[Krank]

i have just got my moon board and have read a few articles saying that you should only be hanging for around 6-8 secs on each hang. is this the norm or do people hang for longer times or to failure. thought i would find out bfore i destroy my tendons. cheers

[monkey boy]

When doing one armed hangs (assisted of course) i do it for between 6-8 seconds. I dont really do double armed hangs anymore only to warm up but i used to do them for 10seconds. this is probably a bit long as it starts to go into endurance rather than just strength but i think a mix of times is good.

For assurance though most people i no do hang for between 6-8 seconds!
Enjoy the hanging!!

[Houdini]

What the fuck is a durtion?

[Monolith]

Not sure that climbingjohn is familiar with forum grammar etiquette just yet. 

[Johnny Brown]

Westie and The Higg used to lock off until they blacked out. That's how you get strong.

[Houdini]

It all fits in nicely: one time I witnessed Higg smashing his forarm against a climbing wall with a "Work!  Fucking work will ya!".

Deadhangs?  Rarely.  Generally try and move on holds rather than locking forever, momentum good.  It sure is piss boring too.   

[Krank]

yeah ok sorry duration

[Krank]

oh yeah and thanks for the hanging advice, dont think im up for blackin out but cheers

[BenF]

Not sure that climbingjohn is familiar with forum grammar etiquette just yet. 

Tut tut Tom.  Surely you mean forum spelling etiquette?   

Maybe we need some kind of guidance notes for these problems.   

[Monolith]

Good grammar begins with capital letters B-boy  But yes, spelling is what I meant home boy.

[BenF]

 

I wish I had the will to out-pedant you Tom.  But I don't today I'm afraid. 

[dave]

there was a thread on here years ago where steve dunning said he got biggest gains from doing 30second hangs! which seems contrary to most schools of thought, but he might have something there. i guess most people don't try them this long because fingerboards have a rep for giving your injuries if hanging for long periods, but i recon that's probably a throwback from the '80s where it seems people used to hang with arms locked out straight for as long as possible which gives you bad 'bows.

[richdraws]

I have been trying to reduce the amount of assistance needed to one arm dead hang a small campus rung edge. I started with straight arms (almost straight for those of you worried about my elbows and shoulders) and 2 fingers assistance from the other arm, then a mono assistance etc...

now I have reduced the assistance to a pinch on the roof. However to use it I have to lock off at 90 degrees. (I have no problems maintaining the lock off whilst I hang.)

Does anyone have any experience or science as to whether locking off whilst training max finger strength is a good or a bad?

Does this even make sense?

[Nibile]

my advice:

training exclusively for bouldering, i just go for max strength, so the likes of 4-6 seconds hangs on the smaller holds i can. i wouldnt suggest using bigger holds with wheights. obviously not crimped, i always use my fingers semi-crimped.
and i never just hang from the fingers, i try to pull the hold, that avoids the hyperextension of the elbow, that is as dangerous as the full lock off. and ive also discovered that it helps you holding, prolly cos the pull activates a stronger muscular chain.

and to help me on the holds i cant hang i use a small cable attached to a wheight belt, that goes into a pulley and has wheights on the opposite side that actually push me up. its very good to train with and to check you progress.

ciao.

[Ste]

Now then,
I would suggest 5 reps of 25-30 sec hangs using both hands with weight (if needed.) The principles of strength training with regards static (isometric) contractions is very different from that of concentric and eccentric contractions. The duration of a static contraction in order to achieve the required overload for an increase in strength is in the region of  25-30sec, according to the majority of reliable research. The reason I tend to use two handed hangs is that the grip position is more specific ‘front on.’ Also. I tend to train all three grip positions in a session. You need to increase the volume (reps) from 2-5 as you improve. Only when you can complete the hangs for five reps would I increase the load. The rest period between hangs that I use is 3min, with 10min between changing grip position.

Steve D.

[fatdoc]

i dont dare disagree with the science of this - but God..... how long does a session take you!

I'm keen to use the focused methodology to train - but i reckon dead hangs of that magnitude and duration would take the best part of an afternoon... i'd die of boredom. probably why i'm so weak i suppose!

[BD]

and i never just hang from the fingers, i try to pull the hold, that avoids the hyperextension of the elbow, that is as dangerous as the full lock off. and ive also discovered that it helps you holding, prolly cos the pull activates a stronger muscular chain.

i guess most people don't try them this long because fingerboards have a rep for giving your injuries if hanging for long periods, but i recon that's probably a throwback from the '80s where it seems people used to hang with arms locked out straight for as long as possible which gives you bad 'bows.

damn, so if i'm right it's bad to either hang fully locked or totally straight? i've always been doing it with straight arms because i thought pull-ups (and especially reversed ones) were bad . from now on it all slightly bend (170° angle) or pull-ups than.

