[Stabbsy]

Punter question: if you've got a very long extender (multiple draws chained together) on something so you can clip a bolt early, but you also want to clip it again at a normal height, is it safe to just clip two quickdraws through the bolt - one being the extender and the other being the short draw? Does this put weird forces on the bolt? I can't imagine them being significant against what the bolt is designed to do. Can falling on the outer-clipped quickdraw do anything weird to the other quickdraw? I can imagine some circumstances where the two draws might overlap and squish each other, but probably nothing significant to the strength of the metal.

Yes, don't do it - although in the example I remember, it was the karabiner that snapped. I think it might depend on the bolt, but with Petzl style hangers you can get the higher of the two biners caught at an angle under the nut so it sits at 90 degrees to the bottom biner which can then lead to the top biner being destroyed in a fall.

[Will Hunt]

Punter question: if you've got a very long extender (multiple draws chained together) on something so you can clip a bolt early, but you also want to clip it again at a normal height, is it safe to just clip two quickdraws through the bolt - one being the extender and the other being the short draw? Does this put weird forces on the bolt? I can't imagine them being significant against what the bolt is designed to do. Can falling on the outer-clipped quickdraw do anything weird to the other quickdraw? I can imagine some circumstances where the two draws might overlap and squish each other, but probably nothing significant to the strength of the metal.

Yes, don't do it - although in the example I remember, it was the karabiner that snapped. I think it might depend on the bolt, but with Petzl style hangers you can get the higher of the two biners caught at an angle under the nut so it sits at 90 degrees to the bottom biner which can then lead to the top biner being destroyed in a fall.

Ok, I can see what you mean there. Seems unlikely but definitely a possibility on something draggy where the top draw is getting pulled upwards. What's the best practice alternative? I've seen people clip the top draw through the webbing of the bottom draw which seems foolproof but for whether stuffing another draw in will adversely affect the strength of the stitching.

[spidermonkey09]

Probably be fine on a glue in I'd have thought. I don't think there is a perfect alternative that isn't so faffy as to negate the benefit of extending the draw in the first place. It sounds like the equivalent of having a draw facing 'the wrong way' before setting off on a traverse; you know the risk of it unclipping in a fall, but sometimes thats the direction it has to face for the clip to be easy. Swings and roundabouts.

[Alex-the-Alex]

Might be a punter answer but I've used a threaded sling before for the extended draw then the other draw clipped normally on top. Again to avoid metal on metal. But don't know if slings are really rated for continuous sporting lobs... And can unclip themselves easier too.

[Will Hunt]

Possibly the right answer is just to have the routes bolted properly. The runout on Personal Services is not nice, and it's not as if it's an unpopular route in a backwater. The climbing on it is good - better than F&EE - it deserves better bolting. If the sequence between the two bolts was such that there was nowhere to clip from then I could understand it but you can reach up and clip, albeit urgently, from the good undercut sidepull on the left.

(I know, I know. Do it yourself. At some point I will learn how to bolt).

[spidermonkey09]

Possibly the right answer is just to have the routes bolted properly. The runout on Personal Services is not nice, and it's not as if it's an unpopular route in a backwater. The climbing on it is good - better than F&EE - it deserves better bolting. If the sequence between the two bolts was such that there was nowhere to clip from then I could understand it but you can reach up and clip, albeit urgently, from the good undercut sidepull on the left.

(I know, I know. Do it yourself. At some point I will learn how to bolt).

I can hear Nez shouting at you already! No macho bullshit intended but I didn't think the clip was that bad, you just drop it in speedily when next to it from memory? No worse than the runout on Seventh Aaardvark, but I agree with the premise that it could probably be placed slightly better. I don't remember a good lower clipping position but if there is one then fair enough. Great route I thought.

