UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Stabbsy on September 07, 2020, 10:19:15 am
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Punter question: if you've got a very long extender (multiple draws chained together) on something so you can clip a bolt early, but you also want to clip it again at a normal height, is it safe to just clip two quickdraws through the bolt - one being the extender and the other being the short draw? Does this put weird forces on the bolt? I can't imagine them being significant against what the bolt is designed to do. Can falling on the outer-clipped quickdraw do anything weird to the other quickdraw? I can imagine some circumstances where the two draws might overlap and squish each other, but probably nothing significant to the strength of the metal.
Yes, don't do it - although in the example I remember, it was the karabiner that snapped. I think it might depend on the bolt, but with Petzl style hangers you can get the higher of the two biners caught at an angle under the nut so it sits at 90 degrees to the bottom biner which can then lead to the top biner being destroyed in a fall.
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Punter question: if you've got a very long extender (multiple draws chained together) on something so you can clip a bolt early, but you also want to clip it again at a normal height, is it safe to just clip two quickdraws through the bolt - one being the extender and the other being the short draw? Does this put weird forces on the bolt? I can't imagine them being significant against what the bolt is designed to do. Can falling on the outer-clipped quickdraw do anything weird to the other quickdraw? I can imagine some circumstances where the two draws might overlap and squish each other, but probably nothing significant to the strength of the metal.
Yes, don't do it - although in the example I remember, it was the karabiner that snapped. I think it might depend on the bolt, but with Petzl style hangers you can get the higher of the two biners caught at an angle under the nut so it sits at 90 degrees to the bottom biner which can then lead to the top biner being destroyed in a fall.
Ok, I can see what you mean there. Seems unlikely but definitely a possibility on something draggy where the top draw is getting pulled upwards. What's the best practice alternative? I've seen people clip the top draw through the webbing of the bottom draw which seems foolproof but for whether stuffing another draw in will adversely affect the strength of the stitching.
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Probably be fine on a glue in I'd have thought. I don't think there is a perfect alternative that isn't so faffy as to negate the benefit of extending the draw in the first place. It sounds like the equivalent of having a draw facing 'the wrong way' before setting off on a traverse; you know the risk of it unclipping in a fall, but sometimes thats the direction it has to face for the clip to be easy. Swings and roundabouts.
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Might be a punter answer but I've used a threaded sling before for the extended draw then the other draw clipped normally on top. Again to avoid metal on metal. But don't know if slings are really rated for continuous sporting lobs... And can unclip themselves easier too.
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Possibly the right answer is just to have the routes bolted properly. The runout on Personal Services is not nice, and it's not as if it's an unpopular route in a backwater. The climbing on it is good - better than F&EE - it deserves better bolting. If the sequence between the two bolts was such that there was nowhere to clip from then I could understand it but you can reach up and clip, albeit urgently, from the good undercut sidepull on the left.
(I know, I know. Do it yourself. At some point I will learn how to bolt).
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Possibly the right answer is just to have the routes bolted properly. The runout on Personal Services is not nice, and it's not as if it's an unpopular route in a backwater. The climbing on it is good - better than F&EE - it deserves better bolting. If the sequence between the two bolts was such that there was nowhere to clip from then I could understand it but you can reach up and clip, albeit urgently, from the good undercut sidepull on the left.
(I know, I know. Do it yourself. At some point I will learn how to bolt).
I can hear Nez shouting at you already! No macho bullshit intended but I didn't think the clip was that bad, you just drop it in speedily when next to it from memory? No worse than the runout on Seventh Aaardvark, but I agree with the premise that it could probably be placed slightly better. I don't remember a good lower clipping position but if there is one then fair enough. Great route I thought.
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Possibly the right answer is just to have the routes bolted properly. The runout on Personal Services is not nice, and it's not as if it's an unpopular route in a backwater. The climbing on it is good - better than F&EE - it deserves better bolting. If the sequence between the two bolts was such that there was nowhere to clip from then I could understand it but you can reach up and clip, albeit urgently, from the good undercut sidepull on the left.
(I know, I know. Do it yourself. At some point I will learn how to bolt).
I can hear Nez shouting at you already! No macho bullshit intended but I didn't think the clip was that bad, you just drop it in speedily when next to it from memory? No worse than the runout on Seventh Aaardvark, but I agree with the premise that it could probably be placed slightly better. I don't remember a good lower clipping position but if there is one then fair enough. Great route I thought.
I'm afraid you might be climbing too well to notice. The runout won't be bad if you're pissing the moves. But the climbing is high in the grade so it's a shitter for a 7b climber. One might ask why have more bolts than is absolutely necessary to avoid a deckout on any route of any grade.
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Maybe worth splitting this off as it's nothing to do with the main thread?
Possibly the right answer is just to have the routes bolted properly. The runout on Personal Services is not nice, and it's not as if it's an unpopular route in a backwater. The climbing on it is good - better than F&EE - it deserves better bolting. If the sequence between the two bolts was such that there was nowhere to clip from then I could understand it but you can reach up and clip, albeit urgently, from the good undercut sidepull on the left.
(I know, I know. Do it yourself. At some point I will learn how to bolt).
