[Idol eyes]

I bet no one has on sighted or flashed their first E7 ever (go on, prove me wrong

My bet is someone will prove you wrong on that one!

Aussie Chris Jones's first grit E7 was KK ground up. (He climbed harder on foreign trad though)

[nik at work]

I'm sure I can name at least one climber who onsighted his first E7, I won't as he is of a shy retiring disposition, but I could. Well maybe it was actually ground up or something but not top-roped, which is the point.
I'm surprised no-one has jumped all over idol eyes claim of a potential failed on-sight after having watch other try the route, surely a failed flash at best or is that only on rocktalk...

As for my opinion on headpointing etc. Well I did it so can't really pour scorn on others for doing likewise. And whilst I appreciate slopers/JB's point of view with regards to once a route has been flashed/on-sighted etc subsequent ascents should not be a backward step in style I find myself coming up against the same stumbling block. I have been that backward headpointing step on several routes in the past. Perhaps the approach should be more of a personal resistance to taking backward steps in style? Obviously unworkable but hey ho. But then who definitively knows which routes have had what style of ascents? I think the problem is not headpointing, but the acceptability of headpointing as the norm. Rather than blaming climbing walls I would have thought Hard Grit could shoulder the blame to some extent.

As for Kaluza Klein if you have a good belayer you will land gently on the ground on rope stretch.......probably.

[abarro81]

right then... since this is on my 'to try to flash/GU this winter' list and i dont care about the onsight  - hit me up with maximal beta!
6ft2, 0 ape index... not seen it done (except for the little bit on hard grit), but have heard slightly different reports about the moves from different peeps.

[hongkongstuey]

The only argument I can think of is route traffic, i.e. polishing the holds,

in this case, shouldn't bouldering be banned as classic problems see far more traffic than a route like this ever does... 

Can't remeber the exact beta for the route itself - was many years back when I did it (headpointed of course) - but its basically only one or two moves with a slightly sketchy slap round the arete to get the fluttings. The key holds appear as little white blobs here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=3077 (back in the days when I even had hair...)

[AndiT]

Stu, I seem to remember we made a deal that if I belayed you on KK, then you would belay me for thirty days on another route, you then disappeared to HK. When you gonna make good on your promise

KK is a strange one. Yes I agree on this one being one which should be ground upped as it is distinctly fall offable, but it will always get headpointed as it is seen as an 'introductory' E7. Which is a shame, because it would be a good one to save for the flash/on sight.

There is a place for headpointing/toproping though, as evil as it is, but I suppose that is a thread for a different forum. If someone was willing to go ground up on Mind Bridge, they would certainly be more a fool than a hero. I suppose this is where having friends clean routes for you comes in.

[Jaspersharpe]

Good thread this.

Personally I lean towards letting people do what they want provided they aren't damaging the route or otherwise cocking things up for other people. At the end of the day everyone knows that an onsight is better than a flash is better than a ground up is better than a headpoint so it's only yourself you short change if you headpoint something and realise that you should have saved it to do in better style. As Andi says........

KK is a strange one. Yes I agree on this one being one which should be ground upped as it is distinctly fall offable, but it will always get headpointed as it is seen as an 'introductory' E7. Which is a shame, because it would be a good one to save for the flash/on sight.

Should it really matter to anyone else?

Also.........

The improvements may be small at first - less time practising - but usually by the fifth ascent or so there's a serious upgrade in style. By the time the masses get to it (15-20 year gap often the case here) true onsights are generally the norm.

This seems to be a rather rose tinted view of things. Is it really the case that all the top end headpoints from 15-20 years ago are now normally onsighted? I could be wrong but I really don't think so. Surely some still haven't even been onsighted but get repeated on a regular basis.......by headpointing.

[mark s]

if kk was downgraded to e6 it wouldnt recieve half the traffic.people know its safe.

why not go for the onsight and headpoint a known hard e7.

headpointing does have its place,ive done it.i regret some of it now.but when you see people who obvioulsy have fuck all chance of doing the route it winds me up.
ob fat and piece of mind have been having a thrashing of punters recently but not seen anyone do it.

[andy popp]

I think Jasper has a point. We can probably all agree that good style should be an ideal and aspiration and also that the frontiers should move overtime. For FAs style doesn't tend to improve (everything is headpointed in some fashion) but to compensate grades go up (to E10 currently on grit), for repeats the emphasis is on bettering previous style. And broadly overtime that happens. Established grit E5s should never be headpointed now. But I don't think FAs and repeats have move forwarded together over the last two decades, at least on grit. In the early to mid-80s E6 was being OS'ed at a time when the hardest FAs were E7 - and they were few and far between till about 86; in other words the gap was 1 E point. Today hardest grit OS is E7 (?), has E8 been done, maybe Buoux 8c on the Zone, insiders correct me if I'm wrong, lets call it E7.5. The hardest routes are E10 - the gap has increased to 2 or 2.5 E points. Why is that? There seems to be a significant barrier in shifting from OSing E6 to E7 and perhaps an even bigger one from 7 to 8 - that was my experience, I gave up headpointing because I could very easily do E7s that would have been horrendous to OS. So someone can work their way up through the grades to the point where they can OS E6 - this sort if progression should be the ideal - but very few can take the next step and even fewer the one after. I think this barrier is pretty specific to grit and relates to the tenuous, insecure nature of harder grit - OS standards are clearly higher on other types of rock. Why don't people just stop at their OS limit - because they want to 'progress', are faillible and are willing to make comprises. Isn't that true of just about everyone?

