[Houdini]

You cunt GCW, you've been holding-out on me, where do they sell MDMA over the counter??  My very occassional use of illegal drugs has nothing to do w/training.  Lets keep this on topic, it's a big one.

I too have have a science degree.  I'm a molecular biologist/parasitologist (look at me!)

[Paul B]

To be quite plain and honest No - as I just wouldn't be strict enough to impose a good enough diet on myself (and indirectly on my girlfriend), I would therefore require longer periods of rest between sessions and hence longer in total, however I do firmly believe that I could have achieved the same results by employing a more focused diet plan to replace my Rego intake etc. I feel fairly confident about that statement as well.

Is the book readily available? I can't be bothered to go hunting it down.

Thinking about that 1st point a little more: of course I would have to say No or else I'm pretty much saying that the stuff I spent money on was a waste of time. I'm not a fool when it comes to training and if something doesn't work i'll move on,  I didn't and I've recommended it to others.

[Yossarian]

It is a fucking good read, that's for sure...

Myself, I'll take whatever's going. Which isn't anything at the moment, cos all my weights are in storage and my board is no more.

But I certainly don't see any difference between some bloke eating 10 chicken breasts a day and someone else mixing up some banana flavoured protein powder.

However, despite this standpoint, I must say that I admire Houdini's integrity. If it feels like cheating, it probably is...

[Houdini]

Look here for the book

[Houdini]

I want to make it 100% clear that I am 100% pro choice and I will fight to the death for your right to snort pure ground asbestos if you so wish.



I am too indifferent to the achievements of other to condemn. 

The opinions expressed here are my own and I don't give a willy wave from Big Dick Black if anyone takes creatine/roids/heroin.

[GCW]

Creatine- essentially all muscle uses/produces creatine via CK.  Having more creatine should mean you have more ATP available and thus more muscle power/stamina.
Burke DG, Chilibeck PD, Parise G, Candow DG, Mahoney D, Tarnopolsky M (2003). "Effect of creatine and weight training on muscle creatine and performance in vegetarians". Medicine and science in sports and exercise 35 (11): 1946–55 looked at vegetarians (veg hasn't got any creatine in it).  Vegetarians had lower muscle creatine levels.  These rise when they consume creatine.
Gallo ME, Maclean IM, Tyreman N, Martins KJ, Syrotuik D, Gordon T, Putman CT. Adaptive responses to creatine loading and exercise in fast-twitch rat skeletal muscle. Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2008 Jan 23   showed creatine supports faster muscle.  But only if it is adequately supported by the existing glycolytic potential, without changes in the capacity for terminal substrate oxidation.
Other than that there isn't a huge amount of reliable data to support the use of creatine (unless anyone knows of anything I've missed).

With regards to side-effects, I can't see significant evidence for liver damage.
SCIENCE, Word.  But you knew that already Houd.

For me, creatine is one supplement.  It needs various other conditions to be of benefit.  Ergo, I can't be bothered with it.  I'll stick to beer.

[Jaspersharpe]

I'll stick to beer.

Amen to that brother. 

[Falling Down]

I've had the odd spell of taking a Creatine/HMB supplement when training or on surfing trips and I have to say it works wonders for recovery and extra power.  I'm a fast twitch/bulky build and it certainly packs on the beef when I've used it.

Like Yoss I admire Houdini's puritanism..

As for snorting coke before climbing though WTF ?? I'd soon lose interest and end up wanting to f*ck my belayer.

[nik at work]

I kind of agree with Houdinis standpoint. On pretty much all counts although I tend not to take over-the-counter drugs and don't drink (well very occassionally) and don't smoke or take drugs.

If you want to take creatinine good luck to you, personally my climbing performance is not so important to me that I feel the need to use 'unnatural' supplements. Obviously unnatural is not the right term but you get the meaning.

I have no great reason for taking this standpoint, although Houdinis "oldfashioned revelling in his amateurism" sounds like an appealing justification.

Anyway my question is:
Surely creatinine is broken down during digestion isn't it? Or has my knowledge gone seriously South since leading academia?

[saltbeef]

creatine not creatinine.

[Paul B]

If you want to take creatinine good luck to you, personally my climbing performance is not so important to me that I feel the need to use 'unnatural' supplements. Obviously unnatural is not the right term but you get the meaning.