I can hear Nez shouting at you already! No macho bullshit intended but I didn't think the clip was that bad, you just drop it in speedily when next to it from memory? No worse than the runout on Seventh Aaardvark, but I agree with the premise that it could probably be placed slightly better. I don't remember a good lower clipping position but if there is one then fair enough. Great route I thought.
I was just about to agree on Personal Services - didn't like the runout, possibly as you feel like you'd get pretty close to the ground if you came off? I had a 4ft sling on the bolt I think. That said, on some routes the runout is part of the character and it would be a shame to lose it - New Dawn (although I think this might have gone now?), Biological and The Ashes being the ones I remember.
Probably be fine on a glue in I'd have thought. I don't think there is a perfect alternative that isn't so faffy as to negate the benefit of extending the draw in the first place. It sounds like the equivalent of having a draw facing 'the wrong way' before setting off on a traverse; you know the risk of it unclipping in a fall, but sometimes thats the direction it has to face for the clip to be easy. Swings and roundabouts.
I think even with a glue-in, you're increasing the chances of generating a cantilever force on the biner unless the eye of the glue-in is huge.
Might be a punter answer but I've used a threaded sling before for the extended draw then the other draw clipped normally on top. Again to avoid metal on metal. But don't know if slings are really rated for continuous sporting lobs... And can unclip themselves easier too.
If you mean larks-footing a sling through the eye of the bolt, this terrifies me - particularly on a Petzl bolt. I think it's the damage to the sling that could be caused by falling on the biner that's also in the same bolt that bothers me. I'm sure someone with some proper knowledge will come along shortly - Johnny Brown and Dan Middleton have done a bit of testing kit to failure in various scenarios, I think.
My approach was always been to use a sling rather than clipping draws together. My longest draws are 4ft slings which are a narrow dyneema. I take off the top biner and clip the sling through the top biner of the short draw, so you have two draws of different lengths on the same top biner, but without them competing for space as you would get if you clipped 2 sewn extenders into the same biner. Hopefully that makes sense.
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My approach was always been to use a sling rather than clipping draws together. My longest draws are 4ft slings which are a narrow dyneema. I take off the top biner and clip the sling through the top biner of the short draw, so you have two draws of different lengths on the same top biner, but without them competing for space as you would get if you clipped 2 sewn extenders into the same biner. Hopefully that makes sense.
Yeah, I really don't like the sound of what Alex suggested. Sounds like the perfect way to chop a sling if it's a standard mechanical bolt hanger.
I've seen people clip the top draw through the webbing of the bottom draw
Rather than have two sewn quickdraw slings on one krab, what I mean is: a bolt with one snapgate clipped to it. Clipped to the snapgate is a sport-draw style dogbone (the start of the long chicken-draw). The loop of tape which is clipped to the snapgate on the bolt also has a standard length quickdraw clipped through it.
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If you mean larks-footing a sling through the eye of the bolt, this terrifies me - particularly on a Petzl bolt. I think it's the damage to the sling that could be caused by falling on the biner that's also in the same bolt that bothers me. I'm sure someone with some proper knowledge will come along shortly - Johnny Brown and Dan Middleton have done a bit of testing kit to failure in various scenarios, I think.
My approach was always been to use a sling rather than clipping draws together. My longest draws are 4ft slings which are a narrow dyneema. I take off the top biner and clip the sling through the top biner of the short draw, so you have two draws of different lengths on the same top biner, but without them competing for space as you would get if you clipped 2 sewn extenders into the same biner. Hopefully that makes sense.
This. I definitely wouldn't put a sling through the bolt or two krabs in a bolt.
Only time I've set this up I did pretty much as stabbsy - short draw in the bolt, long skinny sling through the top krab. I also used a bit of tape to keep the lower krab from rotating in the sling, and to seat the skinny sling under the nylon sling of the short draw.
Felt safe (no science) and worked well. Was a bit faffy to set up the first time, but was for the crux of a project so I just kept it together while I was working it.
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Ah yeah verified punter answer. I hadn't considered the type of bolt. They all seem to be nice smooth glue ins around here. I've done it for one particular clip I don't like on a route nearby. I'd worried about the sling un clipping but figured the bolt below was only another metre. Hadn't considered the other draw cutting the sling... Also remember doing this on Lost In Thought but maybe the sling was in the top biner of the draw.? Can't remember..
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Rather than have two sewn quickdraw slings on one krab, what I mean is: a bolt with one snapgate clipped to it. Clipped to the snapgate is a sport-draw style dogbone (the start of the long chicken-draw). The loop of tape which is clipped to the snapgate on the bolt also has a standard length quickdraw clipped through it.
I must be misunderstanding as this sounds like it would just rip out the stitching on the dogbone?
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Rather than have two sewn quickdraw slings on one krab, what I mean is: a bolt with one snapgate clipped to it. Clipped to the snapgate is a sport-draw style dogbone (the start of the long chicken-draw). The loop of tape which is clipped to the snapgate on the bolt also has a standard length quickdraw clipped through it.
Sorry, I’d understood what you were getting at here. I’d guess it depends on the strength of the stitching and how it responds to the downward pull - don’t know enough to comment. I’d maybe prefer this to 2 biners in the same bolt or the larks foot sling approaches, but prefer my own method to all of the above.
