[cider nut]

That's fair enough, but fear of falling doesn't really come into it (unless I climb indoors, but that's another story totally unrelated to this one!)  I can't really describe the feeling I get when the easier routes aren't working, but it's more of a frustration and a inability to grasp 'what the hell is the problem here' (at the time), than a fear.

Jaspersharpnose described it really well with this paragraph:
<quote>Puts a different complexion on the question as it IS a purely psychological one if this is the case. You're thinking "this should feel easy as I can climb x many grades harder" and so when it starts feeling hard you think "this can't be right" and give up. I often have to look at why I am failing on something which I know I can do and realise that it's simply a case of trying harder. When something's at your limit the default setting is that of trying really fucking hard anyway so you don't have to make the conscious effort.</quote>

Anyway, I've got enough to go on now and it's not even a problem yet anyway, just be prepared so I don't encounter an unexpected halt to my current run of form

[cider nut]

Houdini - I really do hope you don't read my last post as another 'pre-prepared answer'.  What looks like a pre-prepared answer could just as easily be somebody attempting to clarify their original question if they don't think the reply-ers have quite got what they're on about.  Surely the OP's allowed to say 'no, that's not quite what I meant', without you going 'yes it is, you just don't like the answers'. The OP's not going to want to offend anyone as the misunderstanding is probably down to the way they phrased their OP, so they're not going to wade in and demand it's true that nobody understand them, but then they're opening themselves up to replies like yours if they do it timidly.

Not claiming you guys haven't grasped what I was saying, just it might be an idea not to go off one at me for not listening when there may be other explanations.  My post was about a psychological issue as clarified by JSN, and your comments on that were 'don't think', and most of your advice was concentrated on a slightly off topic area - falling/accidents/climbing even harder.

Anyway, this is turning out to be hard work and it's my bedtime!

[Houdini]

I'm certain I have no idea what you want to achieve.  I'm also certain that I'm the last person able to help you achieve just that.

I think you should try UKC.

[cider nut]

I keep looking at your avatar, and can just visualise you as that little dude, all exasperated (sp) at me.

Cheers for the posts.  G'night.

[lagerstarfish]

I have just re-read the thread, ciders, to try to understand the issue. I got a bit distracted with the "routes" side of things when I responded earlier. As it turns out, I have had the same conversation with Jasper before. I didn't get it then either - mainly due to my being a long term inconsistent climber (technical one day, weak the next, then strong, then stylish then totally shit) who has got used to being inconsistent and now accepts it as normal.
The upshot of this is that I have no useful advice whatsoever to offer on overcoming/avoiding the problem you describe. I do, however, think this was the right place to ask (plenty of good advice to be had here)
I shall make myself usefull by taking Houdini to another pub so you don't have to go drinking at UKC.

[Houdini]

I don't drink in pubs: people want to fight me.

[lagerstarfish]

Not in the pubs I want to take you to; as long as we're holding hands 

[Houdini]

Cool.



I like lovey-dovey shit.  Just no fucking climbing talk OK?!

[lagerstarfish]

and no looking at other boys' legs
and I buy the drinks
and you have to laugh at my "jokes"
and you have to leave with me

actually, this could work...

[Houdini]

Maybe you should change your username to Sugar-Daddy?     

[Paz]

all

I like that you pointed out that houdini was talking a bit of shite (no amount of smiley's - you puntered me H for not using them for some skipping shit, how does that work?), I don't think you originally explained yourself in the best way, despite your going to great lengths, sorry.  I don't want to reduce the whole human experience and essence to binary logic, but your thread title's a double negative, the argument of which (`the I should be able to do this feeling') not everyone may have experience of or can sympahtise with, so it's not surprising anyone suggests a wholy different approach altogether.  But I still think saying `do something else instead, that's harder' is just plain crap unhelpful advice - I mean great, take up unicycling while you're at it.  This may sound vindictive of me Houdini, but I feel like Lady Vengeance.  In this case in the sense that I should've told you when you were being a cunt to start with a long while ago, as after I gave you the benefit of the doubt you've just gone and done the same again to one of my mates.  I hope I'm wrong.  But more importantly, even though you were just essentially giving a load of Ano Ilgner esque advice (who grudgingly I admit we should all have read anyway, for the tick, if nothing else, it's better than Touching the Void at least), you and everyone else could still learn something and improve, so please bare with me. 

