[Three Nine]

who has done it? was thinking about having a go this winter (as a headpoint). am I likely to go 'splat' if i fall off the last move?

[andy popp]

Not if you have a competent belayer.

[Idol eyes]

I belayed Charlie Woodburn on his ground up attempt! he took three falls, and asked if I could leave a bit more rope out!!!, there is a kooky little trick, if you look down the slabby boulder underneath, there are three steps, I was tracing these as he ascended, and jumping off the platform when he bailed, taking in an arm full of rope as well. I could almost take him to the cams!

[dave]

lets face it though if you're headpointing it properly you aught not to be falling off!

[Johnny Brown]

Should folk really be headpointing routes that werre onsighted nearly ten years ago and are fairly safe to fall off? I don't think so.

[nash1]

Should people really be redpointing 8a's which were onsighted 15 years ago?
What about 'each to their own' and all that?

[Idol eyes]

The only argument I can think of is route traffic, i.e. polishing the holds, where as falling on gear scars the placements... needs soloing!

[andy popp]

Should folk really be headpointing routes that werre onsighted nearly ten years ago and are fairly safe to fall off? I don't think so.

It really is up to them I'm afraid.

[Johnny Brown]

Should people really be redpointing 8a's which were onsighted 15 years ago?
What about 'each to their own' and all that?

Sport climbing is convenience climbing, ethics go out the window when the drill goes in. People climbing on grit should be looking to climb in the best style possible. As Idol eyes says, some of these routes are fragile and won't survive poor climbers flailing on them in topropes - look at Beau Geste. Headpointing, if it has a place, should be limited to new routes. Once a route is established the challenge is to improve on the style of ascent.

Should folk really be headpointing routes that were onsighted nearly ten years ago and are fairly safe to fall off? I don't think so.

It really is up to them I'm afraid.

Well yes it is, but back in the mid nineties when I was working my way through the E4/ 5 routes from the seventies, headpointing was definitely frowned upon (and rightly so, I think). For some reason many folk seem to think that now the rules have changed and twenty-year-old routes are fair game for poor tactics. Why is this?

[Sloper]

I'm with JB on this one (in spades) if a route has been onsighted (esp. when it's relatively safe) then go for it onsight.  Anything else is selling yourslef short.

Harsh, but true.

Why would you want to do KK as a 'headpoint'?  To say you've done it (which wouldn't be true) or to claim an E7 (which wouldn't be true).

JB you ask why there is this degradation of ethics, my answer is simpy this; climbing walls.

[Falling Down]

>I'm with JB on this one (in spades)

Me too...

I think Daves comment on the Moffat vs. Dawes Top Trumps thread about Bachars ethic could do with airing a bit more widely.

If there ain't bolts in it, then ground-up is the way.

[Paul B]

I'm with JB on this one (in spades) if a route has been onsighted (esp. when it's relatively safe) then go for it onsight.  Anything else is selling yourslef short.

Harsh, but true.

Why would you want to do KK as a 'headpoint'?  To say you've done it (which wouldn't be true) or to claim an E7 (which wouldn't be true).

JB you ask why there is this degradation of ethics, my answer is simpy this; climbing walls.

or maybe they like the look of the route?  ???

JB you ask why there is this degradation of ethics, my answer is simpy this; climbing walls.

bit of a sweeping statement don't you think? maybe you can put it down to a lack of education etc. i'm sure its down to more sources than just indoor walls, university/company climbing clubs etc where teaching on ethics isn't top of the priority list?

[Idol eyes]

Short cuts to success I guess, I was a chronic Top Roper, down to the company I was keeping and also down to investigating possibility's on virgin rock. The inspection of routes and pre practice (never liked the term "head point")
of routes could interfere with someones desire to flash it, When I (nearly) did The Salmon on sight, there had been a group top roping it for 3 hours, not only could they "not touch it!" but they snapped the primary pebble on the crux, I blamed them for my failure, no honest, fresh of of flying up Ontos, I was ready for it! only to watch a bunch of chancers failing for ages... then went for the on sight an blew it... I could of failed any way, I will never know, but it did gear my head from positive to negative...
Saying that,I would never have reached the personal level that I set myself in climbing, without trying routes beyond my caperebilitys at the time...on top rope!

[andy popp]

This is interesting (loving Idol Eyes last post) and would like to make an intelligent response but have just had v. strong G&T. Might try again tomorrow. Perversely, I 'headpointed' KK but OS'ed Salmon?

