[Johnny Brown]

I'm getting bad pins and needles and numbness in my hands and foreams, mainly at night. The last few nights its really been affecting my sleep, either it keeps me awake or wakes me up with bith forearms dead from the elbows down.

Internet self diagnosis (always a dodgy business I know) suggests Carpal Tunnel Syndrome or similar symptoms bought about by muscle spasms affecting the medial nerve. I've got ongoing problems with back tension so I'm hoping its the latter.

Can anyone drop any knowledge, experience or alternative diagnoses?

[AndiT]

I've had it as a result of my bad back. I had a slipped disc 18 months ago and although I no longer feel pain I occasionally twinge my back and it results in me getting pins and needles, sometimes for ages. I changed the bushes on my suspension six weeks ago and this gave me a dead leg, I still can't feel left shin now!

It does sound similar to CTS but could also be trapped nerves in your back. I've definitely had what you've described before and it eventually stopped after about a week. Go to the docs anyway dude.

Stanage was dry, but too cold.

[Johnny Brown]

Hmmm, cheers Andi, already been going on for a fortnight. I don't notice it much during the day though.-, and at night it goes away if I stretch/ shake it out for a bit.

[Houdini]

Sounds like a similar condition to mine.  Nerve impingement somewhere in the neck C6?

Hope it isn't, the treatment options are few, surgery from what I can glean from the "pro's", can cause more permanent damage than you have already.

[Johnny Brown]

Shit, sounds like bad news.

Had a crash 6 weeks ago which restarted the current cycle of back tension. Hopefully if I can get it loosened up the nerve stuff will go away.

[Houdini]

Does the numbness extend to your little finger? 

(Those with the science - correct me if I'm wrong - but I was under the impression that CTS will always affect the little finger.)

Without full diagnosis (MRI? If you can get one) I'd recommend no deep massage of the neck.  The fact that it's affecting your sleep/(work? Tell your Doc it is) will go some way to helping you get some form of specialist help.

Good luck.

 

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah the numbness usually starts in the little and ring fingers. I'm gripped now, I was just going to get some physio...

[Houdini]

Excuse me.  Facts topsy turvy.  Thus:

Carpal tunnel syndrome occurs when the median nerve, which runs from the forearm into the hand, becomes pressed or squeezed at the wrist. The median nerve controls sensations to the palm side of the thumb and fingers (although not the little finger), as well as impulses to some small muscles in the hand that allow the fingers and thumb to move. The carpal tunnel - a narrow, rigid passageway of ligament and bones at the base of the hand ¾ houses the median nerve and tendons. Sometimes, thickening from irritated tendons or other swelling narrows the tunnel and causes the median nerve to be compressed. The result may be pain, weakness, or numbness in the hand and wrist, radiating up the arm. Although painful sensations may indicate other conditions, carpal tunnel syndrome is the most common and widely known of the entrapment neuropathies in which the body's peripheral nerves are compressed or traumatized.

If it is your neck (BIG IF) then find yourself a (specialist) pillow that supports the neck.  IE: You're neck is supported rather than your head being pushed up at an angle, impinging the nerve further. (They are not so cheap).

[Johnny Brown]

hmm, will pay particular attention to the pinkie tonight. I'm pretty sure its affected.

[Dave Flanagan]

Weirdly I have been getting very bad pins and needles the last few nights though I only remembered when I saw the title of this post. I have been having problems recovering after climbing with sore elbows and aching arms for the two days after a standard session.

[Houdini]

Dave:

Playing The Doctor of Fuck All:

Compression of the median nerve at the wrist is only one example of peripheral nerve compression syndromes which plague us. Another common problem is compression of the ulnar nerve at the elbow. This causes numbness in the inner hand, including the small finger. Persistent symptoms can be relieved by incision the tissues of the elbow which entrap the nerve. Several other nerves can be entrapped causing burning numbness in other regions. Obviously numbness has many other causes, so experienced evaluation is always the first step in the direction toward cure.

Cool huh?

JB - I had an impromptu looking over by a CTS specialist not long back.  He attempted to bring forth the tingling in the hand by doing the gay hand stretch:  Y'know, push hand down from the top of the hand at a right angle to the wrist.  The tingling should appear after a short while, should you have CTS.

Vis-a-vis your crash - did you have any whiplash?


 

[Johnny Brown]

yeah tried the gay hand stretch, I get some tingling.

Whiplash - yeah I did have a stiff neck for the next fortnight. What seemed to happen though is it triggered all the back tension off again.

[Houdini]

Seriously dude, the internet is no place to play this game.

