There have been more than a few that did snap with just a gentle tap but they were usually very obviously corroded to within an inch mm of their lives. Or any placed by George Smith  , never trust old bolts on a George Smith route. Bearing in mind that this is what I've found in the worst possible conditions for mild steel then I'd be prepared to bet that some of these old pegs and bolts on inland crags (I'm not familiar with the routes) are actually quite able of holding leader falls for many years to come.

Wouldn't it be worth firstly doing some tests on a a spread of these old pegs/bolts in place, to see how they perform with some high impact forces and then base any decisions to re-equip or not on something more solid than 'efics' and how the old equipment looks to the untrained eye (we're all untrained here unless someone is a specialist in carbon steel corrosion).

[Paul B]

I remembered Darius as having decent, easily placed natural threads right next to the bolt, but when a mate did it a couple of weeks ago, and I quizzed him on this and whether he felt the bolt was necessary, he didn't think those threads were how I had remembered them.  He felt the bolt was well justified (and he has on sighted 8a, albeit in a former life - I know, I was holding his rope at the time. But I digress....).

I know we're trying to avoid getting bogged down in specifics but Darius is a poor example here and just confuses the debate, the thread is in-situ and there's gear to be had in the pockets right by the bolt. See earlier post.

You also suggest that people are considering removing fixed gear, in reality is anyone actually suggesting they'd go and remove anything (this would likely be viewed as elitist behaviour)? Surely it's more likely "we" (as you put it) may agree to leave it to rot away which could be described as sustainable and forward thinking rather than simply elitist as whatever gets replaced will one day need replacing again.

[tomtom]

Putting my academic head on, this would probably be a fascinating issue for a social scientist/human geographer.

At the hub of the questions being asked are issues around some main themes (and some issues that touch on both). Plenty of 'contested spaces' (ooooh!)

1. Ownership. There seems to be a strong element of who did the route first has a big say in how it should be. This is even more apparent when it comes to bolted/equipped routes as the first ascentionist (or developer) has spent on pegs/bolts/hangers etc...

2. Ethics. Whether or not a route should be bolted? - how many should be used? Should there be a mix of bolts and natural gear. Here it gets interesting as often bolts are added for what appears to be rather spurious reasons - which often (I suspect) boil down to the developer of the route not fancying that part unless its protected. Then someone else comes along and does it better/differently etc...

3. Closely linked to this is tradition. Its fascinating to see how people will clip or not clip, use or not use a peg or bit of gear depending upon whether or not others use it - almost as if its the 'done thing' or not.

4. Conservation. Again linked to ethics - how much or little the rock should be altered or changed. Interestingly the general UK ethic/feeling not to change the rock is relaxed on limestone - often justified by its more 'transient' nature than other rock types. This is interesting as limestone features are often the most spectacular of rock formations and you could argue therefore have more reason to be left alone!


Its fascinating how humans twist and change situations for their own peace of mind or to align with their feelings - as putting my Vulcan logic head on:
1. If you do not want to upset the natural beauty of a crag, you should stop people going there full stop - let alone equipping the rock.

But, if you decide the people have the right to climb, then...

2. For safety reasons you should bolt all climbing routes with a safe regular spacing (e.g. every 1.5-2m) - then it is the choice of the climber whether or not to clip.

Just my tuppence...

[Jerry Morefat]

Its fascinating how humans twist and change situations for their own peace of mind or to align with their feelings

  Good point. I've often thought climbing ethics and the arguments behind them are pretty arbitrary, particularly regarding obtaining permission from the first ascensionist. Just because they were the first to climb it, what gives them the right to say  what can and can not be done to a piece of rock?

[slackline]

Of course ethics are mutable!