[Idol eyes]

[I'm surprised no one has jumped all over idol eyes claim of a potential failed on-sight after having watch other try the route, surely a failed flash at best or is that only on rocktalk...


Yeah, but all they showed me was how to fail... A Ha! the point I am trying to make. So the first flash of Mushuga will have to be by some one who has not seen the last 10 mins of Hard Grit!!! Videopointing routes, acceptable? I must admit to not being that bothered about the difference between "on sight" "flash" and "ground up", very fine lines that will allways be subject to criticism

[AndiT]

There is always the addage that if a route has been climbed, then it can be climbed on-sight, however, hard trad is always going to be a little bit different. I see it a bit like things like Gymnastics: to do a double back flip off the rings is something people have been doing for twenty odd years, however I'd be surprised if any of those who've done it haven't practiced it in the sponge pit first.

As climbers we need to have headpointers, gound - uppers and dare I say it 'flashers' as this all makes up the rich tapestry of climbs. Without JB having his strong anti-headpoint stance we wouldn't have had amazing ascents like his ground up of Angel's Share, however if JB was a headpointer, maybe the Peak would have a couple more E9's to it's name. I do think there is a hazy limit to what will/should be on-sighted, climbing is supposed to be fun after all.

Have to whole heartedly agree with Mark as well, it's the people top roping for the sake of 'I've done all the moves on an E7' as opposed to those who are inspecting with the genuine intention of the lead that should get frowned upon, just look at Piece of Mind in the UKC logbooks to see what I mean.

[El Mocho]

Established grit E5s should never be headpointed now.

Was recently at Cratcliffe and witnessed ukBs very own Luke Skywalker/strong girl failing to dog the moves on top rope of a 20 year old E5 (John Allen we are not worthy)

(in his defence he will claim he was seconding the route, but as I had been forced to finish up Suicide Wall then we all know it was top rope, and true he hasn't headpointed it yet but just cos it's too hard.)

Without JB having his strong anti-headpoint stance we wouldn't have had amazing ascents like his ground up of Angel's Share, however if JB was a headpointer, maybe the Peak would have a couple more E9's to it's name.

More E9s maybe but still no Allen E5 repeats, the top ropeing cheat.

[Idol eyes]

The Childs House?

[hongkongstuey]

Stu, I seem to remember we made a deal that if I belayed you on KK, then you would belay me for thirty days on another route, you then disappeared to HK. When you gonna make good on your promise

i did indeed agree to belay you for a months worth of attempts on Rays Roof - I assume you've been saving it for my return to Blighty?, which I strongly doubt will ever happen I'm afraid - currently considering a potential shift to Vancouver as Andy R promises me I'll see mega bucks over there - just need to convince Mrs HKS...

[Ged]

Obviously in an ideal world all the hard routes would be getting properly onsighted, but they don't.

 My view from a non-peak point of view:  Northumberland has got stacks of amazing routes, but hardly anything is known about them.  We have spent a lot of time at Great Wanney this year repeating routes from e4 to e7 that have probably (and in some cases certainly) not been repeated before.  This culminated in me and Dave B doing Crisis Zone (3rd and 4th ascents).  This hadn't been done since 1990, and I'll be buggered if was going to go up and find out the hard way what that peg is like!   However, now we've learned a bit about it, I'd defintiely encourage the right folk to go for the flash.  Maybe this is more true in the County, but i think a lot of routes need attention from someone prepared to sacrifce the onsight to make them doable for the rest, obviously apart from a few very talented folk.

Or maybe i've only headpointed one route and know f all about it.

Incidentally, Crisis Zone is better than any E7 on grit!

[Teaboy]

The easiest way to stop repeated top ropes of KK is to give it E6, likewise Life Assurace should get E5

[Pantontino]

ethics go out the window when the drill goes in.

Nonsense - in sport climbing the ethics are crystal clear. There are far more opportunities for dodgy tactics on trad routes (especially if you get beyond the narrow confines of these little grit routes that you obsess over.  )

[abarro81]

blah.. headpointing bad.. blah.. onsight good.. blah...
where's my frickin beta boyos!

[andy popp]

blah.. headpointing bad.. blah.. onsight good.. blah...
where's my frickin beta boyos!