Yes, everyone occasionally feels like there's a route below their limit that they think should be able to do that feels harder than expected.  I've seen this amongst some of the best climbers I know, (none of whom post that regularly on UKB AFAIK BTW, though I think there are parallels with bouldering even if others can't see them), especially just after they got spanked by something nearer to their limit, and I suspect that a lot don't admit to it and simply ignore that which they can't do.  People don't learn to unicycle thinking like that.

If you can tell yourself that the new route is indeed a different route, and there's a different reason (if there's indeed only one) by which it can be climbed, then I think you're already setting yourself up in a far better frame of mind than one where you assume it will be easy.  Basically we're talking about onsighting (though I've seen it on stuff people should have wired too), half the work is involved in working out how to do the thing IMHO, if not more so.  I'm falling in the trap of assuming you're in a safe situation, but if you can get in a state of mind like in the Honda advert and regard a route that you don't (yet) know how to do as a problem and an opportunity to make things (or in this case yourself) better, then it can hardly hurt.  Just don't write off all the climbs in the world of that grade thinking they'll give the same particular experience.  They'll be of different styles and in different situations for starters.  I'll feel like a fraud if I pass on as simple hearsay anymore of abarro's wise words without crediting him, but (apparently) one of the big things you can do to help you climb E5 regularly is to realise that failing on an E4 or even an E3 the previous weekend, day, or even go, needn't necessarily stop you from afterwards having a go at a different E5, at all (ignoring cumulative fatigue, the chances of success are independent).  Now I'm a bit more used to routes that feel desperate at first feeling more doable on subsequent goes, I'd say nonetheless one of the big things you can do to help you climb E3 well is to bloody well finish off the E4 or E3. 

I can't unicycle yet btw, but if I find one in a skip I'll definitely teach myself. 

[Houdini]

Smilies.  Adjust radars Paz, they're slippping.  You were puntered more for rude spam, but there's only one line to write reasons why in.

You're 1st paragraph is a whole lot of sillyness, I'm lost for words how to reply to it.  And it's too too too long.  The one piece of advice I've tried to pass on is that when you're trying to push yourself it's a whole lot easier and safer to do something w/ a clear fall zone.  But you are right about one thing: Cider Nut has not explained what she want's particularly clearly. 

Make those posts smaller Paz.  And less silly, I skip read it   

[Jaspersharpe]

  Stop squabbling you cunts. 

though I think there are parallels with bouldering even if others can't see them

There are undoubtably parrallels to be drawn (with this issue) between on-sight trad, bouldering, sport climbing etc in my opinion. The "this should feel easy" mentality can happen when you're doing any type of climbing - well any that has a grade I suppose. You definitely get a lot more out of climbing if you can get rid of it and realise that it doesn't matter if something that's supposed to be well within your ability feels desperate - provided it's a good route/problem that you want to get done.

Another thing to remember is that a lot of (all?) routes / problems are different for each person. A grade is just a consensus of how hard most people find it and may be completely irrelevant to how hard you find it. This is particularly pertinant if you have very specific strengths and weaknesses like me but is relevant to everyone. With sites like Bleau.info and the Yorkshire Grit site and with people like Bonjoy putting the work in to try to get consensus on grades it means that they are now actually more fluent than ever and with 8a.nu etc people now claim whatever grade they feel is correct - which is a good thing.

These things will lead to more agreement on grades but also highlight the fact that there will always be disagreement as no problem / route will ever be exactly the same for any two people. Rambling aside, what I'm saying is that if a VS feels desperate to you but the E1 next to it seems to be a path then it might have nothing to do with your psychology and just that (for you) that's what they are.

Oh yeah and.....

