[Doylo]

Is there some unwritten rule where nothing's allowed to be harder than 8b on slate? This "8b, hard 8b, top end 8b" etc bollocks sounds like it is just that. I would wager that both these amazing looking routes are at least 8b+. In fact wasn't The New Slatesman described as a 7c with a 7C+ boulder problem on top of it? That doesn't sound like 8b to me. It was also mentioned as being "considerably harder" than other 8b routes - so that'll be 8b+ then. I get why people dont want to be seen to be overgrading but there has to be a point when you move things up a grade or it just gets silly. 

Great to see stuff like this getting done, whatever the grade.

I was thinking exactly that, if these routes are significantly harder than Bungles then either downgrade Bungles or give them 8b+, Pete and Caff are definetly both capable, especially at this style.

[Drew]

Well this much more like it, proper debate.

8b?  I can't say much about that personally (close on t/rope one time...but not enough).   How many 8b's on slate are there?  2 confirmed:  Bungle's Arete, T V B & T V S (oddly Dawes used to say that this was 8b+ in pinks, 8c in any other boot; but it's settled @ 8b+).  Then there's The Serpent's Vein 8b (another voice suggests differently) & now Sauron 8b (both unrepeated) and of course, New Slatesman 8b.  So whilst the first two routes have seen fair action, by the pair  doing the moving and shaking (Pete/Caff), no-one has touched the rest. 

I don't want to incur the wrath of Houdini, but as far as I was aware, Pete hasn't done Bungles or Very Big / Small. Bobbie's Groove (well we've all seen Hard XS surely), but neither of the two mentioned. Caff yes to both I believe. However Ding Dong has done Bungles recently. So should he be counted as a mover and shaker?

[Houdini]

Has Pete not done Bungles? I thought he had, doesn't matter if we are confused.  Your right about TVB & TVS, that's Caff & McC.

Should Pete be counted as a mover and shaker?  Erm . . .   Drew.  Is 8b not enough? Check the thread title mate   cf - Rowan 7c+; Menopausal Discharge; Bobby's. Aquaint yourself . . .

He's also done far more than most in the quarries, that includes you and I.  Be careful what you say . . .

[Drew]

I'm not suggesting Pete isn't a big name in the quarries. Elsewhere too (Master's Edge). I was merely wondering if an ascent of Bungles by Pete had passed me by. I could well be wrong, but I don't think he's done it. I might go and ask Neil if he knows.

As for his ticklist, I'm very impressed. He's also bigger than I am, so I'm not gonna say a word against him 

Pete and Caff are definitely two of the biggest names in the quarries at the moment. I can't argue with that.

[Houdini]

It's hard to keep up w/ Pete & Caff. Too much spaz waddage between them.

[Houdini]

But it's got more to do w/ just new routing.  There's been so much time-consuming and strenuous volunteer re-bolting work done by Robins, Reeves, Caff, Gelerd et al.  In the process, a lot of amazing lines have seen repeats, for example Perry Hawkins' mega arete, Heatseeker. (Proper old skool wad, Perry.  Brilliant line too.)

I'd still like to get hold of a couple of tirfors and pull away the fallen block at the foot of The Clour Purple.  That's a great boulder problem start to a really individual route.  It's not pie-in-the-sky, it could be done.

[Doylo]

Pete has done Bungles.

[Houdini]

Like I said, I almost never wrong 

[Pantontino]

Another pic of Sauron here:

http://www.groundupclimbing.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=207

[Houdini]

Now this is a style of photography that I really approve of.  The climber has less opportunity to use it to massage his ego (striated muscle tissue etc..) as he is shown w/ in the context of his greater environment.  The best example of this is a liitle more extreme and it's one of the shots in One for the Crow.  It's of JR on the main wall or pinnacle and he is barely there.  It's not real of course, it's a set up on an ab' rope but nevertheless one would find it hard to see it as a posed image.

(I'll break some CP in a mo' and provide the pic, JR won't care and if he moans I'm give him a Chinese burn later  )

[Houdini]

The shot I meant isn't actually this one (as one can barely see the climber on Rite of Spring, too extreme an example).

Here is JR on Shaft of the Dead Man E7 6C, taken by a living hero of mine (and a well-underrated snapper), M. E. Crook.  But you get the drift of my offtopic bull, non?



This is my favourite set-up climbing shot.

[Paul B]

Now this is a style of photography that I really approve of.  The climber has less opportunity to use it to massage his ego (striated muscle tissue etc..) as he is shown w/ in the context of his greater environment.  The best example of this is a liitle more extreme and it's one of the shots in One for the Crow.  It's of JR on the main wall or pinnacle and he is barely there.  It's not real of course, it's a set up on an ab' rope but nevertheless one would find it hard to see it as a posed image.

