[Houdini]

Try your best to stay on topic pal . . .

[Paul B]

You'll take concentrated Vit C etc. there's no difference. This is all getting a bit circular and frankly 

[Houdini]

Phew . . .    Fear not Paul Dr Jekyll has returned.   Actually I won't personally take concentrated Vit C (I've no need of it - I eat fresh fruit and veg every day, normally organic produce), hell I won't take Ibuprofen or asprin less I'm insane w/pain.  And to be specific, why would I to help me train?  It won't make me more powerful, it won't aid the release of energy, it won't help me gain muscle mass, it won't increase my endurance - creatine will and in the heat of argument that fact has been overshadowed with talk of Vit C etc..

I will take marsala superiore which I 'd recommend to anyopne looking to get leary as fook    whic surely does have a negative effect on all things - including typing 

Let me try (now I have my faculties once more) . . .   Creatine is not concentrated steak juice.  Creatine is creatine: It has a performance-enhancing effect, it really is not the same as conc . . .   whatever term you care to use, it's not the same as a controlled diet as redmeats contain many compounds - only one of which is creatine.  I appreciate that you feel on the spot but then is anyone else here answering my questions?  (The bit underlined there, that one, that's the important part.)

But feel free to leave this one Paul_B, it's obvious you've had enough (it really doesn't matter what I think, or anyone now, does it?  The most I've said (ignoring drunken piffle - such are the dangers of latenight posting) is that I think it would be unreasonable and an unnatural for me to take this performance-enhancing laboratory product:  I truly doubt they refine it from steak, but make it do novo:)  again - this is opinion, just opinion.)  But you've stated your case Paul & that was neat, you can let this one slide as it's all down to personal preference innt, choices choices choices . . .   there are simply tooooo many to make in life.

Question:  are there any performance enhancing compounds people WONT take? (to stretch this thread and continue what is an interesting subject.  Paul_ need not bore himself further by answering)

[Houdini]

   Blimey, alcohol hey??  All that swearing in foreign languages, totally out of order, please - my apologies folks.

*doffs hat, bows, looks terribly sheepish*

[Yossarian]

As I said - only Paul_B & Yoss have something to add . . .

To our milkshakes?!

I was going to try sodium phosphate loading when I was biking lots last year. there's a thing about it here - http://www.e-caps.com/downloads/sodiumphosphate_loading.pdf

Personally, I think it's going to take a lot more than a tub of powder to turn me into some kind of sporting superman, and as a result I don't have any major ethical dilemmas about going down the Ben Johnson route. After all, there aren't many 16th century playwrights who can claim to have won an olympic gold, steroids or no steroids...

[Houdini]

That's an interesting article, the results speak for themselves.

I also think it will take more to turn you into a superman, but people don't use performance enhancing products if they don't get results.  One of the reasons why this subject fascinates me so deeply is that it never ceases to amaze what people are prepared to put in their bodies.  I'm flabbergasted I chose to tab for 12 years - what a nutty and destructive thing to do; nuttier when you cross-ref w/an extremely healthy diet and an interest in a very physical outdoor activity & training regime.  Utter madness.  I noticed bouldering gains quite quickly when I quit smoking.

Frankly, the brain says don't touch the stuff but the thighs would love a dose of creatine w/it's recovery benefits - like yesterday, Doc - as one's leg muscles feel truly trounced.  This too (as Paul_B pointed out) is quite an advantage, especially to those whose climbing is strongly goal-based.

Does anyone here know any boulderer/s that use anabolic steroids? 

[webbo]

from the sound of your testosterone fueled rants it would appear you do.

[Houdini]

Marsala fuelled, matey.  Actually there's very little testosterone in me, as one can tell by my fine head of hair w/no hint of a bald patch and only the odd grey hair . . .  Argue w/that Grandad 

You know a lot about training and performance Webbo, what do you think about creatine use?  (Yes I know it's not a protein - but all good threads wander.)

[webbo]

i use it.

[Krank]

I think if you wanna use creatine in a non competition situation thats fine, but how do people feel about the advantages of other non natural advantages such as chalk and sticky rubber? Im not trying to compare them to the use of creatine but i feel that you could obtain the levels of ability that creatine gives you by becoming very strong, but we would be screwed if you took away sticky rubber and chalk. I think these 2 items give more of an advantage than Creatine

[Houdini]

Krank - you're post is kinda . . .   um . . .   Kranky.    Have you been drinking?   



Comparing creatine use w/sticky rubber is ludicrous.  Without modern boots we would not be here now in a bouldering forum, there would be no modern bouldering.  Modern bouldering could survive perfectly without creatine use.

Again, no personal criticisms indended, do what feel is right for you and your goals.  I'm merely curious to know how people feel about the practice.

[slackline]

mmm'kay

[webbo]

my reason for using it are based on being veggie.i don't eat that much protein when i look at what i'm eating.so i use it and also whey protein on occasion as well as recovery drinks.i did notice an increase in strength when i first used it but it wasn't that significant not to have been a placebo effect.
also as you often point out i am getting on in life and need to use anything to delay the ageing process.

[Krank]

If only i had been drinking . I wasn't trying to compare the use of sticky rubber/chalk directly to creatine use. I was thinking about the different advantages that are gained by using different products and where people see fit to draw a line. I certainly couldn't climb as hard as i do (which ain't that hard) without sticky rubber and chalk and i don't think twice about using them when i go out climbing but creatine use seems to make me think hard about the advantages i gain while using it.
On a side point do people use creatine when they go out to the crag or just while training

[Paul B]

Creatine is not concentrated steak juice.  Creatine is creatine: It has a performance-enhancing effect, it really is not the same as conc . . .   