[Will Hunt]

Possibly the right answer is just to have the routes bolted properly. The runout on Personal Services is not nice, and it's not as if it's an unpopular route in a backwater. The climbing on it is good - better than F&EE - it deserves better bolting. If the sequence between the two bolts was such that there was nowhere to clip from then I could understand it but you can reach up and clip, albeit urgently, from the good undercut sidepull on the left.

(I know, I know. Do it yourself. At some point I will learn how to bolt).

I can hear Nez shouting at you already! No macho bullshit intended but I didn't think the clip was that bad, you just drop it in speedily when next to it from memory? No worse than the runout on Seventh Aaardvark, but I agree with the premise that it could probably be placed slightly better. I don't remember a good lower clipping position but if there is one then fair enough. Great route I thought.

I'm afraid you might be climbing too well to notice. The runout won't be bad if you're pissing the moves. But the climbing is high in the grade so it's a shitter for a 7b climber. One might ask why have more bolts than is absolutely necessary to avoid a deckout on any route of any grade.

[Stabbsy]

Maybe worth splitting this off as it's nothing to do with the main thread?

Possibly the right answer is just to have the routes bolted properly. The runout on Personal Services is not nice, and it's not as if it's an unpopular route in a backwater. The climbing on it is good - better than F&EE - it deserves better bolting. If the sequence between the two bolts was such that there was nowhere to clip from then I could understand it but you can reach up and clip, albeit urgently, from the good undercut sidepull on the left.

(I know, I know. Do it yourself. At some point I will learn how to bolt).

I can hear Nez shouting at you already! No macho bullshit intended but I didn't think the clip was that bad, you just drop it in speedily when next to it from memory? No worse than the runout on Seventh Aaardvark, but I agree with the premise that it could probably be placed slightly better. I don't remember a good lower clipping position but if there is one then fair enough. Great route I thought.

I was just about to agree on Personal Services - didn't like the runout, possibly as you feel like you'd get pretty close to the ground if you came off? I had a 4ft sling on the bolt I think. That said, on some routes the runout is part of the character and it would be a shame to lose it - New Dawn (although I think this might have gone now?), Biological and The Ashes being the ones I remember.

Probably be fine on a glue in I'd have thought. I don't think there is a perfect alternative that isn't so faffy as to negate the benefit of extending the draw in the first place. It sounds like the equivalent of having a draw facing 'the wrong way' before setting off on a traverse; you know the risk of it unclipping in a fall, but sometimes thats the direction it has to face for the clip to be easy. Swings and roundabouts.

I think even with a glue-in, you're increasing the chances of generating a cantilever force on the biner unless the eye of the glue-in is huge.

Might be a punter answer but I've used a threaded sling before for the extended draw then the other draw clipped normally on top. Again to avoid metal on metal. But don't know if slings are really rated for continuous sporting lobs... And can unclip themselves easier too.

If you mean larks-footing a sling through the eye of the bolt, this terrifies me - particularly on a Petzl bolt. I think it's the damage to the sling that could be caused by falling on the biner that's also in the same bolt that bothers me. I'm sure someone with some proper knowledge will come along shortly - Johnny Brown and Dan Middleton have done a bit of testing kit to failure in various scenarios, I think.

My approach was always been to use a sling rather than clipping draws together. My longest draws are 4ft slings which are a narrow dyneema. I take off the top biner and clip the sling through the top biner of the short draw, so you have two draws of different lengths on the same top biner, but without them competing for space as you would get if you clipped 2 sewn extenders into the same biner. Hopefully that makes sense.

[Will Hunt]

My approach was always been to use a sling rather than clipping draws together. My longest draws are 4ft slings which are a narrow dyneema. I take off the top biner and clip the sling through the top biner of the short draw, so you have two draws of different lengths on the same top biner, but without them competing for space as you would get if you clipped 2 sewn extenders into the same biner. Hopefully that makes sense.

Yeah, I really don't like the sound of what Alex suggested. Sounds like the perfect way to chop a sling if it's a standard mechanical bolt hanger.