[Johnny Brown]

Assumption - 'old pegs and bolts are no longer trustworthy'. How true is this? I know from removing literally hundreds of them (pegs and bolts) on NW lime  - and I'm talking Rowland Edwards era early 70's mild steel pegs and 8mm bolts with galvanised hangers on sea cliffs here - most of them have been a complete bastard to remove and weren't about to snap. There have been more than a few that did snap with just a gentle tap but they were usually very obviously corroded to within an inch mm of their lives. Or any placed by George Smith  , never trust old bolts on a George Smith route. Bearing in mind that this is what I've found in the worst possible conditions for mild steel then I'd be prepared to bet that some of these old pegs and bolts on inland crags (I'm not familiar with the routes) are actually quite able of holding leader falls for many years to come.

I have to agree with this. The last time we had a proper debate about this, I spent a day on Windy Buttress replacing threads and lower-offs, and trying to reduce the amount of gear. I gave up on getting any of the pegs out fairly rapidly. I was surprised by the moaning I got about removing dangerously weak threads, but that's a side issue.

Wouldn't it be worth firstly doing some tests on a a spread of these old pegs/bolts in place, to see how they perform with some high impact forces and then base any decisions to re-equip or not on something more solid than 'efics' and how the old equipment looks to the untrained eye (we're all untrained here unless someone is a specialist in carbon steel corrosion).

I'm pretty sure the BMC have already been down that line and decided its not possible to match looks to strength with any consistency.

4. Conservation. Again linked to ethics - how much or little the rock should be altered or changed. Interestingly the general UK ethic/feeling not to change the rock is relaxed on limestone - often justified by its more 'transient' nature than other rock types. This is interesting as limestone features are often the most spectacular of rock formations and you could argue therefore have more reason to be left alone!

Best not to confuse genuine conservation and ethics. We generally bolt limestone because there is insufficent natural pro. I spoke to a Natural England geologist recently and he has no problem with drilled holes or climbing on the vast majority of SSSI geological exposures (including landscape features like Malham).  Limestone crags are likely to have a scientifically interesting suite of vegetation, though not in my experience on good climbing rock - usually at the top of the crag. This should be conserved where possible, making a strong argument for lower-offs at the top of the clean rock though. However I I'm also convinced its possible to regularly topout without damaging that environment - Windy buttress would be a good example where a beautiful cragtop ecosystem seems to be thriving. I think the benefits of engaging people with such an ecosystem outweigh the changes caused by them in many cases.

.....but that actually should we consider that if there is a crucial knackered old peg, and in trying to bring a route back to life, it is found that replacing it with another is impossible (it does happen), then should we sometimes consider replacing it with a bolt?

I really don't think anyone has any beef with that. The next question has to be, okay, which ones? That's where I think we're at in this thread, and as previously I've always been surprised by the examples given. Considering how often this issue gets brought up I'm amazed folk haven't got good examples in their mind. The impression I'm left with is that what they actually want is just more bolts generally. (bar Jonboy of course)

Perhaps we should have a poll of the examples given so far?

Windy Buttress - no from me.
Miller's Tale - don't know the route personally, and judging by Piranha and Hot fun which I know, this is very much route by route here. Generally, I've no beef with more lower-offs at Rubicon, though I think we should use slung trees where possible.
Eldon Hole - its a sport route where the bolts were stolen. Rebolt it, looks like fun.
Darius and Lyme - stronger argument for removal than replacement, leave as is.
Dovedale church - I've never been. I think some of the retroed routes around Reynard's would have been better left as trad, so would urge caution.

[Jaspersharpe]

Assumption - 'old pegs and bolts are no longer trustworthy'. How true is this? I know from removing literally hundreds of them (pegs and bolts) on NW lime  - and I'm talking Rowland Edwards era early 70's mild steel pegs and 8mm bolts with galvanised hangers on sea cliffs here - most of them have been a complete bastard to remove and weren't about to snap.

That's the first time I've ever read the words "trustworthy" and "Edwards" together in a positive sense.

[shark]

I've often thought climbing ethics and the arguments behind them are pretty arbitrary, particularly regarding obtaining permission from the first ascensionist. Just because they were the first to climb it, what gives them the right to say  what can and can not be done to a piece of rock?

