[BD]

according to 8a.nu Stuart Littlefair did his first 8c today with "Make It Funky" at raven tor. I don't know the guy in person but he posts here sometimes so big up Stu and muchos respect

BD

[PATRuL]

Grand effort Stu

I saw the first ascent by Zippy who was all out
Then minutes later the Moon made it look like a path

I quickly followed in my head

Must be training at KK that  sorted you out

Hehe

[north_country_boy]

Great Effort Stu! 

[dave]

not bad for someone who's supposed to be injured! fuck i wish i was that injured.

[SA Chris]

Effort midget.

[Bonjoy]

Good work sir!

[Stu Littlefair]

At last a UKB thread all to my good self. It was my goal all along.

Got very drunk last night. Feel awful, but happy, a state of affairs that will last until Ru gives it 8b+ in the new guide....

[Ru]

After willfully throwing himself off the last move several times, it was a pleasure holding the rope when he finally decided to tick it. Meanwhile my Tor-ment (see what I did there?) continues. Damn this ridiculous weather and the resulting necessary early morning starts

[dobbin]

Superb effort Stu.

Early morning starts are the way to glory as all self respecting grade hunter knows. Good work again.

[PATRuL]

the key for stu i always thought injured or not was the colour of his hair
And he is learning more and more about the Hari Kari way

So Stu this begs the big question

What was the colour of your hair on said day of ascent?

Say hi to your Jewels?

The other big Raven TOr question is when will JOhn 'the Master' Gaskins do his project?
I want to belay him on it 15 st is quite an anchor.

[Stu Littlefair]

If inquiring minds must know - the hair was brown but greying with a minor bald spot where Jules had gone awry with the clippers. Fears that I would lose my almost mystical strength upon cutting my hair proved unfounded, however.

I may go back and repeat the route with my poncho on.

[Paul B]

Good effort 

[Nibile]

an almighty effort!

[Andy Harris]

Congrats Stu, a fine effort and thankfully you didn't get aflicted with lastmoveitis that affilcted other MIF asscentionists. It's still incredibly rare for people to climb 8c in the UK (particulalry those who are breaking new grades) and shows just how hard this is. It's funny on how the routes / boulder divide have changed.

I remember myself and John Welford thinking that "The Bastard" was probably Font 8a and that equated to an 8C route. This is when people were good climbers (say bouldering 7c+ and a few 8a) but only Ben & Jerry were bouldering hard. Now it gets 8a+/b and route 8c+. Now everyone and his dog climbs Font 8a but most of even those who are good route climbers have not managed route 8b+. So now it seems route 8C is more akin to climbing a Font 8a+ or 8b. Not sure if that made sense but I can't be bothered to check. What I'm getting at is that people are stronger (& fitter) but not neccessarily better climbers.

And finally I was also at the Tor the day Zippy topped MIF as the war cry of relief echoed down the valley. A true historical moment. I wonder who PATRUL is as I'd have seen him to. However it was Mark Leach who got the 2nd ascent followed by Ben and 5mins later, Robin B.

[north_country_boy]

I think more than anything it comes down to the individual route....For instance MIF and The Bastard are extremely bouldery and relatively short so would suit a bouldering orientated climber....

There are way more people bouldering these days but how many of those climb F8a? or even climb routes at all?  So how would all these strong boudlerers get on, on True North or Mecca/ M.Extension etc (which if bouldering Font 8a, then they are surely 'overstrong' for)

And on the flip side, there are people (smaller number) climbing F8a+ - F8b+ who don't boulder anywhere near Font 8a!

Maybe at this moment in time (last few years) it is more fashionable/accessible/easy to climb font 8a than F8a?

Maybe if more strong boulderers donned a rope, then more hard routes would be getting ticked!

(Incidently Stu is ticking both! - Bon Effort!)

[Stu Littlefair]

Cheers Andy,

I know what you're driving at concerning route performance versus bouldering performance. I remember being shocked when Ru and I went through the list of folk who have climbed 8c; there was so many of them, all of them old-school. It seemed like there was a golden-era when every man and his dog was ticking 8c (mostly Make It Funky, to be fair), which is something that almost never happens these days.

Then you view this against the background of the rapid and continuing rise in bouldering standards (we now have a situation where the "pack" has arguably reached a standard only just below that of the Ben&Jerry show in the "One Summer" era) and you simply have to conclude that there are loads of climbers around who could be climbing this hard, but simply aren't trying to.

Hardly surprising really. Both the training for routes and the actual ticking of routes requires substantially more hard work than the equivalent in bouldering. Bouldering power can be gained in short sessions of campussing. By contrast, route-endurance requires long, repeated circuit sessions that make you physically sick! Even once you have reached the required fitness/strength there still seems to be so much that can go wrong on a route compared to a boulder problem. On top of that, the window of opportunity to get dry routes in cool conditions is narrow and fickle. I conclude that ticking hard routes in this country is more effort than it is worth. This is probably
why we have a healthy number of boulderers who could consider themselves world-class, whilst ascents of routes so easy that even women and 12yr old boys can climb them is a relatively rare occurrence.