(I'll break some CP in a mo' and provide the pic, JR won't care and if he moans I'm give him a Chinese burn later  )

It doesn't really tell you much about the climbing though does it? I prefer pics that show you the style or type of climbing that the route has to offer, that way its inspring.

[andy popp]

Indeed, this has made me go straight to And One for the Crow. The shot above, and those of Margins of the Mind and to a lesser extent Womb Bits are amongst my favourite climbing shots period. In fact I like them because of their staginess. These are photos designed to have something to say about climbing - specifically here about its context in the natural world, that matched perfectly the concerns JR explored in the writing. There should be two types of climbing photography; reportage that captures events as they happen, its value lies in its newsworthiness or historical value - think the very best war photography. Aesthetic considerations have to be secondary and staged is by definition out. The second type is the designed exemplified by these Cloggy shots or John Cleare's Rock Climbers in Action in Snowdonia. Of course these categories have always blurred (think the famous Capra image of a soldier in the moment of being shot during the Spanish civil war now much disputed) but unfortunately, much climbing photography now is a totally bastard hybrid of the staged masquerading as reportage, having the worst faults of both and little of that which makes either valuable.

[andy popp]

Now this is a style of photography that I really approve of.  The climber has less opportunity to use it to massage his ego (striated muscle tissue etc..) as he is shown w/ in the context of his greater environment.  The best example of this is a liitle more extreme and it's one of the shots in One for the Crow.  It's of JR on the main wall or pinnacle and he is barely there.  It's not real of course, it's a set up on an ab' rope but nevertheless one would find it hard to see it as a posed image.

(I'll break some CP in a mo' and provide the pic, JR won't care and if he moans I'm give him a Chinese burn later  )

It doesn't really tell you much about the climbing though does it? I prefer pics that show you the style or type of climbing that the route has to offer, that way its inspring.

Paul, what could be more inspiring than thinking about being there, in that place?

[Jaspersharpe]

but unfortunately, much climbing photography now is a totally bastard hybrid of the staged masquerading as reportage, having the worst faults of both and little of that which makes either valuable.

 

[Houdini]

It doesn't really tell you much about the climbing though does it? I prefer pics that show you the style or type of climbing that the route has to offer, that way its inspring.

Your quote seems out of place w/ what this picture depicts. A man making moves on an arete/wall climb on classic mountain Cloggy rock.  What could be more obvious?

I know what you mean though Paul_ as I know what is more obvious: you mean shots that show the cross-through into the high-step to the undercut.

Arithmetic as opposed to poetry?  Fair do's.  Different strokes . . .

[Paul B]

It doesn't really tell you much about the climbing though does it? I prefer pics that show you the style or type of climbing that the route has to offer, that way its inspring.

Your quote seems out of place w/ what this picture depicts. A man making moves on an arete/wall climb on classic mountain Cloggy rock.  What could be more obvious?

I know what you mean though Paul_ as I know what is more obvious: you mean shots that show the cross-through into the high-step to the undercut.

Arithmetic as opposed to poetry?  Fair do's.  Different strokes . . .

I think either you or I are confused, the photo I was referring to was the one of Sauron, this one in fact:

[Houdini]

OK.  Start again.  Slate is known for it's ease of reading but technical difficulty of the move.  Once you've done a bit it's all obvious (difficult/contortionate/thin/precarious, but largely obvious).  Probably a bit like grit when you've enough rock aquaintance (which I haven't, I find it most baffling . . . ).

But again I think I know what you're driving at:  In this pic you've no idea if the climbing is friable (always an issue here) or rock solid a la Dark Half et al; big or small holds etc.. .  Yes, that's true, and you have a valid point.  I still don't find muscle-boys so cool though.

[andy popp]

My apologies too Paul, I thought you meant the Cloggy pic. Still like the sense of scale in the Sauron shot tho'.

[Houdini]

You pair are bumming my brain:  I think the two pictures very similar . . .   

[Paul B]

My apologies too Paul, I thought you meant the Cloggy pic. Still like the sense of scale in the Sauron shot tho'.

no problemo.

Houdini: Yeah they are very similar, I just think the Sauron pic lacks the sense of atmosphere and exposure thats shown in the other pic, anyway this is well  and just personal opinion.

[andy popp]

You pair are bumming my brain

I always aim to please.

[grimer]

I bet the Sauron pic would look great if it were reproduced very large with tons of lovely detail. Seems too big for the web.