[Idol eyes]

Wish I could ave a GnT

[Paul B]

Sport climbing is convenience climbing, ethics go out the window when the drill goes in. People climbing on grit should be looking to climb in the best style possible. As Idol eyes says, some of these routes are fragile and won't survive poor climbers flailing on them in topropes - look at Beau Geste. Headpointing, if it has a place, should be limited to new routes. Once a route is established the challenge is to improve on the style of ascent.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a lot (most?) of the top end repeats of routes have been in the same style as the first ascentionist, are you suggesting that these routes should sit unrepeated until people can improve on the style they were first climbed? If so standards are going to have to take a massive leap each time a new grade is established as a lot are serious undertakings, especially ground up/onsight. I'm not disagreeing with you here, just flagging something up to get your opinion.

[Sloper]

Not wanting to answer for BJ/JB or indeed anyone else . .. . ...

But.

I'm not saying the route should remain unrepeated until someones prepared to improve on th eethical stndards of the FA rather that once the standard has been improved upon and settled as the onsight ground up holier than you are you looking at my pint, this is when the old approach becomes unacceptable.

[andy popp]

Fuck, I find myself agreeing with Sloper. Half way through next GnT.

[Johnny Brown]

there had been a group top roping it for 3 hours, not only could they "not touch it!" but they snapped the primary pebble on the crux,

Exactly the problem! The likes of Idol eyes investigating concepts for the future isn't such an issue to me. As for why standards slip, I think walls are partly to blame in that they give folk a false notion that climbing should be convenient whilst not really putting across the fact that the real rewards in climbing are often the hardest won. However the mags and films that put across grit headpointing as the big new thing are equally at fault - everyone wants to have the hard grit experience and headpointing a soft E7 is usually the approach.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a lot (most?) of the top end repeats of routes have been in the same style as the first ascentionist, are you suggesting that these routes should sit unrepeated until people can improve on the style they were first climbed?

Well often the first ascensionist has set the bar high - as mentioned on the Johnny/ Jerry thread a few of Dawes' routes await an ascent in better style than his. The improvements may be small at first - less time practising - but usually by the fifth ascent or so there's a serious upgrade in style. By the time the masses get to it (15-20 year gap often the case here) true onsights are generally the norm.

[Idol eyes]

There are Auras around routes that are really precious to some,,, and before the first ascents of them, we marvel at the possibility's, then they get done, slowly they are submitted in to trade routes, the most classic example of this is Brad Pitt. My point is, watching someone working a route beyond their ability's is annoying and embarrassing, but ultimately its the routes and the areas that suffer, I am not defending bravar do! I am making people aware of their impact of the environment...

[Paul B]

it was an open question. Your logic (sloper) seems very sensible.

So... E7: onsight
       E8: Ground up (or onsight by Birkett at black crag?)
       E9: Inspection on abseil only

Are these the minimum standards to aspire to? Are we going to see no more DM headpoint repeats...

[nash1]

Most folk will always strive to climb the next grade on their list. Now KK might not be the living end for E7, but it is a truely famous E7, even on THE vid. Now only a very select few (1 or 2?) E8's have been onsighted, you can't expect Joe Bloggs the E5 leader to try and onsight E7. But he could well headpoint it, as did Dawes in his time. Most people are not and never will be as good as JD was then, surely they should be allowed to sling a wee rope down it?
I bet no one has onsighted or flashed their first E7 ever (go on, prove me wrong!), what would you they did for their 1st E7?

[richieb]

I tend to agree on this one, in relation in KK inparticular. This route must have been onsighted or at least ground-upped many times now, and not just by the very best.
I'd certainly get more personally out of trying to onsight some of the similar E5's and 6's around, working towards trying to do the same on KK.
But I think its maybe abit harsh to expect everyone to try and onsight or ground up every hard route as soon as one of the very best climbers has done this.
Infact, I think its very difficult for people who maybe have not been around the grit scene for a long time to get the feel about what has become the accepted style for certain routes.
Same applies with pads on routes, but I guess thats another issue.
For example, Its probably fair enough to headpoint some scrittly E6 up on the moors which hasnt had many ascents, or at least more fair enough than headpointing KK. 
 
Kinda what Idol Eyes just said basically...

[Paul B]

I bet no one has onsighted or flashed their first E7 ever (go on, prove me wrong

My bet is someone will prove you wrong on that one!

[Idol eyes]

3-9, get your self a good mate (AKA decent belayer), get your self up to Cratcliffe, stick some wires in Genocide
E6 6C, get on with that... If you is feeling Irie, stride over the hill and do what you feel is right, good luck, be safe, and for fuck sake enjoy it!!! Peace and Love.