Jaspersharpnose

 

[Houdini]

Paz, I just read that 1st para again for kicks.  Fuck me it's excruciating!   

[SA Chris]

Not wrong, although maybe I should have said it the other way round, 

There's no maybe, that's a definite.

[cider nut]

Paz -
Cheers, as usual you have a good point(s) if I can decipher it amongst the wordiness   (I think smileys are useful, although I wish UKB wouldn't convert my text smiley into a silly graphic), and not just because you stuck up for me.

From the responses I realise I might not have got across what I wanted to say properly in my OP, which is why I keep pointing people at Jasper's description.

Jasper -
Thanks for the thoughts, useful.
> With sites like Bleau.info and the Yorkshire Grit site and with people like Bonjoy putting the work in to try to get consensus on grades
Don't forget Rockfax, hehe.

"Jaspersharpnose" - oops, sorry!  I hear 'sharp' I think exciting looking place on the Culm coast I've never been to.

SA Chris -
Agreed.  But then I never think how to say things clearly until after I've stopped thinking about them, so if I write while I think it often comes out wrong.  You think I'm bad on a forum, try having a fluid discussion with me in real life...

Houdini -
It sounds like you don't have problems with the mental side of climbing, but that doesn't mean it's not a big area that means a lot to some people.  And a question about the mental side is never going to be answered in a couple of posts, instead one's got to gather ideas and go and try them out.  Doesn't mean I'm being disrespectful if I try to further the discussion with 'yeah buts...'.  So if you're expecting someone to go 'yeah, you're right!' I don't think that's possible, mental stuff isn't so black and white.  Also don't forget I've already had a good think about this myself before coming on here, so I'm going to know which responses are on the mark, and off the mark, and which are providing ideas I hadn't yet considered.  Just because I'm the one with the problem, doesn't mean all the people with answers are right.  That doesn't mean they shouldn't be said, as off the mark comments help me pin down any hunch as well as on the mark ones.

Cheers

[galpinos]

I totally understand what you're feeling with the "this shouldn't be hard, why am I struggling" thoughts when on stuff a couple of grades below your limit.

Things I do to avoid this feeling:

I initally just avoided "easier" climbs of a style that didn't suit me, work your strengths and all that, but realised this was a rubbish plan. I now, mentally, have a top limit that varies with type of climb/rock eg. VS on cracks, E1 on slabs/walls etc.

I also avoid "warming" up on easier stuff that I think I might struggle on. I used to turn up to the crag with my "big route" picked, get spanked on an HS trutch thing and then not do much for the rest of the day.

Leading at my limit it when I climb best. I'm a lot more focussed and pull harder. Sometime, you just forget that you've got to put the effort in even when not at your limit.

[webbo]

i think you need to stop beating up on yourself.if you go to the crag with the plan to do a certain hvs and therefore feel you "should" be able to piss up all the severes to warm up.you are almost certainly setting yourself up to fail.
treat warm ups as just that.if you start to struggle back off,repeat one you haven't struggled on.potter about doing stuff that makes you feel good.
i can warm up at my local crag on 7as but will get spanked on 5s at places i haven't been to before.i just keep telling myself that i'm not warmed up yet or that was a bad choice.

[Houdini]

It sounds like you don't have problems with the mental side of climbing...

Everyone has problems w/ the mental side of climbing at some point.  Some improvise, adapt and overcome, others don't.  Now I'd love to be able to tell you what you want to hear - but I've only got what works for me to offer.  I find the more one ponders on routes the easier it is to talk yourself into backing down.  I find keeping things moving is key, on boulder problems too.  That's not to say I can always pull it off. 

I trick I used to use is to only think about the next move ahead, not treating a route like a game of chess, trying to figure it all out.  That's not to say that visualisation does not work.  I just took it one move at a time and didn't get too stuck into thinking about it.  Everything seems to slow when I think too much.  In fact I'd say I climb at my best when I climb w/ no mind at all.  I've tranced my way up loads of routes (bold slabs in particular).