My advice.  No physio (from a physiotherapist/sports masseur etc..).  Visit a reputable Osteo.  Take what you know from the osteo to your GP.  Play it from there.



EDIT:  Needless to say, cut the training out.

[Jim]

Along the same lines, I banged my elbow at work last night quiet hard. This caused my little finger to curl up like a spastic sort of claw hand and I had really painfull burning pins and needles for 5 mins. It still hurts a bit now with sporadic pins and needles (not burning now tho)
I'll give it a couple of days and see if it eases off if not looks like a trip to the quack's

[Bonjoy]

 I used to get numb ring and little finger in bed every night, until I figured out it was caused by my sleep posture trapping my ulnar nerve as it passes through the elbow (cubital tunnel). Basically it was caused by me sleeping with elbows bent tight, like a squirrel eating a nut. It took me a while but I learned to sleep with a more relaxed posture, like a farmer strewing seed in the field if you will. The problem soon went away.

[Duma]

...like a squirrel eating a nut. ...like a farmer strewing seed in the field if you will.

genius

[Johnny Brown]

What a way with words. Yes, I've been trying to sleep more like the farmer, but it doesn't seem to help.

[fatdoc]

Bonjoy has explained perfectly the commonest cause and treatment of 2 smallest fingers tingling / numb in bed. i too suffer from this...

BUT  - *waiver of not being medical advice but simply opinion in order to inform and gain definitive care bit* (God I love the UK and the medicolegal culture I live in)

if you have forearm numbness too (and any way to be sure) as Houndini says; osteo then to GP... why?? may well need scans of your neck - dont forget there was trauma invloved here -   nerve conduction studies and or specialist opinions may also be needed.


Go on.... off to the GP....

[SA Chris]

I woke up last night with numb / tingly little / ring fingers. Had quite an intense session down wall last night followed by yoga.

I normally sleep in "squirrel / nut" position, might try changing it.

[webbo]

I used to get numb ring and little finger in bed every night, until I figured out it was caused by my sleep posture trapping my ulnar nerve as it passes through the elbow (cubital tunnel). Basically it was caused by me sleeping with elbows bent tight, like a squirrel eating a nut. It took me a while but I learned to sleep with a more relaxed posture, like a farmer strewing seed in the field if you will. The problem soon went away.

so if i've got this right you sleep like you are driving your 50 ton conbine harvester.

[Somebody's Fool]

If you want them looking as good as this Jim, I'm afraid a short spell of painful burning is always going to be necessary.

[Bonjoy]

I used to get numb ring and little finger in bed every night, until I figured out it was caused by my sleep posture trapping my ulnar nerve as it passes through the elbow (cubital tunnel). Basically it was caused by me sleeping with elbows bent tight, like a squirrel eating a nut. It took me a while but I learned to sleep with a more relaxed posture, like a farmer strewing seed in the field if you will. The problem soon went away.

so if i've got this right you sleep like you are driving your 50 ton conbine harvester.

Think of it more as Montey Don strewing grain in the goose coop.

[Jim]

Can I give a whole thread some wad points?
This is genius

[webbo]

excuse me for being thicker the usual.are you sleeping on your back as you are casting out your seeds{or should that be pearls before swine} or on your side.sleeping on my back which is my preferred postion leads to major marital disharmony as my snoring is capable of waking the dead of other planets.

[Houdini]

Webbo - Got any history/Etymology on the "Pearls before Swine" -thing mentioned earlier.  Where does this triplet come from?  Yes yes a big fat sow, but before that.

Sleeping on your back spazzes the lower back at your hinge.  Or so I've found.

[SA Chris]

Matthew 7:6 (King James Version):

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet.

[Houdini]

So great a name.  Better than Maginot Line.

[saltbeef]

Along the same lines, I banged my elbow at work last night quiet hard. This caused my little finger to curl up like a spastic sort of claw hand and I had really painfull burning pins and needles for 5 mins. It still hurts a bit now with sporadic pins and needles (not burning now tho)
I'll give it a couple of days and see if it eases off if not looks like a trip to the quack's

jim it should be fine.
adam hit the doctors. before thbe weekend. nerves are eashy to fuck, and have a habit of not growing back onc fucked...

[Jim]

cheers beefus, its fine now. only lasted 2 days. was a bit worried at the time tho cos it fuckin hurt.
also thought it would be another addition to the long line of permanent injuries I seem to be carrying around with me

[Plattsy]

Hey JB how did this turn out? Osteo sort it?

