[AndiT]

Grimer: Nic Sellars on-sighted, solo, The Pride at Lion Rock earlier this year, E6 6b. Painted Rumour has had quite a lot now. Paralogism has been on-sighted by some dutch guy as well. Sole Survivor (E6 6b) has also had the on-sighting and flashing treatment (Shaz, Moi, Gus, Sellars, Heap), needless to say, we may suggest E5, but when you're at the bottom, waiting to get on, you're expecting an E6, if that makes a difference, which I think it does.

Andy Popp, well, perhaps not the hardest E-wise but actually the hardest, still reckon I'll putting an E6 in my guide when I finally get round to it!

[Three Nine]

didn't mean to start a thread like this...

thanks for the belay beta people who offered it!

[grimer]

Okay, make an easy move up to the deep break. Place medium cams. High step into the break with right foot. Lay off arete with right hand and stand in deep break. Then either place right foot in shallow break above and again lay off arete with right hand and use a very shallow 2 finger pocket with the left hand to help balance then stand up in break, then carefully slap right hand up arete until a very good fluting can be reached, then use this to make easier move to top; or, step up in the shallow break with left foot using the small 2 finger pocket to lay off. Then bring up right hand and reach again for the break, then the top. Unless you're very small, it is E6, and if you are tall, it is low in this grade. What people are suggesting is that this route has been climbed ground up enough times as to make it the norm. If you are as strong as you suggest by your name, then perhaps you should consider it in this style. If you choose to headpoint it, then that's entirely up to you and I don't really think anyone has any say over what you choose to do apart from yourself.

[Ena]

A bespoke guidebook service from the BMC! Brilliant. Where's my list... Some good threads on here BTW, keep up the good work.

[Three Nine]

Many thanks for that Grimer. haha name is of an album that was on my desk when registering (I can never think what to put), not a campus thing. If I were very strong, i'd choose a different route to headpoint. But, i've never done a headpoint, am interested to experience this style of ascent, and think that the route is about the right difficulty and also looks totally ace. Ground up is not a realistic proposition for me - it would just take too much time. Even if I had the time to do that many sessions on it, I think i'd run out of belayers pretty quick. I'd like to do a headpoint because I imagine that the experience will be totally new. Like having a sport redpoint project but with the fear.

For the super ethical out there: Divided Years is a route which is full of gear (although the gear is hard to place). Its 8a/+ ish climbing and is not something you'll go splat on, like KK. It is just as good a candidate as KK is for ground upping. But DM headpointed it (lets let DB off for doing the 2nd ascent). Why? Because it would take bloody ages to do ground up, and he only had a short trip to Ireland/couldnt be arsed spending that long on it. The only difference I can see is the standard. Factor in that DM is a 8c+ climber and i might just be a 7c climber, and I don't see much of a difference.

Anyway, cheers all!

[andy popp]

[[/quote]

I'm sure our Mr Popp onsighted Jasmine all on his lonesome way back in t'early 90's.. Andy?
[/quote]

Fraid not, gave it a very quick look on ab, but I was by myself, crag was deserted and I hadn't told anyone where I was going. I had visions of lying mangled and unrescued in the bottom of that pit if I came off.

Andy Popp, well, perhaps not the hardest E-wise but actually the hardest, still reckon I'll putting an E6 in my guide when I finally get round to it!

Don't quite get how that works, but my original comment was tongue in cheek anyway.

JB, I agree it would be good if the gap narrowed but I'm less sure it will. Someone needs to OS E9 to get it down to -1. If the much needed reappraisal of the future of grit is to happen then we need a different way of valuing ascents that privileges style - which is why Grimer's idea of resurrecting a record of good style is a good idea. Another first step would be to ditch the culture of secrecy around OS repeats that seems to have seeped in. Perhaps we should start evaluating people on the basis of their OS/HP gap. For example (taking all rock types into account) I think Dave Mac would be -4, Strong Youth -3, Johnny (interestingly) would be -2, Nick Dixon -1, El Mocho -1 (but 0 on grit?), presumably JB's is unmeasurable as he doesn't headpoint. On grit/sandstone I was at 0 for ages, maybe +.5 for a little bit and then settled at -1.

