[Johnny Brown]

you guys seem to do a lot of training. Makes me feel a bit useless

Those who can, climb. Those who can't, train.

[Palomides]

Those who can, climb. Those who can't, train.

Too right.

I'm off to the wall tonight. 

[Paul B]

you guys seem to do a lot of training Makes me feel a bit useless

oooh..im sure a month ago you were training as much as me....or maybe actually secretly coveting the 2nd ascent of basic doyle? 

Those who can, climb. Those who can't, train.

It seems from the last few post ive read you seem to have major issues with anything training/power/school related...say it isnt so? 

[Nigel]

James spends half his life deadhanging, and Adam disdains training because if he did train he wouldn't be able to play the "raw talent" card with its full weight. Plus he can't get in the school despite repeated degrading and borderline pr0nographic pleas to Ben Moon. Allegedly.

[Doylo]

It seems from the last few post ive read you seem to have major issues with anything training/power/school related...say it isnt so? 

Sad as it is Paul you've hit the nail on the head there. Johnny does his training in the Porter Cottage.

[Buoux 8C]

What is the embarrassment in training? It is really something I struggle to understand. Now this is not a personal attack, more of an example, but im pretty sure people like James and Ryan, Ste Mac etc, in their own way train as much as anyone ( like I said, not a personal attack, feel free to correct me). However, the difference is they go on to play a secretive card as if to offer a scapegoat if they fail on something. Why not just be proud of the effort you have put in?

I just cannot understand why people would be ashamed to admit that they train, that they want to do well in something, that they want to succeed in their chosen activity, that they want to push themselves in something as opposed to doing nothing, being mediocre and knocking anyone and everyone that wishes to succeed. It’s a win win situation in my opinion. Could you imagine a society were no one worked hard with fear of being criticised?


It's only climbing where this takes place. Every other sport I have been involved in the participants take pride in the effort they put in and feel no shame whatsoever if their efforts do not pay off. Rather they learn why they did not obtain their personal goals, and make changes to prevent failure in the future- which in my opinion is a fundamental aspect to progression.

I blame it on insecurities and lack of self-discipline and motivation myself, accompanied with an activity that has a very peculiar society. I.e., when I climbed a lot, I had this reputation of working hideously hard, although, in reality I did nothing more than someone who wasn’t idle- compared with other sportsmen (footballers excluded) I was damn slack. However, rather than accepting that maybe I was more talented than most, the consensus was that I only did what I did because I trained, and my successes were obtainable for anyone who was willing to put in a few hours climbing. Making my achievements more of a commodity, that not many wanted.

As for Adam Long- pay no attention to his constant criticising of people who climb inside/ train. His naivety is his own worst enemy- maybe if he had a wider view of the world he would actually achieve the things he wants to do. Each to their own I suppose.

[squeek]

Those who can, climb. Those who can't, train.

And those that can and train, can can 

[Houdini]

What is the embarrassment in training? I just cannot understand why people would be ashamed to admit that they train.

Take your word that you've met these kind of people - I've never met anyone that is coy on the subject.  But I get your drift. 

It reminds me of people that would rather be shit at cryptic crosswords (Oh I just don't understand...  It's way above my head. etc..)  than pick up a dictionary and thesaurus and work out exactly why you are shit and yes, just why it's above your head.

I see no shame in learning to be better at something and I've never seen a faultless climber, trainer or no.

[(woz)]

Amen to that Buoux. I've lost count of the number of climbers I've met who attempt to devalue other peoples achievements on the grounds that "Anyone who trains that much could do that"/"I can do that and I don't even train" etc etc.
What they fail to see is that it IS easy to do something well if you have the ability - It is getting the ability (whether through having the commitment or drive to train) or by climbing outside every waking hour that is the hard part.

I often don't like to admit how much I train to other climbers, but not because I'm embarrassed or ashamed, but because they might see me as some sort of cheat.

[Bonjoy]

 I've no idea who you're hanging out with, cos I can't think of anyone with that take on things at all. Except perhaps JB who I suspect is partly playing up to his stereotype to get a rise.
 I have met a few good climbers with persecution complexes though.

[Buoux 8C]

I’m not sure exactly what point you are referring to, so correct me if i'm of the mark here. I have met a great deal of climbers who seem shy/ashamed/coy (delete as applicable) concerning the training they put in. Comments along the lines of; I haven't climbed for months, when in reality they’ve done nothing but; and I don't have the motivation to train like you, although they spend endless hours doing dead hanging, bouldering, campussing, running, climbing in the school etc etc and best of all; i could do that if i could be asked to train a little.

The only way I can perceive this attitude is that of an insecurity (by the way of clinging onto a scapegoat if their plans do not fully work out), or by being to ashamed to mention their efforts in fear of their reputation being blemished.