As Duma says, you can use a bit of tape to keep the biners and/or tapes in the right place.
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2. Use a 3x or 4x extended draw for the low clip, and clip a separate draw through the biner that's clipped to the bolt. This is my default if I want extended draws for redpoint but I want a short one to work sections off
While we're at it I might as well say that this is in contravention of the metal-to-metal rule that I was taught on day 1 of climbing.
I thought it was because the krabs twist and one krab twisting against another can easily push the gate open, resulting in the krab unclipping itself.
I thought the main reason for metal to metal was bad was because it can produce sharp edges on biners, which in turn can do bad things to your rope if you later have the rope running over the sharp bits.
I always thought the metal to metal advice was to do with peaks loads.
The tape adds a tiny bit of give into system that will drastically reduce the peak force on the gear during a fall.
Hence, the trick when removing stuck nuts of clipping two krabs (metal on metal) to the nut and yanking on that. Bigger peak load than same with a quickdraw.
If it's just for dogging around close to the draw then the risk is low, but it still seems like an unnecessary deviation from best practice when there's other ways of doing stuff.
Rather than have two sewn quickdraw slings on one krab, what I mean is: a bolt with one snapgate clipped to it. Clipped to the snapgate is a sport-draw style dogbone (the start of the long chicken-draw). The loop of tape which is clipped to the snapgate on the bolt also has a standard length quickdraw clipped through it.
I must be misunderstanding as this sounds like it would just rip out the stitching on the dogbone?
This was my concern, but it fits with what goes on in trad climbing. In a trad environment you might only have one length of draw (generally with quite open slings which aren't sewn together all the way down) and I was always taught from very early on that if you needed to extend something beyond a standard draw's length then you did it by clipping the next draw to the open bit of the sling of the previous draw (hence avoiding metal on metal).
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I generally looked at the metal on metal thing the same as I looked on "don't use your knees" and "the leader never falls". Think I was taught those on day 1 as well.
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I'm struggling to reconcile how the same person who said this:
Punter question: if you've got a very long extender (multiple draws chained together) on something so you can clip a bolt early, but you also want to clip it again at a normal height, is it safe to just clip two quickdraws through the bolt - one being the extender and the other being the short draw? Does this put weird forces on the bolt? I can't imagine them being significant against what the bolt is designed to do. Can falling on the outer-clipped quickdraw do anything weird to the other quickdraw? I can imagine some circumstances where the two draws might overlap and squish each other, but probably nothing significant to the strength of the metal.
Yes, don't do it - although in the example I remember, it was the karabiner that snapped. I think it might depend on the bolt, but with Petzl style hangers you can get the higher of the two biners caught at an angle under the nut so it sits at 90 degrees to the bottom biner which can then lead to the top biner being destroyed in a fall.
could also say this:
I generally looked at the metal on metal thing the same as I looked on "don't use your knees" and "the leader never falls". Think I was taught those on day 1 as well.
Do you also backclip your rope and abseil without tying knots in the ends of the ropes? ;)
I accept that the risk per fall for most of this stuff is generally very low indeed, but sport climber's take thousands of falls...
If it's just as easy to get it right as to get it wrong then why not do it right. FWIW, the fingertaped/elastic-banded sling through the top krab sounds like by far the best solution to the original question.
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What I meant by that was that it’s a rule I follow most of the time, but I don’t follow blindly. I don’t use metal on metal (except clipping wires) in most situations. I don’t fall off much and I don’t use my knees most of the time. But there have been situations where I do fall off, do use my knees and have clipped metal onto metal.
I don’t know why we were taught not to use metal on metal - the peak load point seems plausible, as does your unclipping suggestion. But I do know that I can clip metal on metal very occasionally in such a way as to mitigate those risks.
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2. Use a 3x or 4x extended draw for the low clip, and clip a separate draw through the biner that's clipped to the bolt. This is my default if I want extended draws for redpoint but I want a short one to work sections off
While we're at it I might as well say that this is in contravention of the metal-to-metal rule that I was taught on day 1 of climbing.
Total newbie to all this stuff, but intuitively not going metal to metal makes sense until you remember that you're always doing exactly that when putting a quick draw into a bolt....
What I've been told is maybe more nuanced, and is essentially don't go metal to metal with anything through which you might run your rope. I.e., always use one side of the quick draw to clip to the bolt (let's call it the dark end), the other for your rope (let's call it the light end, as they're usually brightly coloured), and never mix them up.
If you follow that, then assuming you're clipping dark to dark in Alex's method, then it's not much different than if you were clipping into a 2nd bolt. I can't really see how that wouldn't be safe?
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The 'metal to metal' thing is a good example of telling beginners something in an easy to remember phrase that later gets applied to situations where it isn't really relevant. There is nothing wrong with metal to metal when you arrive at the belay for example, or indeed when building a trad belay, or in loads of other situations. I can't see a lot wrong with Alex's method either even if instinctively it makes me double take.