Those are all guesses pretty much

[grimer]

Three Nine if you did want a good E6 to headpoint, you should pick a gnarly one you will never on-sight. You never know. If you did want an E7 that has yet to be given the treatment, try, maybe, The Bad and the Beautiful.

[Johnny Brown]

Another first step would be to ditch the culture of secrecy around OS repeats that seems to have seeped in.

As far as I know this doesn't exist except for Ross Cowie, who doesn't want to be in the mags for some reason (supposedly due to his dad doing a hard first ascent in the fifties and not telling anyone?) However he has enough friends that I think folk have a reasonable idea what he's done, Unfamiliar being the most impressive I'm aware of.

Perhaps we should start evaluating people on the basis of their OS/HP gap. For example (taking all rock types into account) I think Dave Mac would be -4, Strong Youth -3, Johnny (interestingly) would be -2, Nick Dixon -1, El Mocho -1 (but 0 on grit?), presumably JB's is unmeasurable as he doesn't headpoint.

I did an E2 in Teggs Nose quarry on my seventeenth birthday. In my defence it was a new route and a step towards my understanding ethics  So that makes me +5, same as my ape index  Do I win a prize?

[andy popp]

Another first step would be to ditch the culture of secrecy around OS repeats that seems to have seeped in.

As far as I know this doesn't exist except for Ross Cowie, who doesn't want to be in the mags for some reason (supposedly due to his dad doing a hard first ascent in the fifties and not telling anyone?) However he has enough friends that I think folk have a reasonable idea what he's done, Unfamiliar being the most impressive I'm aware of.

I stand corrected, but from various hints on here over the last few years I kept getting the impression there was a legion of unknown onsighters out there keeping schtumm. So they don't exist?

Perhaps we should start evaluating people on the basis of their OS/HP gap. For example (taking all rock types into account) I think Dave Mac would be -4, Strong Youth -3, Johnny (interestingly) would be -2, Nick Dixon -1, El Mocho -1 (but 0 on grit?), presumably JB's is unmeasurable as he doesn't headpoint.

I did an E2 in Teggs Nose quarry on my seventeenth birthday. In my defence it was a new route and a step towards my understanding ethics  So that makes me +5, same as my ape index  Do I win a prize?

Absolutely. My suggestion wasn't really meant seriously - but it does serve a purpose in highlighting what you would like to see prioritised.

Messed up there, there is a bit from me in the quote from Johnny

[grimer]

A problem with recording it all is the wooliness about terms which you inevitably come up against when recording good style. Remember all the hoo haa about Jordan doing Carmen Picasso? Never has a pigeon been so unwilling to fit in its hole.

[Dolly]

Where bold climbing is concerned that is bound to widen the gap - I've heard of several cases, Seb is the best known, where the headpoint wasn't considered until it had been toproped clean five times in a row. This is a long way form Johnny's ethic.

Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick here, but isn't there a big difference between something that has been done before and forging new ground ?
What I mean is 6b moves which can be held on a rope (KK) and 6c moves which result in a groundfall from 30 feet.Isn't KK the former and Meshuga the latter ?
Just for the record (sorry again if I've misunderstood the intention of the post) but Seb isn't short of boldness or giving something a go when he felt the headpoint was "probably on"

[Fiend]

Interesting debate from what I've skimmed over. I agree with the Johnny Brown / Sloper camp, of course, particularly in the case of almost-safe trade routes.

[Paul B]

A problem with recording it all is the wooliness about terms which you inevitably come up against when recording good style. Remember all the hoo haa about Jordan doing Carmen Picasso? Never has a pigeon been so unwilling to fit in its hole.

I think the hoo haa was mainly down to a highly conflicting and confusing news report.