I've seen people clip the top draw through the webbing of the bottom draw

Rather than have two sewn quickdraw slings on one krab, what I mean is: a bolt with one snapgate clipped to it. Clipped to the snapgate is a sport-draw style dogbone (the start of the long chicken-draw). The loop of tape which is clipped to the snapgate on the bolt also has a standard length quickdraw clipped through it.

[Duma]

If you mean larks-footing a sling through the eye of the bolt, this terrifies me - particularly on a Petzl bolt. I think it's the damage to the sling that could be caused by falling on the biner that's also in the same bolt that bothers me. I'm sure someone with some proper knowledge will come along shortly - Johnny Brown and Dan Middleton have done a bit of testing kit to failure in various scenarios, I think.

My approach was always been to use a sling rather than clipping draws together. My longest draws are 4ft slings which are a narrow dyneema. I take off the top biner and clip the sling through the top biner of the short draw, so you have two draws of different lengths on the same top biner, but without them competing for space as you would get if you clipped 2 sewn extenders into the same biner. Hopefully that makes sense.

This. I definitely wouldn't put a sling through the bolt or two krabs in a bolt.
Only time I've set this up I did pretty much as stabbsy - short draw in the bolt, long skinny sling through the top krab. I also used a bit of tape to keep the lower krab from rotating in the sling, and to seat the skinny sling under the nylon sling of the short draw.
Felt safe (no science) and worked well. Was a bit faffy to set up the first time, but was for the crux of a project so I just kept it together while I was working it.

[Alex-the-Alex]

Ah yeah verified punter answer. I hadn't considered the type of bolt. They all seem to be nice smooth glue ins around here. I've done it for one particular clip I don't like on a route nearby. I'd worried about the sling un clipping but figured the bolt below was only another metre. Hadn't considered the other draw cutting the sling... Also remember doing this on Lost In Thought but maybe the sling was in the top biner of the draw.? Can't remember..

[Duma]

Rather than have two sewn quickdraw slings on one krab, what I mean is: a bolt with one snapgate clipped to it. Clipped to the snapgate is a sport-draw style dogbone (the start of the long chicken-draw). The loop of tape which is clipped to the snapgate on the bolt also has a standard length quickdraw clipped through it.

I must be misunderstanding as this sounds like it would just rip out the stitching on the dogbone?

[Stabbsy]

Rather than have two sewn quickdraw slings on one krab, what I mean is: a bolt with one snapgate clipped to it. Clipped to the snapgate is a sport-draw style dogbone (the start of the long chicken-draw). The loop of tape which is clipped to the snapgate on the bolt also has a standard length quickdraw clipped through it.

Sorry, I’d understood what you were getting at here. I’d guess it depends on the strength of the stitching and how it responds to the downward pull - don’t know enough to comment. I’d maybe prefer this to 2 biners in the same bolt or the larks foot sling approaches, but prefer my own method to all of the above.

As Duma says, you can use a bit of tape to keep the biners and/or tapes in the right place.

[Will Hunt]

2. Use a 3x or 4x extended draw for the low clip, and clip a separate draw through the biner that's clipped to the bolt. This is my default if I want extended draws for redpoint but I want a short one to work sections off

While we're at it I might as well say that this is in contravention of the metal-to-metal rule that I was taught on day 1 of climbing.

I thought it was because the krabs twist and one krab twisting against another can easily push the gate open, resulting in the krab unclipping itself.

I thought the main reason for metal to metal was bad was because it can produce sharp edges on biners, which in turn can do bad things to your rope if you later have the rope running over the sharp bits.

I always thought the metal to metal advice was to do with peaks loads.

The tape adds a tiny bit of give into system that will drastically reduce the peak force on the gear during a fall.

Hence, the trick when removing stuck nuts of clipping two krabs (metal on metal) to the nut and yanking on that. Bigger peak load than same with a quickdraw.