Like most climbing problem solving, the solution normally involves an element of compromise. eg. short draw on crucial gear makes the gear feel closer but is potentially more likely to lift out. Extended draw is easy to clip but probably gets in the way of the sequence above. Clip the old rusty bolt from the rest or the new shiny one in a pumpy position? Clipping short draw to top biner of extended draw possibly has a minuscule chance of structurally damaging the biner, but if brings your heart rate down enough so you won't fall on it anyway then its not an issue.
Probably the most useful thing I ever read on those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice' was 'if its not obviously not fine; its fine.'
Off topic, but far more dangerous than the occasional double clipping of a bolt is the way the nut on loads of expansion bolts protrudes way too far, so it could easily get caught on the spine of the biner and snap it. Ever since DanM's bolt workshop I see these everywhere!
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Topic split?
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Topic split?
Done
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Off topic, but far more dangerous than the occasional double clipping of a bolt is the way the nut on loads of expansion bolts protrudes way too far, so it could easily get caught on the spine of the biner and snap it. Ever since DanM's bolt workshop I see these everywhere!
This is a genuine concern, and I raised it to one of the DMM reps around 5 years ago, or whenever it was that the ‘new’ DMM Alpha carabiner was released onto the market. The problem I noticed is this:
On a 12mm expansion bolt with an ‘old style’ Petzl couer 12mm hanger, a DMM Alpha carabiner can rotate (from the drag of the rope) such that the change in angle on the back bar of the carabiner allows it to fairly easily become trapped in a cross-loaded position between the protruding bolt/nut and the hanger. It isn’t easy to release from this position, and a fall onto the carabiner in this position could snap it.
Worth knowing about.
(doesn’t happen on the newer style Petzl couer hangers, or on a carabiner lacking the ‘Alpha’s’ sharp change of angle on back bar).
BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?
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Welcome to UKSportsclimbing.com :D
At least the chalk discussion was keeping things in line for a bit....
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Off topic, but far more dangerous than the occasional double clipping of a bolt is the way the nut on loads of expansion bolts protrudes way too far, so it could easily get caught on the spine of the biner and snap it. Ever since DanM's bolt workshop I see these everywhere!
This is a genuine concern, and I raised it to one of the DMM reps around 5 years ago, or whenever it was that the ‘new’ DMM Alpha carabiner was released onto the market. The problem I noticed is this:
On a 12mm expansion bolt with an ‘old style’ Petzl couer 12mm hanger, a DMM Alpha carabiner can rotate (from the drag of the rope) such that the change in angle on the back bar of the carabiner allows it to fairly easily become trapped in a cross-loaded position between the protruding bolt/nut and the hanger. It isn’t easy to release from this position, and a fall onto the carabiner in this position could snap it.
Worth knowing about.
(doesn’t happen on the newer style Petzl couer hangers, or on a carabiner lacking the ‘Alpha’s’ sharp change of angle on back bar).
BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?
Yep, happened to my friend with Petzl Spirit draws and he decked out onto the catwalk when the biner snapped. Scary stuff. Amazing how many massively protruding bolts there are, especially on lower grade routes. How does this happen; bad drilling/laziness/bad luck/all of the above? Another tick in the box for glue ins I suppose.
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WOW! :o
Which route, and have the bolts been re-equipped since? (and I hope he wasn't too badly hurt?)
Because like you say this is a far greater hazard than a bit of biner-to-biner clipping.
I'd say it's bad design - both hanger and carabiner. When I noticed this problem with the Alpha's the rep didn't want to know, and got quite defensive. Although tbf I was probably being unknowingly a bit too direct ::)
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I take it the Wild Country version of the Alpha has the same problem (i.e. my QDS)?
In this situation I've tended to use a sling hung in the straight gate biner of the QD but this often ends up with faffy drag issues as you end up with two clips close together.
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WOW! :o
Which route, and have the bolts been re-equipped since? (and I hope he wasn't too badly hurt?)
Because like you say this is a far greater hazard than a bit of biner-to-biner clipping.
I'd say it's bad design - both hanger and carabiner. When I noticed this problem with the Alpha's the rep didn't want to know, and got quite defensive. Although tbf I was probably being unknowingly a bit too direct ::)
Tbf I am surmising somewhat but its all we can think happened. It was Space Race, and not as far as I know. Its on my list for when I get up there with a drill. He fractured a few ribs and vertebrae but was back climbing in a month; a lucky escape!
I think theres always a slim chance of something like this happening but placing the bolt properly is a controllable so surely has to be priority number one. I'm sure Dan will comment when he sees this, he definitely had a bee in his bonnet about it at the workshop!
If the bolt is a new ish expansion bolt and otherwise sound could you grind off the end of the bolt to solve the issue rather than drilling a new hole, or does this have implications?
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those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice'...
Have you seen the posts on Instagram where guides post pictures of their perfectly fine multipitch anchors and ask for comments? :yawn: I don’t even follow the accounts but they pop up because I follow trad climbing hashtags- it’s pretty much the opposite of the content I’m hoping to see!
