[Monolith]

I'm really fucking lazy and I boulder. What's inherently wrong with being lazy?

From my understanding of Merseyside sandstone climbing 'back in the day', I'm not surprised the move let alone the problem was an eliminate one.

Ice climbing bores me to shit but I won't attempt to belittle it (like I sort of have just done).

Letting your foolish bouldering comment slip away Stevie,

Yours,

Tom.

[GCW]

Ice climbing bores me to shit but I won't attempt to belittle it (like I sort of have just done).

Depends what sort you are referring to....

[lagerstarfish]

I feel that it is important for me to publicly acknowledge that I boulder not only because I am too lazy to climb, but also because I am too scared.

Afraid and lazy

Rob

[dave]

someone actually bought me the dougal haston book for my birthday, so hopefully there'll be some details about this problem therein. I'll keep you all posted.

[meatball]

what i'm tryin to say is that drivin to the crag in a hot boxed state ( mono will relate to me here ) is a total different thing to bein lazy!
Bouldering is not lazy!! Just peoples attitudes to it!!

[nik at work]

I can't believe Stevie Haston name checks Monolith and Houdini and totally blanks me.

He's right on my shit list now...

[Houdini]

All we need is 20 strong men and me (& possibly a man w/ a tazer gun and bullwhip) - we'd kick the crap out of him 

PS Meatball - Like me, Stevie gets driven to the crag.

[meatball]

sorry Houdini, i hot box and drive myself

[Dolph]

I personally find myself a little bit disappointed and confused after Steve's comments.

I personally have a massive respect for the climbers who have gone before me. It was  because of my love of walking in the footsteps of climbing legends that i even interested in climbing this line. I was really pleased to find the line, with pads could be climb ground up as a highball as a really good boulder problem. Good moves and history always make for a classic problem. The fact that it now appears from Steve's Comments that its eliminate with you being forced to using a small pocket higher up than i had my right hand. 6m or so of the ground.

This leaves me with some questions about the History of this line that i hope someone who knows, As Steve is away swimming, can answer.

1. First of all was the Haston Dyno first climbed as an eliminate or not? Does Steve feel he climb this a different way and this was harder than he saw me do it? Or did he do a deliberate eliminate on an established line

2. If it was done as an eliminate on an original line what was the proposed grade of the "pure line" that went up this fantastic piece of wall. In the old guide book there is line going up here called Philly Winks it is graded Fr8a with a British 7a move, was this it? After Reading the info on the Breck Wiki site the Haston Dyno is described as exactly the same line:

"Steve Haston visited the Breck in 1979/80 and upped the ante with a legendary dyno problem that is still reckoned to be around the Brit 7a mark (probably Font 7c+/V10). The legendary dyno in question is not an eliminate. It starts at the alcove ("fireplace") in the centre of the overhanging wall and moves up to two obvious flat holds in the diagonal break before flying direct from these to the similarly obvious housebrick-shaped rectangular slot This was first done as a top rope problem by Haston in 1979 or 1980 in a single session and repeated shortly afterwards by Keith Jones. Mike Collins also made some progress on the problem using an intermediate hold for the left hand but it is not known if he ever completed it using this method." - "the dyno remained the obvious direct challenge and was "harder than V10s at Hueco" according to Haston".

Is this info wrong? As it seems to suggest someone having a different sequence on a eliminate dyno and making progress.

3. Of the people who have climb this line eliminate or not what grades were suggested. The move i made at the top felt hard and i personally was not questioning it being a 7a move. (The 7b quote was a throw away comment made in a cafe). The only problem i have done that felt similar is Turbo Clinex a highball 8a dyno in Spain which is not as high but does have the same feel.  But I may just be totally out as i often am.

4. when Steve gave the grade was given for this does it take into account all of the climbing up to the dyno. This is not hard compared with the jump but it defiantly adds some pump. Or was it just for the jump.

I am personally a bit disappointed because if this line turns out to be an eliminate top rope problem then the line loses something. As the pure line what ever that is trumps the high of the deck eliminate. The pure line then sadly loses some of its historical appeal. My personal feelings then are an eliminate whilst impressive as a move someone made back in the late 70's, becomes just a move someone did for the challenge alone and something i personally would not be that bothered about repeating.

I hope someone who has either talked to Steve or actually has first had experience from back then can clarify these issues. As someone who loves the mersyside climbing scene i feel it would be good to get all this clarified especially before the proposed release of a new guide covering the area.

[Houdini]

What a lovely post Dolph.

Welcome.  (5 wads in 2 posts is unheard of.)  You should speak up more often.  It's normal for soft voices like yours to be drowned-out by those w/ bigger lungs . . .

[GCW]

I agree- Dolph, you make valid points.
Myself, I feel a little disappointed by people this year.  Initially the Dave Buchanan stuff, now Stevie Haston.  Whilst we can not guarantee these people are who they say they are, we have to assume so.  And working on this assumption, these 2 have lowered my opinions of them.  Not that that matters to them, but egos seem to require a massage.

Dolph, well done for your efforts, based on the info you had.   

[nik at work]

(5 wads in 2 posts is unheard of.) 

Unless you have a killer cheesecake recipe, in which case 6 in 1 is not unheard of...