Its an emotional stake rather than a right and yes they should have an influential say because they gave enough of a shit in the first place to put the route up - unlike the unimaginative majority who would rather climb at Horseshit than spend an hour abbing down to clean a neglected classic or seek out a new route of their own.

I spent an hour fossicking around Stoney West last winter just down from Horseshoe. There's loads that you could revitalise there such as Simon Cundy's routes and even space for some mid grade bolted routes though requiring a lot of cleaning off loose rock.

[tomtom]

fossicking?

Good word. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fossicking

[Neil F]

I know we're trying to avoid getting bogged down in specifics but Darius is a poor example here....

You also suggest that people are considering removing fixed gear, in reality is anyone actually suggesting they'd go and remove anything (this would likely be viewed as elitist behaviour)? Surely it's more likely "we" (as you put it) may agree to leave it to rot away which could be described as sustainable and forward thinking rather than simply elitist as whatever gets replaced will one day need replacing again.

Not sure I agree Paul.  The one thing which won't happen, particularly in the current climate of opinion, is that the Darius bolt will be left to rot away.  The most likely thing which will happen is that someone (and I have no idea who) will replace it with a decent modern bolt.  Frankly I am amazed this hasn't happened already, but I think it highly likely it will happen in the next 6 months or so.

My reference to removal of the bolt stems purely from the fact that whenever the opinion is stated that the Darius bolt should be replaced, a counter argument that the bolt should be removed completely is always proffered.

As stated earlier in the thread, I think there is a good argument for making sure that if there is to be a bolt, it should at the very least be a decent one.  Like it or not, the bolts on Darius and Lyme Cryme are very well established and the LC one (at least) is very well past its sell-by date (to the point where someone (not me!) has backed it up with a sodding great ugly length of rope hanging down from a runner in the crack above).

At the same time, people are abseiling off Seb’s belay above Original Route virtually every weekend through the Summer (Original Route appears to be the most popular route on High Tor, according to my observations in recent years). Yet once again, this belay is definitely past its best.

Do I think these isolated High Tor bolts should be replaced?  On balance, in these particular instances, yes I do.

Do I think this will be the thin end of any wedge?   It won’t be on my watch…

Neil

[Bonjoy]

One thing which might be worth bearing in mind is that if "we" decide to remove the bolt from Darius, whilst at the same time replacing the aged but crucial bolt on Circe (which I hear someone has finally sorted out, and well done to them from me), then we will undoubtedly face charges of elitism.

Thoughts....?

Neil

It comes down to the question I posed earlier. How significantly does the addition/replacement/loss of a bolt change the character and difficulty of the route. The loss of the bolt on Circe would increase the seriousness of Circe a lot more than the loss of the bolt on Darius. Ergo it is a more justifiable action to replace the bolt on the former. Typically E5s on peak limestone with one bolt have that one bolt for the reason that without it you would hit the deck. This is just a function of hard routes having fewer natural placement than easier ones. The charge of elitism in this case is not a hard one to refute.

A couple of specific examples of things which I personally think justify considering for restoration:
I tend to agree that Fey, Shazam and A Basic Power Problem on the Chee Cornice qualify. The rest of the crag is fully bolted. The routes are supposed to be very good when clean. Cleaning as trad routes would be highly demoralizing (nay pointless unless time is your oyster)as they would be filthy again within a year. Who loses?
As mentioned before, That'll Do Nicely at Central Buttress - once a *** E5 with lots of pegs. Pegs not replaceable. Major hold loss has rendered it a very different (harder) climb since the FA. The nature of the rock means it will be to some extent always unpredictably loose, hence not appealing as a hard trad line with very bad gear (in my experience most hard trad climbers are saner than you might imagine when it comes to hard moves on snappy rock with no gear). Despite all this the climb looks excellent.