The only thing I really resent about having nearly died after making a basic ropework error is not being able to slag that sort of stuff off without sounding like a cock. ;)
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I think Alpha shape krabs make things worse, but I have seen examples of other commonly used krabs getting hung up as well. Fundamentally it's a bit of a design issue with mechanical bolts, the newer Petzl hanger helps for sure (they've thickened the plate and relaxed the radius too to reduce burring of krabs). I try and teach on my workshops ways of minimising the amount of stud sticking out (Petzl say 6mm max outside the nut), but honestly sometimes when you start doing a bolt up it takes a while to properly bite and you can end up with a fair bit of exposed stud. The reduced embedment depth then means a potentially weaker bolt too. It's yet another reason I much prefer glue-ins despite the extra faff.
The double krab in a hanger breaking is definitely a thing, I've watched a slow-mo video of a test from somewhere (probably Petzl) where the upper krab breaks in the bolt.
Given the number of specialised gizmos around for climbing these days I'm surprised there isn't a patented double sling quickdraw on the market, but you could make one up. How about 8mm accessory cord clove hitched onto a screwgate, each end terminated with barrel knots onto snapgates? Simply adjust for length by moving the clove hitch? Extra kudos at the crag for looking like some weird caver-climber hybrid in action...
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BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?
Meh. I asked the question because I wanted to know whether there were any issues that I might not have anticipated. On the day I just slapped two quickdraws into the bolt, didn't fall on them, and all was fine. I thought any potential issues would be insignificant to the strength of the draw, but I was wrong because there is a twisting issue that I didn't know about.
Probably the most useful thing I ever read on those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice' was 'if its not obviously not fine; its fine.'
The point is that modes of failure are not always obvious at all. It's not immediately obvious that backclipped ropes can unclip in a fall (people worry about this but it seems as likely to happen as two snapgates clipped together unclipping in a fall), or that doubling up krabs in a mechanical bolt can cause them to hang up and snap, or that >6mm studs can snap Alphas.
Anyway, we've got the answer now (it was only meant to be a quick question in Power Club, not a thread) so feel free to lock the thread.
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Threads on best practice always make me feel so incompetent that I sometimes wonder how I survived, seriously. I'm not having a dig at all; I mean it.
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I wouldn’t clip 2 biners in a bolt if I could avoid it. Have previously just daisy chained a few long draws. Clip the bottom biner then move up and clip the top one as normal, ignoring the others hanging off it. Or add a long sling to your draw, you can always unclip it when high enough to clip the draw in the bolt as normal.
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BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?
Meh. I asked the question because I wanted to know whether there were any issues that I might not have anticipated. On the day I just slapped two quickdraws into the bolt, didn't fall on them, and all was fine. I thought any potential issues would be insignificant to the strength of the draw, but I was wrong because there is a twisting issue that I didn't know about.
Probably the most useful thing I ever read on those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice' was 'if its not obviously not fine; its fine.'
The point is that modes of failure are not always obvious at all. It's not immediately obvious that backclipped ropes can unclip in a fall (people worry about this but it seems as likely to happen as two snapgates clipped together unclipping in a fall), or that doubling up krabs in a mechanical bolt can cause them to hang up and snap, or that >6mm studs can snap Alphas.
Anyway, we've got the answer now (it was only meant to be a quick question in Power Club, not a thread) so feel free to lock the thread.
The bigger crime isn't starting the thread/asking the question, it's failing to use the quote function.......
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A slightly related question. Around here the lower offs are ofter two glue ins linked by chain/sling/old rope with a sauschwanzl/curly pig tail thing on the lower bolt. If I'm top roping or lowering of many times I put a draw in the lower bolt. Sometimes there isn't enough room for the sauschwanzl and the biner to sit in the bolt without squishing each other and putting an unusual load on to the bolt. Can this do any damage to the bolt? Probably not, considering low forces involved with lowering and top roping?
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BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?
Meh. I asked the question because I wanted to know whether there were any issues that I might not have anticipated. On the day I just slapped two quickdraws into the bolt, didn't fall on them, and all was fine. I thought any potential issues would be insignificant to the strength of the draw, but I was wrong because there is a twisting issue that I didn't know about.
Probably the most useful thing I ever read on those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice' was 'if its not obviously not fine; its fine.'
The point is that modes of failure are not always obvious at all. It's not immediately obvious that backclipped ropes can unclip in a fall (people worry about this but it seems as likely to happen as two snapgates clipped together unclipping in a fall), or that doubling up krabs in a mechanical bolt can cause them to hang up and snap, or that >6mm studs can snap Alphas.
Anyway, we've got the answer now (it was only meant to be a quick question in Power Club, not a thread) so feel free to lock the thread.
The bigger crime isn't starting the thread/asking the question, it's failing to use the quote function.......
Oh the irony...
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Have previously just daisy chained a few long draws. Clip the bottom biner then move up and clip the top one as normal, ignoring the others hanging off it.
having the rope running over the sling clipped to the top draw sounds bad to me, esp with a soft catch
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Have previously just daisy chained a few long draws. Clip the bottom biner then move up and clip the top one as normal, ignoring the others hanging off it.
having the rope running over the sling clipped to the top draw sounds bad to me, esp with a soft catch
Ditto - I try to avoid this,
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having the rope running over the sling clipped to the top draw sounds bad to me, esp with a soft catch
A partner clipped a draw like this once and fell off, it cut clean through the sling and left residue on the rope.