At 6' 2 you'll be fine. Put your right foot on the hold, pull on the arete with you right arm, find some balance, go again.

[nik at work]

Yeah, but all they showed me was how to fail... A Ha! the point I am trying to make. So the first flash of Mushuga will have to be by some one who has not seen the last 10 mins of Hard Grit!!! Videopointing routes, acceptable? I must admit to not being that bothered about the difference between "on sight" "flash" and "ground up", very fine lines that will allways be subject to criticism

If it wasn't clear from my posting I was making the flash/onsight comment as tongue in cheek. The fine lines are important at times I suppose (thinking of relatively recent heated debates) but generally I subscribe to the notion that you as an individual know what you've done and the label you choose is to an extent arbritary.

On a seperate point the notion that routes below E-whatever shouldn't be headpointed has been mooted. Whilst I can understand the reasoning behind that idea it tends to sit somewhat uncomfortably in my mind. For reasons which I don't feel able to adequately explain it seems 'unfair' for want of a better word. I am obviously skirting around using the term elitist because I don't think thats the right term either. Anyway feel free to carry on having a sensible debate whilst I incoherently ramble on....

[Johnny Brown]

where's my frickin beta boyos!

Bad news - Andy's beta is sound but at 6'2" kaluza is definitely only E6! Sorry, but many tall folk I've done it say its simply not E7 if you can reach the fluting without lifting your heels on the seam - it is a totally height dependent move. Definitely one for the onsight then!

Bear in mind Johnny (and anyone else under 5'6" or so) can't reach at all and had to do an extra move/ jump.  As a result Johnny's original proposed guide was E8, which is probably still true for shorties. 5'6" - 5'11" or so, and you can claim E7. Six foot and over is definitely E6 territory. I presume this is why El Mocho found it so hard (well just plain too hard for him up to now, even when girls demonstrate it in front of him).

I bet no one has onsighted or flashed their first E7 ever (go on, prove me wrong!),

I did, and as Nik intimated Ross Cowie did the same. There are plenty of others I'm sure.

On a seperate point the notion that routes below E-whatever shouldn't be headpointed has been mooted.

I wouldn't agree with that - too simplistic. What is sensible is that the age of the route and the style of ascents it has received be considered. If its twenty years old and has had a raft of onsights, several by unknowns, then I think headpointing is pretty poor style. Kaluza falls into this bracket nowadays.

In reply to El Mocho, I took your failure to lead Children's House to be a sign its not E5. My brief glance on second was to ensure this was the case, as you obviously don't climb well on the rock in this area and failure is not always a sure sign of difficulty. I am prepared to bend my ethical stance a little when writing a guide in the interests of furnishing the public with accurate and up to date information.

[AndiT]

[

I bet no one has onsighted or flashed their first E7 ever (go on, prove me wrong!),

I did, and as Nik intimated Ross Cowie did the same. There are plenty of others I'm sure.

What was your first E7 grit on-sight out of interest?

[Johnny Brown]

Ha ha, have a guess!

[abarro81]

so it's a reach to the fluting's with feet still in the break with the cams in? jesus, a grit crux with footholds.. sure its not hvs?
what's jasmine considered to be at the moment (no beta though please since i'm psyched to try that proper onsight)? and if that's down to e6 for us lanky buggers too then what's a good genuine e7 to have my eye on for the onsight/flash?

[AndiT]

Thought so! I remember the pics in OTE.

I think this is the case in point: routes like KK have been safely on-sighted, ground-upped whatever, it is a bit of a step backwards to headpoint them now. I top roped this route Hong Kong Stuey many years ago, I certainly wouldn't now. Much in the same light as JB is waiting for the moves on Peace of Mind to fade from his memory, I will wait for the days when I can attempt a retro flash of KK. To go away from the general 'top roping thread' I think the point that some of us are trying to get across is that you should save this one and go and head point something which needs the treatment, Moov Over, Mindbridge, Montezuma's Revenge???

Abarro, you're feet are on smears above the break....scarey. Jasmine, expect a flurry of replies and maybe even an E4 suggestion.

[Johnny Brown]

so it's a reach to the fluting's with feet still in the break with the cams in?

No, no, you still have to step up into the seam. But then that's the crux, whereas for the rest of us the next move is.

Jasmine was never E7! Baby E6 even for midgets - or E5 with a belayer to ensure you land on the block and not down the gully. And about the least technical grit route I've ever done.

Proper E7s for the onsight, hmm. Balance it is is probably the most obvious, good line, good gear and has already had a couple of onsights. Ditto Paralogism. Beau Geste might fit n'all.
Marrowbone Jelly would fit the super highball category, again lots of ground-up ascents. Ditto Three Blind Mice, though not so many g-up ascents. Unfamiliar somewhere in between - super highball to some gear and ok top. Only one g-up though.