BD

[richdraws]

I have no science to back me up either, just what I can remember from different sources. Surely the sports specific argument would suggest that hanging on for 30 seconds would only get you strong at hanging on for 30 seconds. The load would have to be much lower than what you could hold for 4-8 seconds. So how would you develop the limit strength required to deadhang an edge (for say the few seconds or so before you get your feet back on after a hard dynamic move). Dave MacLeod, Rich Simpson etc all suggest times of between 4 and 12 secs ish (I am not quoting here).

Limit strength is seldom held for more than a few seconds, front levers are excellent but you wouldnt be holding them for 30 seconds? If you could surely you should be doing John Gills one arm lever?

[205Chris]

Anyone got any thoughts on the fingerboard routine on 8a.nu?

http://www.8a.nu/eng/articles/hangboarding.shtml

[Nibile]

the 10, 15 or 20 mins routines are very useful (they have been for me at least) to prepare for routes. you can recreate bits of your project and get used to it.
they are also nice if youre bored by dead hanging.

[dave]

I have no science to back me up either, just what I can remember from different sources. Surely the sports specific argument would suggest that hanging on for 30 seconds would only get you strong at hanging on for 30 seconds.

I doubt its as simple as that! these things rarely are - the human body is a complicated mutha.

[BD]

Anyone got any thoughts on the fingerboard routine on 8a.nu?

http://www.8a.nu/eng/articles/hangboarding.shtml

i liked it because i find it hard to write a routine down myself. i did make some small personal adjustments thought because they didn't use many different holds (no real difference between bi- and tridoigt, half crimp or open handed) and i think the times they use are too long. it depends on how you interpret it of course but 25 seconds on the smallest holds is a bit too long don't you think?

BD

[John Cooke]

Now then,
I would suggest 5 reps of 25-30 sec hangs using both hands with weight (if needed.) The principles of strength training with regards static (isometric) contractions is very different from that of concentric and eccentric contractions. The duration of a static contraction in order to achieve the required overload for an increase in strength is in the region of  25-30sec, according to the majority of reliable research. The reason I tend to use two handed hangs is that the grip position is more specific ‘front on.’ Also. I tend to train all three grip positions in a session. You need to increase the volume (reps) from 2-5 as you improve. Only when you can complete the hangs for five reps would I increase the load. The rest period between hangs that I use is 3min, with 10min between changing grip position.

Steve D.

How many sessions do you do a week Ste?

John.

[Ste]

Depends on what 'cycle' im on.

At the moment I train six days a week, on two of those days I have two sessions in a day. I tend to train the smaller muscle groups (fingers) after the big groups. Usually when training strength I would have 2-5 sessions of hangs in a week, following a morning session of training arms/core work. I tend to complete hangs on six week cycles. I dont increase the intensity of the exercises until I have completed a six weeks cycle. On week 1 I would only have 1 session of hangs and build in a session every week until week five. You need to increase the volume before you increase the intensity. After the cycle you either increase the intensity and start again or you maintain your gains by having one session per week.

Steve D.

[richdraws]

Right, I reckon the only way for me to see if it works is to bloody well get off my arse and try it. I have tried the shorter duration hangs and have seen reasonable results so am gonna try the longer sets now.

Should I aim for the 6 days?

Or is a lesser number of days a better idea for a bog standard v7 ish boulderer?

Thanks

Rich

[saltbeef]

depends what you're used to. i train a fair bit, but reckon if i started to train 6days a week then i'd blow apart. i tend to train 2days on 1 off, 1 on 1 off, with the odd 2-3day break enforced by work/rain. if you have only just started using a fingerboard then i'd go with what paul says. maybe add it witha weight session once a week, but remember, what you're training for... climbing, so use the training as an addition rather than instead of climbing.

[richdraws]

Has anyone the foggiest idea what leg-end John Gaskins does training wise?

[Paul B]

Now then,
I would suggest 5 reps of 25-30 sec hangs using both hands with weight (if needed.)

Those hangs seem to be awfully long, everything I seem to remember reading (apart from 8a.nu) advocates more in the region of 8-12 secs, im sure one of the spanish training books had some research to back this up and some graphs to illustrate it.
I understand the use of both hands to aid in keeping front on but even minimal assistance from a pulley set up will do this as well?