If it's just for dogging around close to the draw then the risk is low, but it still seems like an unnecessary deviation from best practice when there's other ways of doing stuff.

Rather than have two sewn quickdraw slings on one krab, what I mean is: a bolt with one snapgate clipped to it. Clipped to the snapgate is a sport-draw style dogbone (the start of the long chicken-draw). The loop of tape which is clipped to the snapgate on the bolt also has a standard length quickdraw clipped through it.

I must be misunderstanding as this sounds like it would just rip out the stitching on the dogbone?

This was my concern, but it fits with what goes on in trad climbing. In a trad environment you might only have one length of draw (generally with quite open slings which aren't sewn together all the way down) and I was always taught from very early on that if you needed to extend something beyond a standard draw's length then you did it by clipping the next draw to the open bit of the sling of the previous draw (hence avoiding metal on metal).

[Stabbsy]

I generally looked at the metal on metal thing the same as I looked on "don't use your knees" and "the leader never falls". Think I was taught those on day 1 as well.

[Will Hunt]

I'm struggling to reconcile how the same person who said this:

Punter question: if you've got a very long extender (multiple draws chained together) on something so you can clip a bolt early, but you also want to clip it again at a normal height, is it safe to just clip two quickdraws through the bolt - one being the extender and the other being the short draw? Does this put weird forces on the bolt? I can't imagine them being significant against what the bolt is designed to do. Can falling on the outer-clipped quickdraw do anything weird to the other quickdraw? I can imagine some circumstances where the two draws might overlap and squish each other, but probably nothing significant to the strength of the metal.

Yes, don't do it - although in the example I remember, it was the karabiner that snapped. I think it might depend on the bolt, but with Petzl style hangers you can get the higher of the two biners caught at an angle under the nut so it sits at 90 degrees to the bottom biner which can then lead to the top biner being destroyed in a fall.

could also say this:

I generally looked at the metal on metal thing the same as I looked on "don't use your knees" and "the leader never falls". Think I was taught those on day 1 as well.

Do you also backclip your rope and abseil without tying knots in the ends of the ropes? 

I accept that the risk per fall for most of this stuff is generally very low indeed, but sport climber's take thousands of falls...
If it's just as easy to get it right as to get it wrong then why not do it right. FWIW, the fingertaped/elastic-banded sling through the top krab sounds like by far the best solution to the original question.

[Stabbsy]

What I meant by that was that it’s a rule I follow most of the time, but I don’t follow blindly. I don’t use metal on metal (except clipping wires) in most situations. I don’t fall off much and I don’t use my knees most of the time. But there have been situations where I do fall off, do use my knees and have clipped metal onto metal.

I don’t know why we were taught not to use metal on metal - the peak load point seems plausible, as does your unclipping suggestion. But I do know that I can clip metal on metal very occasionally in such a way as to mitigate those risks.

[Bradders]

2. Use a 3x or 4x extended draw for the low clip, and clip a separate draw through the biner that's clipped to the bolt. This is my default if I want extended draws for redpoint but I want a short one to work sections off

While we're at it I might as well say that this is in contravention of the metal-to-metal rule that I was taught on day 1 of climbing.

Total newbie to all this stuff, but intuitively not going metal to metal makes sense until you remember that you're always doing exactly that when putting a quick draw into a bolt....

What I've been told is maybe more nuanced, and is essentially don't go metal to metal with anything through which you might run your rope. I.e., always use one side of the quick draw to clip to the bolt (let's call it the dark end), the other for your rope (let's call it the light end, as they're usually brightly coloured), and never mix them up.

If you follow that, then assuming you're clipping dark to dark in Alex's method, then it's not much different than if you were clipping into a 2nd bolt. I can't really see how that wouldn't be safe?