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BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?
Meh. I asked the question because I wanted to know whether there were any issues that I might not have anticipated. On the day I just slapped two quickdraws into the bolt, didn't fall on them, and all was fine. I thought any potential issues would be insignificant to the strength of the draw, but I was wrong because there is a twisting issue that I didn't know about.
Probably the most useful thing I ever read on those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice' was 'if its not obviously not fine; its fine.'
The point is that modes of failure are not always obvious at all. It's not immediately obvious that backclipped ropes can unclip in a fall (people worry about this but it seems as likely to happen as two snapgates clipped together unclipping in a fall), or that doubling up krabs in a mechanical bolt can cause them to hang up and snap, or that >6mm studs can snap Alphas.
Anyway, we've got the answer now (it was only meant to be a quick question in Power Club, not a thread) so feel free to lock the thread.
The bigger crime isn't starting the thread/asking the question, it's failing to use the quote function.......
Oh the irony...
It was intended!*
*it wasn't......
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BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?
Meh. I asked the question because I wanted to know whether there were any issues that I might not have anticipated. On the day I just slapped two quickdraws into the bolt, didn't fall on them, and all was fine. I thought any potential issues would be insignificant to the strength of the draw, but I was wrong because there is a twisting issue that I didn't know about.
Probably the most useful thing I ever read on those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice' was 'if its not obviously not fine; its fine.'
The point is that modes of failure are not always obvious at all. It's not immediately obvious that backclipped ropes can unclip in a fall (people worry about this but it seems as likely to happen as two snapgates clipped together unclipping in a fall), or that doubling up krabs in a mechanical bolt can cause them to hang up and snap, or that >6mm studs can snap Alphas.
Anyway, we've got the answer now (it was only meant to be a quick question in Power Club, not a thread) so feel free to lock the thread.
The bigger crime isn't starting the thread/asking the question, it's failing to use the quote function.......
Oh the irony...
It was intended!*
*it wasn't......
I even wadded you for what I thought was an excellent meta quote joke.
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If ever a topic would be aided by a few photos and diagrams....
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(https://pasteboard.co/JqiV0T9.png)
Fucked if I know how to get image links to work, maybe that's why?
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Market for a DMM Mamba style biner with double "bars" a the bottom, one with sewn in std Quickdraw length, and longer one below? You would only need one to place in specialist redpoint specific locations?
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Edit. Never mind
The rope is just running over biners.
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Have previously just daisy chained a few long draws. Clip the bottom biner then move up and clip the top one as normal, ignoring the others hanging off it.
having the rope running over the sling clipped to the top draw sounds bad to me, esp with a soft catch
It isn’t running over nylon.
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Market for a DMM Mamba style biner with double "bars" a the bottom, one with sewn in std Quickdraw length, and longer one below? You would only need one to place in specialist redpoint specific locations?
Could you use a Daisy Chain that aid climbers use? Or they not rated for falls?
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No, end to end they are full strength but the individual pockets are not.
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Niche in the market right there. How difficult would it be to make a full-strength version of a daisy chain?
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Niche in the market right there. How difficult would it be to make a full-strength version of a daisy chain?
This.
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Isn't that what the Metolius PAS is?
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Long sling with an overhand on the bight knot
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/13bzOTyU05E0qAzP3SQZ5SFlw_Kqypa1hZKT-YgMpuW43Wr1l3Zj-Y16UXj_0E9OntPMNTwOWSu9kccUKeloYI6D0SncvwG3RZyOSPuUAzXazMFB9FIpsHg92lupJG26ZatGmH8gOg=w2400)
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Isn't that what the Metolius PAS is?
As I understand it, yes. It’s like a chain of belay loops rather than a sling stitched into sections. Like most Brits who’ve never aid climbed (or climbed sport with American punters) I’ve never used either though!
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(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0030/4044/4451/products/belay_chain_evo_1200x.png?v=1583919022)
That work?
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You only want the black bits at the end though? Wouldn't the rest get in the way?
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Long sling with an overhand on the bight knot
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/13bzOTyU05E0qAzP3SQZ5SFlw_Kqypa1hZKT-YgMpuW43Wr1l3Zj-Y16UXj_0E9OntPMNTwOWSu9kccUKeloYI6D0SncvwG3RZyOSPuUAzXazMFB9FIpsHg92lupJG26ZatGmH8gOg=w2400)
Don't knot dyneema slings unless you're comfortable halving the strength. I.e. I'd be happy to do it to equalise a belay but what you've illustrated is a bad idea imho.
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Don't knot dyneema slings unless you're comfortable halving the strength. I.e. I'd be happy to do it to equalise a belay but what you've illustrated is a bad idea imho.
Seeing that this thread has now gone full trad punter I can ask a dumb question: I thought that potential fall forces onto a belay could be higher than onto a bolt half way up a route (assuming as you want to extend it, it will be at least half way up)?
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Seeing that this thread has now gone full trad punter I can ask a dumb question: I thought that potential fall forces onto a belay could be higher than onto a bolt half way up a route (assuming as you want to extend it, it will be at least half way up)?