[unclesomebody]

Surely V7 climbers just want to be climbing rather than training? I think undertaking a 6 day a week deadhang structure is somewhat intense. I do speak from experience... i moved to sheffield and looking back I think I was overtraining. I'm way stronger and better now but climbing less... recovery is key. An easy way to analyse if you need to be doing 6 days of deadhangs is to go to your local wall and watch other people who are climbing similar/slightly harder problems than you. Are those people doing 6 days of deadhangs? Or are they using their feet better? Using their body better? Holding holds slightly differently. I think V7 climbers are just beginning to move in to the world of doing slightly more difficult moves, but it's often not strength that is the limiting factor. It's possible you'd learn a whole heap and be inspired from undertaking something like a masterclass... all depends who you climb with. Personally, every time I go climbing with my peers it's like a masterclass. I learn so much.

[richdraws]

Awww I like training 

[unclesomebody]

More than climbing?!?  ???

[richdraws]

It's possible you'd learn a whole heap and be inspired from undertaking something like a masterclass... all depends who you climb with. Personally, every time I go climbing with my peers it's like a masterclass. I learn so much.

stand by for unscrupulous product endorsement...

I had a masterclass with Dave MacLeod and Niall McNair last October/November. It was amazing (I have had masterclasses by other top climbers that were not as good). The quality of instruction and level to which it was aimed (mid grades) was top notch. Seeing Dave climb was an eye opener, despite his one armer on a campus rung ability, he used momentum rather than strength on every move. However he did advocate training for the climbers present who were all in that mid grade range. It was the style of training on his site, progressive resistance / assistance reduction.

I know the masterclass idea is not always very popular with some climbers but the MacLeod/McNair one was proper wizard.   

[richdraws]

More than climbing?!?  ???

words, crowbar, mouth.

[monkey boy]

Surely V7 climbers just want to be climbing rather than training? I think undertaking a 6 day a week deadhang structure is somewhat intense. . It's possible you'd learn a whole heap and be inspired from undertaking something like a masterclass... all depends who you climb with. Personally, every time I go climbing with my peers it's like a masterclass. I learn so much.

I agree with this fully, i reckon climbing a good mix of indoors and outdoors with different people is the best way to build strength up when at this level.
Perhaps maybe 1 or 2 light sessions of finger boarding a week just to help those fingers on their way. When climbing indoors i think it really helps to climb with someone whose strengths are not the same as yours. For example: I climb with a crimp fiend who bones (in the climbing sense of course) all holds. My weakness is crimping but i have better arm and body strength than him. You help each other in your weaker areas by doing what the other does.

On another note, i hate revision and role on the cold days that are forcast for the weekend!

[(woz)]

When climbing indoors i think it really helps to climb with someone whose strengths are not the same as yours. For example: I climb with a crimp fiend who bones (in the climbing sense of course) all holds.

I hope you weren't referring to me then? I wouldn't be seen dead crimping. Dirty things. I have been deadhanging for quite a few years now and not really had as much success as I would like with the 1 armed 6, seconds rule. I'll definitely give some longer, 2 armed ones a try.

[unclesomebody]

Surely V7 climbers just want to be climbing rather than training? I think undertaking a 6 day a week deadhang structure is somewhat intense. . It's possible you'd learn a whole heap and be inspired from undertaking something like a masterclass... all depends who you climb with. Personally, every time I go climbing with my peers it's like a masterclass. I learn so much.

I agree with this fully, i reckon climbing a good mix of indoors and outdoors with different people is the best way to build strength up when at this level.
Perhaps maybe 1 or 2 light sessions of finger boarding a week just to help those fingers on their way. When climbing indoors i think it really helps to climb with someone whose strengths are not the same as yours. For example: I climb with a crimp fiend who bones (in the climbing sense of course) all holds. My weakness is crimping but i have better arm and body strength than him. You help each other in your weaker areas by doing what the other does.

On another note, i hate revision and role on the cold days that are forcast for the weekend!

You better keep on revising unless you're revising for your secondary school entrance exams...

[Monolith]

Last summer, when it was basically too hot to get anything done, I took to the gym for a couple of months. When I came back to climbing, some things that I'd struggled with were done with ease. I think a lot of climbers often neglect to train the opposite muscle groups from those predominantly used in the sport. I've completely noticed a demise in the power stakes from not engaging in a frequent weight-training session so am coming back to it. Also, finger rolls with almost as much as you can lift work so well, it's just the problem of getting to a gym that isn't your usual council run affair with shit facilities.

[BenF]

On another note, i hate revision and role on the cold days that are forcast for the weekend!

You better keep on revising unless you're revising for your secondary school entrance exams...

Oooh, cutting. 

Harsh, but funny.

[monkey boy]

I hope you weren't referring to me then? I wouldn't be seen dead crimping. Dirty things. I have been deadhanging for quite a few years now and not really had as much success as I would like with the 1 armed 6, seconds rule. I'll definitely give some longer, 2 armed ones a try.

no i was refering to other dan dont worry!

You better keep on revising unless you're revising for your secondary school entrance exams...