[spidermonkey09]

The 'metal to metal' thing is a good example of telling beginners something in an easy to remember phrase that later gets applied to situations where it isn't really relevant. There is nothing wrong with metal to metal when you arrive at the belay for example, or indeed when building a trad belay, or in loads of other situations. I can't see a lot wrong with Alex's method either even if instinctively it makes me double take.

Like most climbing problem solving, the solution normally involves an element of compromise. eg. short draw on crucial gear makes the gear feel closer but is potentially more likely to lift out. Extended draw is easy to clip but probably gets in the way of the sequence above. Clip the old rusty bolt from the rest or the new shiny one in a pumpy position? Clipping short draw to top biner of extended draw possibly has a minuscule chance of structurally damaging the biner, but if brings your heart rate down enough so you won't fall on it anyway then its not an issue.

Probably the most useful thing I ever read on those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice' was 'if its not obviously not fine; its fine.'

Off topic, but far more dangerous than the occasional double clipping of a bolt is the way the nut on loads of expansion bolts protrudes way too far, so it could easily get caught on the spine of the biner and snap it. Ever since DanM's bolt workshop I see these everywhere!

[SA Chris]

Topic split?

[shark]

Topic split?

Done

[petejh]

Off topic, but far more dangerous than the occasional double clipping of a bolt is the way the nut on loads of expansion bolts protrudes way too far, so it could easily get caught on the spine of the biner and snap it. Ever since DanM's bolt workshop I see these everywhere!

This is a genuine concern, and I raised it to one of the DMM reps around 5 years ago, or whenever it was that the ‘new’ DMM Alpha carabiner was released onto the market. The problem I noticed is this:
On a 12mm expansion bolt with an ‘old style’ Petzl couer 12mm hanger, a DMM Alpha carabiner can rotate (from the drag of the rope) such that the change in angle on the back bar of the carabiner allows it to fairly easily become trapped in a cross-loaded position between the protruding bolt/nut and the hanger. It isn’t easy to release from this position, and a fall onto the carabiner in this position could snap it.

Worth knowing about.
(doesn’t happen on the newer style Petzl couer hangers, or on a carabiner lacking the ‘Alpha’s’ sharp change of angle on back bar).

BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?

[Fiend]

Welcome to UKSportsclimbing.com :D

At least the chalk discussion was keeping things in line for a bit....

[spidermonkey09]

Off topic, but far more dangerous than the occasional double clipping of a bolt is the way the nut on loads of expansion bolts protrudes way too far, so it could easily get caught on the spine of the biner and snap it. Ever since DanM's bolt workshop I see these everywhere!

This is a genuine concern, and I raised it to one of the DMM reps around 5 years ago, or whenever it was that the ‘new’ DMM Alpha carabiner was released onto the market. The problem I noticed is this:
On a 12mm expansion bolt with an ‘old style’ Petzl couer 12mm hanger, a DMM Alpha carabiner can rotate (from the drag of the rope) such that the change in angle on the back bar of the carabiner allows it to fairly easily become trapped in a cross-loaded position between the protruding bolt/nut and the hanger. It isn’t easy to release from this position, and a fall onto the carabiner in this position could snap it.

Worth knowing about.
(doesn’t happen on the newer style Petzl couer hangers, or on a carabiner lacking the ‘Alpha’s’ sharp change of angle on back bar).

BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?

Yep, happened to my friend with Petzl Spirit draws and he decked out onto the catwalk when the biner snapped. Scary stuff. Amazing how many massively protruding bolts there are, especially on lower grade routes. How does this happen; bad drilling/laziness/bad luck/all of the above? Another tick in the box for glue ins I suppose.

[petejh]

WOW!

Which route, and have the bolts been re-equipped since? (and I hope he wasn't too badly hurt?)

Because like you say this is a far greater hazard than a bit of biner-to-biner clipping.

I'd say it's bad design - both hanger and carabiner. When I noticed this problem with the Alpha's the rep didn't want to know, and got quite defensive. Although tbf I was probably being unknowingly a bit too direct