Started with the pins n needles at night thing quite a while ago and put it down to sleeping on them. Though I often get them sleeping like a stiff in a casket (hands folded across my stomach). Had the odd bit of whiplash over the years too... car accident, snowboarding etc.

[Johnny Brown]

Bloody hell, I'd forgotten all about this. I can't remember, but I won't have been to a doctor. Possibly a physio...

The main thing was, I stopped sleeping in the Dracula position. Its still natural for me to sleep on my back with my hands crossed over my sternum. If I do it, my arms go dead, though I haven't had it get as bad as pins and needles for a long time. I'm now in the habit of crossing them on my belly. I can't really sleep on my side as my shoulders are too broad - I immediately need a pillow three times as thick - and if I sleep on my front I end up folding one arm up which then goes dead.

A few years of yoga seem to have sorted my back out. It isn't fixed, but it is manageable. I get spells of sciatica, and occasional spasms that can last a few days. I need to get back into the yoga though, not really done any since Zaff emigrated, and I can feel things stiffening up.

Weirdly, I did have a spell of pins and needles/ numbness in my little toes recently. It seems to have gone away, though a quick google did give a brief moment of panic that the diabetes my Mum warned me about had finally caught me...

[Oldmanmatt]

Right, don't laugh...
Used to get this a lot.
And had a chronic bad back/sciatica.
The back was mainly sorted with exercise (strength training as well as stretching).
The other tack, that sort the hand problem (and I'd wake up with two dead arms and be completely stuck, requiring mrs OMM to rescue me..).
We bought the Long pillows (find them in the betterware catalogue), on the recommendation of a physio.
Now I sleep on my side, parallel to the pillow, one arm under, one arm and a leg over (cuddling it, basically (I said don't laugh, no, stop it)).
Never wake up with back or arm problems and sleep much better.
Look like a right knob, but...

[Oldmanmatt]

Oh yeah,
I have the same problem as Johnny, with the shoulders.
So it's two thick pillows under my head.

[rodma]

I had this in the summer and it turned out to be from a combo of tension (muscle that is) and sleeping on my face (so I was using my arms to stop my nose being squished and my neck bending backwards). Osteo sorted me out and told me to by mrs rodma some earplugs so i could sleep on my back.

I do have to stretch my biceps out a lot though to prevent this from recurring.

[Plattsy]

Thanks for update JB and et al. I'm gonna see how sleeping differently affects it.

[hongkongstuey]

have been getting this a bunch myself lately - completely numb fingers in my right hand (everything except little finger basically), mostly when i sleep but intermittently during the day too.

diagnosis from the doc (these are a bit crap in HK by the way) was possible CTS with typical Hong Kong approach to dealing with things - pop these pills and see if the inflammation goes away. he also said something about not doing things like climbing and balancing on my hands in yoga for a while... fat chance of either of those happening

diagnosis from Laurent Jacob (of Buoux fame but now resident in HK and quite handily, a doctor too...) was a probable trapped nerve in my neck, too much tension in the shoulders and something to do with needing to flush my liver and then visit an osteo

[Huffy]

Just in the interests of anyone reading this thread and whos been training harder than normal and suffering from symptoms suggesting nerve entrapment CTS is pretty an unlikely diagnosis and that median nerve entrapment far mor likely to involve pronator teres/Biceps/brachial plexus/1st rib/spine. I know what a load of worry warts we climbers can be (i was pretty bad when training alot) so thought it was worth mentioning.

p.s. i love you saltbeef!

[Plattsy]

Been doing lots of bicep/forearm stretches over the last few days. Also trying improve my posture too. Also starting the day with a couple of sun salutations, which are woeful at best. Tried a few different things whilst sleeping. The double pillow on my side seems better, i think. I've noticed some improvement but I haven't climbed for the last few days either. Out today so tonight's sleep might be interesting.
I've booked to see an osteopath tomorrow. Not sure about it but I'm keen to hear what they say/what they do especially about my neck/upper back/forearm/hand tingle shizzle.
@Huffy Pronator teres syndrome sounds very likely as my forearms and hands get the pins n needles.
Isn't internet self diagnosis brilliant.

[Falling Down]

We bought the Long pillows (find them in the betterware catalogue), on the recommendation of a physio.
Now I sleep on my side, parallel to the pillow, one arm under, one arm and a leg over (cuddling it, basically (I said don't laugh, no, stop it)).

These are great.  They've had them on the boat we've used on our last two surfing trips and I've thought about buying some for home.  If you have two, you can put one behind you to stop you rolling onto your back and snoring.  I always have a really good nights sleep using them.