The belay won't suffer from the pulley effect, so it's limited by the impact force of the rope and the slippage through the belay plate (I wouldn't fancy hold a fall directly onto the belay. The first runner off a stance is going to be the most at risk.
Back to the main topic. What I've generally done is clip a longer sling through the bolt biner, then a quickdraw on the sling. I don't really see a problem with this? I can clip the quickdraw on the bolt when I get to it, and I can clip the lower one at an appropriate point (I generally use a QD because it sits better). There's a minor issue with the sling in the way of the top QD, and probably a small potential for some rope/sling abrasion in a fall?
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Have we covered the option of clipping a short qd into the bolt carabiner of the longer qd, I know this is metal on metal but avoids double clipping the bolt and avoids rope running over sling.
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Back to the main topic. What I've generally done is clip a longer sling through the bolt biner, then a quickdraw on the sling. I don't really see a problem with this? I can clip the quickdraw on the bolt when I get to it, and I can clip the lower one at an appropriate point (I generally use a QD because it sits better). There's a minor issue with the sling in the way of the top QD, and probably a small potential for some rope/sling abrasion in a fall?
I think this is basically what has emerged as being the best way to do it, except I wouldn't bother clipping a draw to the long sling - just have a single krab and tape/elastic the sling next to the krab to stop it spinning around. Everything else seems flawed in some way. Duncan's knotted sling is a bit of a risky strategy for the reason that JB explains and it doesn't seem well suited to a sport climbing scenario where you might be taking repeated falls onto the gear. Imagine trying to undo that knot at the end of the day!
The daisy chain thing is fine but who's really going to go out and buy one of them unless they're going aid climbing?
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Seeing that this thread has now gone full trad punter I can ask a dumb question: I thought that potential fall forces onto a belay could be higher than onto a bolt half way up a route (assuming as you want to extend it, it will be at least half way up)?
The belay won't suffer from the pulley effect, so it's limited by the impact force of the rope and the slippage through the belay plate (I wouldn't fancy hold a fall directly onto the belay. The first runner off a stance is going to be the most at risk.
Yeah, the top quickdraw will see the highest forces. The forces at the belay will be much lower. Also I would expect loading only one end of Duncan's knotted sling to be much weaker than loading them both as you would when equalising a belay (and if you want to go full supertopo we could now discuss the efficacy of this).
...I know this is metal on metal
No idea where the metal on metal came from, it's a nonsense. You clip wires, you clip bolts. Two 'rules': don't chain snapgates, and for sportclimbing have quickdraws with dedicated ends.
Possibly came from a mistaken extension of the fact that nylon on nylon generally is a bad idea?
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There's been some confusion around the metal on metal thing. Obviously using two bits of metal climbing gear together is ok because (as has been pointed out), duh!, clipping bolts/wires/via-ferrata etc etc etc.
The phrase "metal-to-metal" came in when I was taught how to extend trad quickdraws on the fly in a trad scenario where you do it sling-to-metal. The rule is actually as JB says: don't enchain snapgates if you're going to fall on them. There are obvious exceptions for clipping krab-to-krab where the risk of the krabs unclipping isn't present because you're statically loading them - i.e. clipping directly to a draw when clipsticking/stripping a route etc
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Long sling with an overhand on the bight knot
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/13bzOTyU05E0qAzP3SQZ5SFlw_Kqypa1hZKT-YgMpuW43Wr1l3Zj-Y16UXj_0E9OntPMNTwOWSu9kccUKeloYI6D0SncvwG3RZyOSPuUAzXazMFB9FIpsHg92lupJG26ZatGmH8gOg=w2400)
So is the answer essentially this, without the knot?
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Take the knot out of the long sling, replace the short loop with a quick draw. Clip the long sling into the top (bolt) krab. Tape the crab onto the long sling with a lot of tape so it won’t turn. Finally be absolutely sure the the krab on the long sling can’t invert like happened to young Italian climber TitoTraversa.
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I thought his death was caused by someone making up QDs with the 'biner just going through the rubber retainer, but not the dogbone.
https://gearjunkie.com/tito-traversa-death-climbing-instructor-sentenced-quickdraws
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This is what you do. Chris is right that Tito's draws were all badly made up by a non-climbing parent who didn't understand what they were doing. But the same thing can easily happen on it's own while the kit is in a bag (see demo below). The Tito Traversa risk is something I'd considered but it's not going to happen while the setup is hanging - it would happen while it was stored in your bag. It's so simple to set up (it's literally just clipping a sling to a krab and putting an elastic band on!) there's no reason you'd pack this away in your bag and run the risk - you'd just make it up fresh every time you used it.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50326993616_b9e34805aa_k.jpg)
Tito Traversa thing demo:
https://vimeo.com/4138205
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The set in in Will’s image is how I do it. I used multiple 4ft slings doubled up as QDs especially on long euro tufa routes. If you decide to have some permanent longs slings I’d just recommend taping up about 2 inches so that the krab can’t invert like in the video.
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Cheers Will, interesting. Not seen that before.
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Back to the main topic. What I've generally done is clip a longer sling through the bolt biner, then a quickdraw on the sling. I don't really see a problem with this? I can clip the quickdraw on the bolt when I get to it, and I can clip the lower one at an appropriate point (I generally use a QD because it sits better). There's a minor issue with the sling in the way of the top QD, and probably a small potential for some rope/sling abrasion in a fall?