I dont understand!! Should I?! Haha

[andy_e]

On another note, i hate revision and role on the cold days that are forcast for the weekend!

Amen to that brother. Fuck the exams, let's hope this sunny weather we've got today continues until the weekend so Caley may actually be dry...

[unclesomebody]

You better keep on revising unless you're revising for your secondary school entrance exams...

I dont understand!! Should I?! Haha

I'm saying that you grasp the English language at the level of a primary school student. I also know that you are not in primary school, so if you put these two things together you'll realise what I'm saying....   

[andy_e]

On another note, i hate revision and role on the cold days that are forcast for the weekend!

Amen to that brother. Fuck the exams, let's hope this sunny weather we've got today continues until the weekend so Caley may actually be dry...

No sooner do I say that then the heavens open 

[monkey boy]

I'm saying that you grasp the English language at the level of a primary school student. I also know that you are not in primary school, so if you put these two things together you'll realise what I'm saying....   

Ok cool, i guess me asking for an explanation doesnt help my cause either?!

  oh well hopefully i will do better in my exam!

[Nibile]

i think that holding for longer periods, like 30 secs, is possible when one already masters the suspension on the chosen hold, while the great problem (at least for me) in climbing seems to be being able to hold holds that are smaller and smaller as one progresses or wants to.
and to be able to hold smaller holds you have to increase your maximum strength, and that is obtained with short, super intense efforts. once you master the hold you can try to hold it longer or with wheights.

[Nibile]

training logs thread cross-post

yesterday:
long long warm up (more than one hour)
one arm max dead hangs
20 dead hangs for each arm, 6 seconds, on 2 cm flat edge, and on 2,5 cm sloper alternated.

seems to work.
ill tell you monday, cos tomorrow im off to ceriola again!!!

[Nibile]

the dead hang session worked alot, ive been in ceriola and was superpowerful, and superpowerfully failed on everything.
hell yes.

[bouldermonkey]

i have just got my moon board and have read a few articles saying that you should only be hanging for around 6-8 secs on each hang. is this the norm or do people hang for longer times or to failure. thought i would find out bfore i destroy my tendons. cheers

The article i read - cant remember where it was now but it was one of the main well known UK climbing sites, suggested that the best way to build strength in forearms was to dead hang until failure from both arms. (not until it gets painful.. but rather until you do actually fail). It also suggested deadhanging one arm for 6-8 secs, then swap to other arm and repeat.. keep going until failure.

Try doing this at home but the only suitable place i have for a bar is right at the top of my stairs (due to supporting/artificial walls) etc - not really condusive to good health when that failure moment comes.. you aint just fallin off a bar, you're goin down 1:3 terraced house stairs.

 

So i'm in the market for a finger board - seen a few nice ones on www.indoor-rock.co.uk, just wondered if anyone had any recommendations - or warnings.

[Nibile]

keep it simple and dont waste too much money in it, or do it yourself.

[Duma]

DIY - but if you can't be arsed, one of these is the way to go.

[fatdoc]

go moon, it's the best thing he sells.

IMO that is..

[nash1]

Good grief, just started another 3 week program of this routine http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,7622.0.html and my deadhanging has gone thru the roof, whereas before I struggled to do 2 x 8 sec, I did 5 x 10 sec last night, an outrageous improvement.

Questions, will I climb harder?
Should I add weights (prolly will anyway, whatever you say!)
Why do I care so much?

[Ru]

Don't know why I've just spotted this but there you go. Anyway, deadhangs are an isometric exercise, and in theory forearm muscles will respond similarly to isometric training as other muscle groups, for which there is some research out there. 4 or 5 x 30s have been shown to be optimum for hypertrophy, done at 80%+ of max. Less time at higher intensity will probably train recruitment.

[carlisle slapper]

Ok so this has been in the pipeline for a while now as ned and moger will know but i've finally got stuff sorted and a well basic site set up, let me know what you think anyway and if anyone is keen contact me using the info provided or PM me, i only have 6 of the original batch left right now but have some more on order, will put some fairly definitive training stuff up on the site too of how to get proper strong on it when i get back. basically i reckon its the best thing around for creating steely tendons and its uk made, oh and i didn't "borrow" my design off gary without asking permission www.bigredclimbing.com


anyway the site is http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/weaponsoftheweak/

[Greg C]

I can barely read the white text on the wacky background. Perhaps a black background would help...

[(woz)]

I've heard good things about these boards, but like Greg I cant look at the site for more than 10s before throwing up. The pics look good.

[carlisle slapper]

sorry only realised yesterday if you use firefox or an apple it does that, IE works fine will change it to just black as soon as possible

[clgladiator]

would hanging for longer durations improve endurance?

[joswald]

would hanging for longer durations improve endurance?

Yes.