[TobyD]

It comes down to the question I posed earlier. How significantly does the addition/replacement/loss of a bolt change the character and difficulty of the route. The loss of the bolt on Circe would increase the seriousness of Circe a lot more than the loss of the bolt on Darius. Ergo it is a more justifiable action to replace the bolt on the former. Typically E5s on peak limestone with one bolt have that one bolt for the reason that without it you would hit the deck. This is just a function of hard routes having fewer natural placement than easier ones. The charge of elitism in this case is not a hard one to refute.
A couple of specific examples of things which I personally think justify considering for restoration:
I tend to agree that Fey, Shazam and A Basic Power Problem on the Chee Cornice qualify. The rest of the crag is fully bolted. The routes are supposed to be very good when clean. Cleaning as trad routes would be highly demoralizing (nay pointless unless time is your oyster)as they would be filthy again within a year. Who loses?
As mentioned before, That'll Do Nicely at Central Buttress - once a *** E5 with lots of pegs.

I agree with all of that, though have no experience of the latter CB route, your argument sounds sensible and compelling.

[Neil F]

I agree with all of that, though have no experience of the latter CB route...

I do.  I made the second ascent of That'll Do Nicely at a time I was climbing regularly on Central Buttress.

As mentioned before, That'll Do Nicely at Central Buttress - once a *** E5 with lots of pegs. Pegs not replaceable. Major hold loss has rendered it a very different (harder) climb since the FA. The nature of the rock means it will be to some extent always unpredictably loose, hence not appealing as a hard trad line with very bad gear (in my experience most hard trad climbers are saner than you might imagine when it comes to hard moves on snappy rock with no gear). Despite all this the climb looks excellent.

Jon - whilst i have some sympathy with your argument for bolting up Fey, Shazam and A Basic Power Problem - neglected classics on what has become a high quality sport climbing crag - there is, in fact, a world of difference between these examples and That'll Do Nicely.  Key to this is that the latter is on a crag which, almost unique in the Peak, is home to a whole host of hard, bold trad climbs.  Some relied on situ gear, and in some cases this has gone or rusted into uselessness.  In such cases, why not either try to replace the pegs, or if that is not possible, put a bolt where the peg was.

But don't be tempted to turn bold trad routes into sport climbs or you will literally open the floodgates to the small group of people who are dying to turn CB into yet another sport crag, basically because they aren't good enough to do the routes.

You say that TDN has suffered major hold loss.  What is your evidence for this?  When I led it, the climbing was about F7b and the protection was a combination of nuts, cams and some pegs. It most certainly wasn't a clip up on pegs.  But contrary to your assertion, the rock wasn't particularly bad.  There is much excellent rock on CB, and some areas where it is a bit more dubious.

But no-one should be fooled in thinking that the rock on Seb's new route to the right of Behemoth is typical of CB.  It isn't.  The rock on that one is much, much worse than on the traditional routes.

In summary, in my view CB is a special case and well worth preserving.  Yes it has been neglected, and yes, it certainly needs some TLC.  But turning That'll Do Nicely into a full sport route would run the risk of opening floodgates through which would charge the new generation of drillers, resplendent in their Sport for All t-shirts...

Neil

[nai]

re Central Buttress, from previous discussion:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,11844.msg204016.html#msg204016

[Bonjoy]

My thoughts on TDN are based on having tried to clean and re-peg the route on abseil. It was one of the loosest bits of rock I've come across and a lot of what looked like important holds (and the rock around) came off during the clean.

Forget what I said re Few, Shazam etc. It was friday night booze talking. Other arguments aside I think it would breach the access arrangement for the crag.

Cure for Arapiles at the Nook on the other hand is a pegged route which should be bolted IMO.

[Johnny Brown]

I would be much more concerned about the access implications of drilling at Central Buttress currently than at the Cornice. The Cornice is a special case in Cheedale being one of the few privately owned and managed bits of land. CB is on DWT managed land and highly visible, and there have been a string of issues recently in the area.

Personally I would trust Jon's judgement here, although I would suggest if we are not to slip towards full-blown retrobolting a limit of three? bolts per pitch might be an idea? I think any bolts for pegs should also utilise the longest lasting solution we have, ie glue in 'P' bolts made as unobtrusive as possible. Obvious quality and longevity arguments aside, shiny hangers give a much more sport feel to a crag, and if a trad feel is what is trying to be preserved that is important.