[Paz]

Fuck me it's excruciating! 

Yeah I could've broke it up a bit more.  Thankyou for taking it in good humour, probably better than that which I wrote it in, and not turning this into a slanging match.

[cider nut]

Galpinos - thanks.  Hmm... not a bad idea, tailor my warm ups using particular styles of route.  I'm bollocks at slabs, so could try one of those as a warm up (if available) as it's less strenuous and I'll learn more about slabs.  Then even if I mess it up, I've warmed up, and am not put off my big lead as it's no doubt not a slab.  "Sometime, you just forget that you've got to put the effort in even when not at your limit" - absolutely, that's the issue here and another good way of putting it.

Webbo - I certainly don't go expecting to piss up severes, but I do get thrown if I find one tricky as I 'forget' that they might be hard (as Galpinos says) so don't try as hard.  This happens even if I think 'this might be hard', as effort comes from more than just that thought.  I think there's some weight in not beating myself up over it though and remembering the point is to warm up - so just try something else WITHOUT letting it bother me (it's the latter part I'm missing).

Houdini - "Some improvise, adapt and overcome" - and some think about it, work it over in their heads, and discuss it with others online.  "I find keeping things moving is key" - good point, I used to climb a lot more fluidly (I think!) but have picked up bad habits from others (at least that's my excuse).  Last year I was feeling psyched for an HVS one evening, but thought to myself 'no, go for a VS instead and see if you can do it smoothly, quickly and in good style' - so I did, and it felt good.  Useful thoughts about how many moves in advance to think too.  There's a balance between getting tunnel vision (not thinking far enough), and concentrating on where you are so as not to psyche yourself out (not thinking too far).  For me thinking is still important though, and I think the times I 'trance' myself up routes are when I've got my thinking right, rather than turned it off - I appreciate that may be different to the way you do it!

[Houdini]

How do you feel about falling?  Which is not the same as failing (failing in style is a fine pursuit).




Frankly talking about climbing sucks.  It's not half as interesting as doing it.  For the record, I don't think I really learned to climb before I went to Koh Tao on me tod for a season.  There's nothing like being on your own in a mosquito-infested jungle w/ no hospital, no partners and one tiny POD mat and a world of snappy, crystaline granite old skool hi-balls to help you get up stuff in one piece.  I strongly rate being on your own as a way of surviving rock climbs.

[cider nut]

Falling's par for the course outdoors, although I haven't fallen for a while.  Indoors the thought of falling terrifies me but that's a different story!

I don't understand how that's relevant though?  I can't help but feel that you're answering some question about me pushing the grade, but that's not what my OP was about.  It was about climbing routes a couple of grades below my top grade (or not climbing them as the case may be - giving up instead), therefore in theory I'm less likely to fall off them anyway.

Anyways, off to the Lakes now, have a good weekend climbing in the sun.

[lagerstarfish]

Been thinking about this stuff today whilst talking to drunk people.
Nearest I can get to what I think you are talking about is the feeling when I can't do a boulder problem that I have previously climbed with relative ease - I don't mean when I can't do it first go, I mean when I can't do it at all. This usually hits me hard when I can neither remember my old sequence, nor work it out anew. Am I on the right track for the type of feeling you are talking about, Cider? I deal with it by having a good laugh at myself and remembering that its only climbing and so not really that important.
I have certainly climbed with other people who have had proper screaming tantrums at not finding routes (which are well below their grade) easy enough - you know who you are Joe Picalli. 

[Houdini]

Having just re-read your OP word for word you make at least 3 references to striving forward/pushing and many references to grade.  I also think that your OP is as wooly as a mammoth and desperate to fathom in a usable/answerable way.  On a number of occassions you appear to have problems in thinking laterally - just a tiny shift, not out of the box -  as to why things may be relevant.  Alas, in doing so, slowly but surely, you have crushed any enthusiasm or interest I may have had in this thread.

To me, your OP question is bizarre and negative and any answers you may get by posting it are likely to be unhelpful to you.  Just enjoy the climbing.