My point was its readily available in red meat, I was merely proving my point that financially my shakes work out a lot cheaper than buying the necessary amount of steak to get the same level, as you said I was talking nonsense about that.

But feel free to leave this one Paul_B, it's obvious you've had enough

It just strikes me that when a counter argument, say on a financial basis, is put forward we gloss back to something that is altogether more subjective.

If you feel guilty even thinking about taking a supplement then don't.

If you don't, are a hard gainer, or you're recovery stinks get drinking.

Comparing creatine use w/sticky rubber is ludicrous.  Without modern boots we would not be here now in a bouldering forum, there would be no modern bouldering.  Modern bouldering could survive perfectly without creatine use.

Again this is daft, of course it could survive, it would just be at a lower level. I mean some people still choose to climb wearing Boreal Rubber...


On the anabolic steroid point you raised, I don't know any boulderers that have used it (for climbing) but two people I know used to train together down at Hallam Uni's gym, one guy started a course of steroids the other decided not to, the difference between them was huge, Steroid Man could basically see large gains each session where as No Juice man saw little progress. He didn't seem to notice any side effects either although I'm sure no one took their measuring tape to him. Steriod Man has since started climbing, Juice less man has always climbed.

[Johnny B Badd]

When I took Creatine 'Mono', I put on 6 kilos in two weeks 


Kinda, all water-volumisation at the cellular level (hence the recommendation to drink 4 litres of water per day). Great if you're Bodybuilding, but a bit counter-productive for those pinkie pull-ups, n'est pas?

Are you taking CEE, Paul? Supposidly 'no-bloat'. I've got a tub here, but I'm waiting for some 'battery-acid' to arrive, as a flavour-enhancer  .

[Paul B]

No, ive steered clear of CEE as I don't really see any benefit for me because I don't seem to have an issue with water loading, maybe try avidoing the loading dose if your prone to putting on that much water weight so quickly?

I've also been told that it tastes like Satan's feces even if you do mix it with some strong flavoring. If i was going to change to anything it would be Creapure but the stat difference between it and regular creatine mono just isn't worth it.
If you are buying this kind of stuff i'd definitely recommend MyProtein, its ridiculously cheap. Ps - you can use cordial to flavour CEE - supposedly strong blackcurrant's etc. do the job well enough.

[Houdini]

The caveat present w/ my comment concerning rubber iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis:   the word MODERN before bouldering.  Some peoples memories travel further back than yours youth    Ask Webbo.  A minor fairly off-topic point, but that can be good sometimes.  (Yes of course we would be in a forum - that was piffle - but we would not be where we are now, like you said).

And you don't require steak of the finest most expensive variety to get the big C - any red meat is sufficient.  This is not expensive, also would it truly work out too expensive for you? (flabbergasted smiley) Strewth, times are rougher than I thought, I'll have a whip-round for you at the Con Club later tonite 

Your tone is sounding a bit narked Paul_ there really is no need - I'm not Dave Buchanan y'know 


6 kilos in 2 weeks - fuck me backwards . . .   What is happening to our pursuit  . . .

[webbo]

i wondered where you'd gone,i thought that like myself you'd nipped out to pick up the wifes dry cleaning and another 500g of creatine.

[Houdini]

Oh I forgot.  Ja - je suis veggie too and I did for an extremely short while consider taking the creatine to get built quicker or die trying, but a little research revealed that there are so many wholefoods that a vegetarian can boost his protein intake, for example, red lentils are a whopping 23% protein;  pumpkin seeds even more.  It's all do-able.

[Paul B]

The caveat present w/ my comment concerning rubber iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis:   the word MODERN before bouldering.  Some peoples memories travel further back than yours youth    Ask Webbo.  A minor fairly off-topic point, but that can be good sometimes.  (Yes of course we would be in a forum - that was piffle - but we would not be where we are now, like you said).

Thats still doesn't matter, if you put limitations on what you can do you ultimately put limitations on where the top level can PHYSICALLY be whether its boot type or supplementation

And you don't require steak of the finest most expensive variety to get the big C - any red meat is sufficient.  This is not expensive, also would it truly work out too expensive for you? (flabbergasted smiley) Strewth, times are rougher than I thought, I'll have a whip-round for you at the Con Club later tonite 

51g per week needed 1g per 8 oz of red meat = 408 oz of red meat a week
creatine monohydrate £13.43/Kg    51g = roughly 70p

even eating shin of beef (which will probably have a lot less creatine per oz) I think i'm going to struggle there (this was all a bit rushed as i'm eating so please politely point out any errors)...
Please follow it through so we can once and for all cut out this cost nonsense.

[Houdini]

Paul - your evidence is conclusive, I bow - nay grovel - before your mathematic prowess.

How much creatine is there in Onyx compared to Boreal?  And what should I mix it with?

[Paul B]

a heavy dose of ketamin perhaps?

[Houdini]

*sigh*




I guess things are different now, must be a generational thing?


*shrugs & says small prayer*


(I tried ketamine just the once - never ever 'kin ever again.  That's for drug-perverts, man *spit* thank that imaginary God I don't do that kind of stuff anymore . . . )

[Paul B]

you sure?

I really haven't got anything else constructive to add to the right vs. wrong argument so i'll leave this topic, unless its has a severe change of direction: CEE vs Mono etc.