Not really? its naturally available BUT I can't afford that much steak a week nor have the ability to cram it in my cake hole regularly enough.

[nik at work]

Sorry Saltbeef, I am several years the wrong side of leaving academia. Can you answer the question re: digestive breakdown though?
Paul perhaps processed would be a better term? At the end of the day lots of things are refined natural products or derivatives there of. I suppose in my eyes creatine represents a product which is too far down the scale of proceesededness for my personal consumption on a non medical basis. But I offer no criticism of you for using it. I'm more interested in the answer to the question above, and its mode of working rather than a should you shouldn't you debate.

[GCW]

It is recommended you take a high GI food (30 grams dextrose) +/- taurine just before taking creatine.  This is supposed to give an insulin boost, which somehow helps absorption.  Another important aspect is drinking over 4000ml of water a day whilst taking creatine, to ensure proper usage.
As far as I am aware, there is minimal digestion of creatine in the stomach.

[Houdini]

Thus far: Yoss, Paul_B have been 110% honest about what they do & dont do.  Mad props (I take that back - no props - fuck off ! - Where did this phrase come from?)  Concerning their use of anabolic compounds; this is the tip off, eh? (Please I do not understand that either)  It is clear & I cannot deny - my trip is the anabolic path - Please:  to admire me is to admit defeat . . .  tis true I may be a bottle of the fine4st Masala in Hamburg down - but I can distinguish advantage from disadvantage.   Absolutle & utter respect goes out to DAVID NODEN: who gavaway his creatine to a friend and refused pont blank to take this biological advantage, and chose to struggle as nature intended.  Dave, you and I are brothers.  For we are truly fucked on booze.  Shalzbon.)  Fuck my spelling Buchanan et fick dich auch, arschloch.


Howdeee pardner!

Does any one else have anything to contribute or must Yoss & Paul_B hold the fort . . .?

[Houdini]

BUT I can't afford that much steak a week nor have the ability to cram it in my cake hole regularly enough.

Quatsch!  Piffle.  This is the biggest fib you ever did tell.  Paul_B If you can afford creatine you can afford steak - don't bullshit me pal!

[GCW]

Houdinininini:

[Houdini]

As I said - only Paul_B & Yoss have something to add . . .

[GCW]

  TURTLE

[Houdini]

You bastard!

Now you employ nostalgia to break my heart strings you bastard you!



Pléase - Je suis geficked und mein input has kein platz in diese discussion . . .    As That guy w/the bass & afro said: Don't believe a word.

[Houdini]

Touche Turtle Awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

[Houdini]

Please, would someone care to list something that is not natutarally available?


Heroin is naturally availible though I refuse to use to it to gain access to my 3rd eye . . . .   etc. . . .


Have pity . . .  I'm bashed yet there is a grain of truth somewhere . . . .

[Paul B]

I mean in your diet!

BUT I can't afford that much steak a week nor have the ability to cram it in my cake hole regularly enough.

Quatsch!  Piffle.  This is the biggest fib you ever did tell.  Paul_B If you can afford creatine you can afford steak - don't bullshit me pal!

This discussion should have ended but no:

Most of the creatine in the diet comes from meat (an 8-ounce steak might have a gram)

so there is 5.1g of creatine mon per shake, 2 shakes per training day, 1 per rest day, training 1 day on 1 day off (or was) so as a minimum 3 days training a week 4 days rest to give the lowest amount consumed

 = [(3x2) + (4*1)] *5.1 = 51g of creatine per week

Do we have to take this further given my "myprotein" formula comes out to something like £15/Kg? and to further dimiss your theory if we are talking of purely creatine monohydrate it's £13.43 a kg!!! thats 19 (minimum training weeks per kg) that CANNOT work out to be more expensive than steak?

or is my logic way off...it is possible

[Houdini]

It's a shame only Paul_B wishes to run w/this.

Er. . .  No.

Concentrated steak juice = concentrated steak juice is steak juice minus water = creatine.  No.  Concentrated streak juice is many things.  A fat load, a sugar load , a many-things load bar the purified active ingredient of creatine monophosphate.

[Houdini]

Pls I must stop & sleep as its unfair to leave Paul_B to deal w/this alone.
 
Though I would urge Paul to reconsider what is the definition of naturally available.

[Paul B]

your one very "different" individual...