However, as a defence of the route, and route training, I would offer the evidence that power endurance training, and devotion to routes has done more for my bouldering than years of foot-off showboating at Almscliff ever did.

p.s if failing on the last move six times isn't lastmoveitis I don't know what is.

[Bonjoy]

Although there is a degree of cross-over, it takes a lot more effort to be 'good at your grade' on both routes and bouldering, than to be good at just one type of climbing. Given that bouldering is more popular than sport climbing nowadays (and much more , not to mention well catered for training wise), it's not surprising more people boulder hard than climb hard routes.
(written before seeing Stus post, which cover similar ground better)

[Andy F]

Very true Stu. I also think that Bouldering is still very fashionable, but Sport climbing is up there with 80's shoulder pads and Chris Waddle stylee mullets, hence not as many people are doing it. Which is a pity, as an f8a boulderer should be tearing F8a+/8b down with (relative) ease as the moves should feel path like.

BTW, top effort on MIF Stu  

[Huffy]

Guess that psyche came back then hey?

Nice one mate.

[Paz]

As well as the power endurance thing, it's just the other specific type of fitness you need to work moves on bolts/ when you're knackered.  Lots of people dogging look like they don't stand a chance, even on easy 6b moves.  A lot of boulder sends, even flashes, look to me eye like the climber's got the moves wired.  Refining sequences, takes time and lots of goes (if you're me anyway, as if I've done every move OK then a route's on from then on).  To find one little detail, basically can mean you blow a redpoint, where as getting similar info about a boulder prob is quicker as it's near the ground.  Plus it hurts.  Speaks me anyway and I'm crap at both.  Saying that I'd be surprised if more people didn't get back into redpointing again given the hot conditions it looks like we're in for.  Effort Stu.  Did you skip any clips like on Mecca?

[Doylo]

Good work Stu, it must have been an early start in this weather!

Which is a pity, as an f8a boulderer should be tearing F8a+/8b down with (relative) ease as the moves should feel path like.

Yeah they should be but its amzing how hard a relatively 'easy' move can feel when you've got a rope on. Thats what i find anyway. To do hard routes you need to be strong and fit at the same time. And thats the problem i'm having at the moment, getting one without losing the other!

[Nibile]

"ok you do it on routes, but youre not doing the hardest moves you can do, cos youre doing moves 20, 30, 40, one hundred foot up, so youve already done something to get there, so youre already tired. bouldering is all about your absolute maximum level."

 

[Ru]

Which is a pity, as an f8a boulderer should be tearing F8a+/8b down with (relative) ease as the moves should feel path like.

The thing people never take into account is the difference in style between routes and bouldering. Bouldering is a lot more bouncy, and flicky as it's a worthwhile trade-off to make moves easier but lower percentage. When redpointing you want the opposite - you want moves to be high percentage as you get less goes in a day to try them. This means that although the moves may be in themselves easier, you artificially make them harder to make them more static, to a degree. The old thing about there being 8b+ climbers in this country that haven't done font 7c+/8a is true, but the thing that's often missed is that they're old school route climbers that had already done 20 years of climbing by the time the bouldering mat was invented. It's no wonder they didn't develop the right style to climb hard boulders. Even by today's standards they were strong. I reckon if a young Keith Sharples/Simon Reed walked onto the scene today, with our training facilities etc, they'd have climbed font 8a easily. So back to the font 8a climbers tearing down route 8a+/8b with ease - take Magnetic Fields 8a+/8b - the crux is about font 7b+/7c, and it's about font 7a+ to get there (ive done 'font 8a' problems that are easier than that already, no names ), then after that about route 7b to the top. Ish. This isn't beyond a font 8a boulderer, provided they get fit, but they're not going to crush it.

P.S. I can think of one peak 8b that's probably got a font 8a crux on it, and it's not easy after that. It's probably not 8b, but anyway.

[Paz]

Wise words Ru.  Low percentage redpoints are a pain in the arse if the low percentage move is the last one on a long route.  Having lots of goes at it equates to lapping grade minus one or two so it's good training though, as long as you don't get addicted to failing or get head probs.

[Stu Littlefair]

Just been on the blower with Andy Harris (who I should thank for calling the lime so early), and he raised an interesting point. Perhaps the popularity of bouldering means that people were just better climbers back in the 90's. Thinking about it - you can have tons of goes on a boulder problem, so to a certain extent you can get away with being a clumsy climber who makes a shit-load of mistakes, and count on having that one, perfect, go to get you up. In other words, with bouldering there is no penalty to being the kind of climber who misses the odd slap or foot placement.

With routes having so many more moves, it offers that much more potential to make a mistake. So the sport climbers of the late-80s/early-90s had to be good, rather than strong. It also explains why people like myself and Ru can spend so long on routes that we are, on paper, over-strong for: we compensate for our poor form by needing to use that extra strength to improve the percentages on each move. By contrast, Rich Heap had only climbed font 7c+ when he did MIF, but got through on fitness and technique.

It will be interesting to see if the first punter ascent of an 8c opens the floodgates; in principle these font-8b beasts should eat routes like MIF for breakfast, but do we underestimate the skills required to do them in a reasonable amount of time?

edit: ru just said the same thing but in fewer words. It's like we are two people sharing the same brain. Scary.