I think this is basically what has emerged as being the best way to do it, except I wouldn't bother clipping a draw to the long sling - just have a single krab.
Think the reason not to use a qd on the end of the sling is the straight gate at the top end is more likely to have nicks or burrs from bolts that could cut the sling.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50326993616_b9e34805aa_k.jpg)
I'm impressed took a 3 page thread to come up with this..... ;) :) ;D
Did anyone mention skipping the clip, or climbing quicker, or doing what the cool kids do which is to stick another bolt in under the pretence it's a working bolt or re-equipping old gear or something??
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50326993616_b9e34805aa_k.jpg)
I'm impressed took a 3 page thread to come up with this..... ;) :) ;D
Ha ha
Back to the main topic. What I've generally done is clip a longer sling through the bolt biner, then a quickdraw on the sling. I don't really see a problem with this? I can clip the quickdraw on the bolt when I get to it, and I can clip the lower one at an appropriate point (I generally use a QD because it sits better). There's a minor issue with the sling in the way of the top QD, and probably a small potential for some rope/sling abrasion in a fall?
I think this is basically what has emerged as being the best way to do it, except I wouldn't bother clipping a draw to the long sling - just have a single krab.
Think the reason not to use a qd on the end of the sling is the straight gate at the top end is more likely to have nicks or burrs from bolts that could cut the sling.
None-expert caveat:
I doubt there is any real risk of this with a sling which is not moving whilst under load. It would require a pronounced sharp burr to cut a static sling. I think the risk of this happening is much greater with a rope which is moving through a 'biner whilst under load. Even then, I think it's more likely to cause accelerated wear to a rope (but I would still avoid it at the rope end, to the point where I religiously show my anger towards my girlfriend every time she gets the ends of a quickdraw mixed up). This is a similar but distinct situation from rope-end crabs which have been worn to a knife-edge by ropes passing through them like you see on fixed draws.
Having a quickdraw on the end of the sling is unlikely to have the rope-end crab flip upside down without having to mess around with tape or elastic bands.
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I'm impressed took a 3 page thread to come up with this..... ;) :) ;D
I started a reply to the original question to suggest this but with a QD rather than a single krab then got distracted.
I guess it'd have rumbled on anyway, at least we all know some examples of bad practice now.
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Tbf, Stabbsy described this on page one.
without having to mess around with tape or elastic bands.
If that hair bobble looks like faff then I can only presume that you've never had to attempt to arrange a child's hair in the style of Princess Anna from Frozen...
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Neither have I. Pony tail or scissors, she chooses.
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No weird hair day to raise funds for the school then.
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At last! The thread is worth reading!!
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Long sling with an overhand on the bight knot
Don't knot dyneema slings unless you're comfortable halving the strength. I.e. I'd be happy to do it to equalise a belay but what you've illustrated is a bad idea imho.
I don't see how a sport fall is going to generate anywhere close to half the strength of a dyneema sling - especially since the whole object of the exercise is basically to be able to do the hard bit on a toprope.
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- especially since the whole object of the exercise is basically to be able to do the hard bit on a toprope.
At last the truth of sport climbing laid bare 😂
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Knotting dyneema is much worse than knotting nylon slings due to the low friction coefficient of dyneema. So a thin sling could easily go from 22kN > 11kN.
In a sharp fall giving 4-5kN on climber, the force is doubled on the quickdraw. That's not a margin I'd be comfortable with. And of all climbing gear, slings are the most vulnerable to strength reduction from abrasion. Would you be happy falling on a nylon quickdraw half cut through? No, but only because it looks bad but a knot doesn't.
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Knotting dyneema is much worse than knotting nylon slings due to the low friction coefficient of dyneema. So a thin sling could easily go from 22kN > 11kN.
In a sharp fall giving 4-5kN on climber, the force is doubled on the quickdraw. That's not a margin I'd be comfortable with. And of all climbing gear, slings are the most vulnerable to strength reduction from abrasion. Would you be happy falling on a nylon quickdraw half cut through? No, but only because it looks bad but a knot doesn't.
It's one of those situations which is unlikely to cause a problem unless other factors stack up with it, but of course, bad accidents when analysed almost always happen because several factors, none in themselves being critical, stack up to become so.
We know that getting a force of above 7kN on the top runner is very rare, simply because otherwise we'd get many more reports of karabiners failing than we do, as this is the minimum gate open strength allowed these days.It is possible though: a very hard catch, high fall factor, stiff old rope, poor bolting so there is lots of friction in the rope path or the rope snagging on something. More likely though, you get lazy. You set this up, fall on it and the knot is a proper fucker to undo, so you don't bother. You like the set up and carry on using it. The knot now is impossible to undo. I'll sort it out next time, one more redpoint before it gets dark though. Bam you're on the deck.You couldn't see the damage hidden by the knot and the knot being tight couldn't soak up any fall energy, plus the tightened radius on the knot increased the stress at the critical point. Lot's of small things stacking up to cause carnage.
If you are going to knot stuff, always undo them afterwards!