[Johnny Brown]

Actually, given recent developments I'd suggest a complete moratorium on bolting or cleaning anywhere between Rubicon and Raven Tor would be a very good idea until things improve.

[kc]

We would perhaps be in a better position if Central buttress was owned by the wildlife trust as we have a dialogue with them. Unfortunately its ownership is unclear, perhaps CW Estates i'm told and is very overlooked by one of the primary landowners in the dale that would rather zero access.
Don't go wasting your time or good metal just yet.

[Neil F]

My thoughts on TDN are based on having tried to clean and re-peg the route on abseil. It was one of the loosest bits of rock I've come across and a lot of what looked like important holds (and the rock around) came off during the clean.

Yes, I think I remember you telling me that now.  But it does seem odd, how it went from a pretty solid enjoyable (albeit hard) E5, to one of the loosest bits of rock you'd ever come across!  You'd better take care in Gordale, or on parts of Red Wall if that is the case.  They are far looser than That'll do Nicely!

Cure for Arapiles at the Nook on the other hand is a pegged route which should be bolted IMO.

Agree with that one, though it might have to be a midnight excursion...

Neil

[Mark Lloyd]

Take him on a climbing trip to the Llyn Neil !

What's been happening in Cheedale recently to warrant a softy softly approach ?

[Bonjoy]

I have a fair experience of looseness on different rock types. While peak limestone is not as loose per se as other places IMO it is at it's worst a nasty and unpredictable sort of looseness.

As for TDN, time, frost and comprehensive neglect had obviously done their worst.

[T_B]

IMO the crucial thing is to try and maintain the character of the routes and buttresses.

1 new bolt might replace 2 or 3 pegs/old bolts on something like the upper section of Mad Max. Stick a runout in to retain the flutter factor, why not? If you replaced like for like it would almost become a sport route.

Replace the bolt on Darius as the E2 leader gets to that point and is thankful for it. It doesn't detract from the pitch, which is top end as people have already said. I don't think it would be a 'better' pitch with a scary E3 runout at 55m when your toes are numb.

I was shocked when White Gold on Chee Tor got retroed. My impression was it just needed a bit of a clean up. But someone else might have a better feel of how poor the pegs got and whether there's trad gear. But the rock is solid, it was a 3 star E4 and now it's a 6c+ on a predominantly trad crag.

Routes like Spazz Energy ruin the character of nearby routes. Darl getting retroed was a mistake too IMO.

There is the odd route (e.g. Hot Fun) that is probably best as a sport route, but retroing isolated routes a long walk from the car won't make them instantly popular.

There is also the odd quirky route (Tequila) where I do think adding a bolt at the bottom would be in character with the rest of the route (i.e. it's bolted and you don't place any gear on it, but you risk breaking your legs on the start so that makes it "trad") 

[dave]

Its alright maintaining the character but what about improving the character? Darius strikes me as a trad route with a historical and anachronistic bolt on it which you could argue should never have been placed in the first place. With modern gear available I would have thought it ridiculous to repeat the mistakes of the past. Doesn't matter if removing the bolt ups the grade.

Plus once you stick a new bolt is it removes any historical context. Anyone in the future years arriving at the crag doesn't find a big trad route with an old knackered bolt that is clearly not to be trusted but is part of the histroy of the route - instead they find a big trad route with one inexplicable modern bolt on it. Let me say again, lets not repeat the mistakes of the past.

[Paul B]

Replace the bolt on Darius as the E2 leader gets to that point and is thankful for it. It doesn't detract from the pitch, which is top end as people have already said. I don't think it would be a 'better' pitch with a scary E3 runout at 55m when your toes are numb.

I'm not sure you can justify replacing it based upon this alone; as has been said by myself and Johnny, there's gear to be had and its close enough to the bolt not to affect the character. I know one other contributor to this thread is intending to have another look at Darius and LC in light of this thread. It'll be interesting to hear his opinions either way.

We should be looking to take stuff out of these routes, not put more in.

^ This and "What Dave Said".