[andy popp]

Sadly Dolph, I doubt there will be much clarity on exactly who did what when (this isn't to say I don't beleive what Stevie said in his post) - talking to a very longtime Merseyside local recently it was clear much activity here (including this line) has always been shrouded in mystery, as befits an area dominated by local climbers forced to find playful ways of using limited local resources and with 'history' (and lines) being passed down through word of mouth rather than definitive descriptions. Personally, for the guide I'd record the 'pure' line with an historical note on Stevie's undoubtedly pioneering eliminate.

BTW, I think everyone should cool the heels re: Stevie, he always was a provocative, combatative fellow (sometimes for the good, sometimes not)and will no doubt be pissing himself at how het up we've got about his intervention.

Oh, and props on this and Monoblock.

[nik at work]

I think Stevie is the only one who appears to be het up at all. Everyone else appears to be displaying a genuine curiosity and interest in establishing the facts coupled with a healthy dose of humour. Apart from Houdini, but his default setting appears to be het anyway so I wouldn't read to much into it....

[Houdini]

Nah you're wrong about that Nik.  But as a Llanber' local (and you is ain't) I'm privvy to a great deal more accurate info than you. 

(Of course, this is not internet material.)  You appear to have a great ability to see the worst in people, bit like me really...

[GCW]

Apart from Houdini,

Don't worry 'bout Houd, he's a cunt.  

Seriously though, the Haston Dyno is always spoken of in hushed tones, with nothing but respect.  It's just one of those old skool problems that grabs the attention.  It's never been well documented, and someone repeated it in good faith.  And then someone throws it back in their face with a dose of the salts.  A bit unnecessary I think- we should applaud people for taking an interest in these old problems.  Yeah, correct inaccuracies and clear things up for posterity.  But don't get arsey, then go on the defensive that your grade is under attack.  It isn't, but the full facts have never been clear.

[Houdini]

cunt.  

Eh . . . Wah . . . 

[Dolph]

Personally i don't care about the grade as much as a care about the historical accuracies

Sadly Dolph, I doubt there will be much clarity on exactly who did what when (this isn't to say I don't believe what Stevie said in his post) - talking to a very longtime Merseyside local recently it was clear much activity here (including this line) has always been shrouded in mystery, as befits an area dominated by local climbers forced to find playful ways of using limited local resources and with 'history' (and lines) being passed down through word of mouth rather than definitive descriptions.

This is all good but is doesn't clear up if the non eliminate line is any different to the Steves proposed eliminate. Is there a difference in grade. Hence there would be no need for a foot note and it could stay as a pure non eliminate problem. Do you know Andy if anyone who has done this line as a non eliminate has commented on the grade?

The ironic thing in all this is that when i was up there i saw the two finger hold Steve mentions and thought about going to it as it would have brought me nearer to the slot. But decided against it as i thought it being a dyno, would have been done from the slots as was suggested.

[Monolith]

The quote you took from the Cheshire sandstone guide pretty much sums it all up eh Dolph? Going from the local bible, you've climbed what's printed as the haston dyno, only to be told by the ascentionist that's not the problem.

Confusing indeed.

[Will Hunt]

Whilst we can not guarantee these people are who they say they are, we have to assume so.

It's Mick Ryan in disguise! 

[Will Hunt]

Mike, if you want to round up (or even continue, not sure if your in the pool to stay or just visiting) your Merseyside hardcore routes run and dont mind pushing the boat out a bit go and do The Famous Alto Sax Break with a side runner or three in Dateline. Its never been lead and is supposed to be the hardest of the big routes at Pex.

[BenF]

Mike, not sure if your in the pool to stay or just visiting

He used to live here Will but even though he lives much closer to many "quality" crags, he can't seem to stay away from the wonderful world of Pex, Frodsham and latterly, the Breck.  Strange but true. 

Personally I'm also utterly in love with Merseyside climbing at the moment and even drove back from Earl Crag on Sunday to climb at Pex instead.  Also strange but true.

[webbo]

like his name sake dougal.stevie wasn't always a super hero.
think a long the lines of salt and a eliminate wall at the snore.

[andy popp]

Mike, I know my post didn't clear much up, but in a way that's the point - for even the most long-term of locals, like Pete, this line has always been very uncertain. At least we now know what Stevie did now, even if not what others did. Anyway, it sounds like his version is very little different to the pure, non-eliminate one you did, not enough to be significant - just as for me the differences between how Joe and everyone else have done Monoblock is insignificant, using a different sequence doesn't make for different routes. Lots of routes can be climbed using different sequences.

Anyway, this is from another lover of Merseyside climbing, roll on the Helsby season!

[nik at work]

Sorry this is all off topic

Nah you're wrong about that Nik.  But as a Llanber' local (and you is ain't) I'm privvy to a great deal more accurate info than you. 

I know I'm not a Llanber' local, but isn't it in Wales? How would that make you privvy to accurate information about a problem in Merseyside? Or is my geography weaker than I first imagined.

(Of course, this is not internet material.)  You appear to have a great ability to see the worst in people, bit like me really...

Ooooooo cloaks and daggers, how exciting...
You think I was being critical? Not at all. Merely pointing out that on this forum you are an especially "high energy" poster who argues his corner with a certain passion. I'm afraid I didn't use a smiley to convey the fact that I was being tongue in check when stating that het is your default setting. I thought it was obvious, and I'm not a huge fan of smileys anyway. I'll know for next time.

I don't think I see the worst in people. What I do see is what is put on display by a poster, and if I have no other frame of reference for that person then I can only assess them based on their postings. Innacurate? Almost certainly.