As for good climbers having persecution complexes- with the amount of cowardly tittle-tattle that goes on in tinsel town, I can fully understand why certain top climbers (who are usually in the firing line of endless defamation) would feel a little persecuted. The fact that I have been on both ends of this mindless behavior leaves me in a position to comment how pathetic certain groups of climbers are, which is a great shame really as climbing is such an enjoyable personal activity.

[Bonjoy]

 My post was in reply to (woz) comment:

I've lost count of the number of climbers I've met who attempt to devalue other peoples achievements on the grounds that "Anyone who trains that much could do that"/"I can do that and I don't even train" etc etc.

Regards people professing not to train, I think a lot of it comes down to outlook and semantics, rather than a desire to appear effortlessly brilliant. Most goodish climbers I know climb on something, be it indoor or out, four or more times a week, some call some or all of this training, some don't. When does climbing become training and vica versa, unless you are doing something specific like campussing or weighted pulls it's often not obvious. Clearly most climbing is training in the sense that it serves to maintain or improve performance, but could you really call JB a secret trainer because he goes to Stanage 12 times a week? To an extent this question could be applied to climbers like James or Steve Mac, who seem to do well mostly by just going climbing a lot. What would Sharma say if you asked him how much he trains? So a climber climbs on average six times a week because he/she loves climbing and wants to improve, he/she has time to climb when they feel like it because they have quit work to climb, he/she climbs in a intuitively structured way i.e they don't climb when they are tired and go indoors when it rains, are they really training? In one sense yes in another no. There is certainly enough room for said climber to say in honesty that they just 'go climbing', don't train as such and improve by default.

As for good climbers having persecution complexes- with the amount of cowardly tittle-tattle that goes on in tinsel town, I can fully understand why certain top climbers (who are usually in the firing line of endless defamation) would feel a little persecuted. The fact that I have been on both ends of this mindless behavior leaves me in a position to comment how pathetic certain groups of climbers are, which is a great shame really as climbing is such an enjoyable personal activity.

I've no idea what they say in Hollywood, but what's it got to do with climbing 

[andy popp]

I do recognise the attitude Rich is talking about - I've probably been guilty myself in the past - and it is quite ingrained in British climbing culture. You only have to look at the contrasting reputations of Johnny as against say Ben amongst the general mass of British climbers to get a glimpse of it. One is regularly still proclaimed as a genius and the other as someone who got very strong. But I don't think this restricted to climbing, its something in wider British sporting (and general) culture - the cult of the gifted amateur is very strong here and failing with style widely admired.

[webbo]

so just going climbing is not training.thats like lance armstrong claiming not to train."no i don't train i just ride my bike".

[Johnny Brown]

Except perhaps JB who I suspect is partly playing up to his stereotype to get a rise.

'I suspect' - surely its f*ckin obvious? I only do it cos its so easy to get a rise - folk seem to take themselves very seriously, particularly those who train a lot. I guess it comes with the territory.

the cult of the gifted amateur is very strong here and failing with style widely admired.

Very true, and I think a lot of the top climbers are aware of this and play down their own training as a result. I think its also true, though, that in the UK the climbing public as a group are less impressed by the kind of climbing that responds most to training, ie top end sport climbing and bouldering. Having said that, when people talk about good climbers they invariably comment on how 'strong' they are as opposed to how 'good'.

For my own part, when I first moved to Sheffield as an impressionable youth I started meeting a lot of good climbers. It was soon obvious to me that the climbers who I really admired - the ones who could really move on rock - were almost without exception those who did very little structured training. The point was further hammered home by meeting plenty of very strong guys who really couldn't move on rock but were generally very focussed on training.

It seemed to me that getting too strong too early is actually a barrier to improving technique, and I've seen very little since to convince me otherwise. I think this works on two levels - firstly you set up a feedback cycle in your engrams whereby you learn that pulling harder is the only way to get up stuff. Secondly an ego thing soon (usually) kicks in also whereby, having scored a few big ticks on basic pulling problems, it is much harder to put time in on the lowly graded technical stuff that eludes you. I've certainly met a lot of Sheffield climbers in Font who work on the maxim - 'if you can't do it, try something harder.'

I actually made a conscious decision not to train at all so that to get better my technique would have to improve. For me at least I feel its been the right way. I've gained plenty of strength over the years just through climbing, with comparatively few injuries. My weak point now is almost certainly finger strength, training might improve it but actually I'm not that bothered any more.

Which brings me on to the other reason - probably the major factor  - why I don't train. A big part of climbing for me is being outdoors, and often in beautiful places. Climbing is foremost for me a way of engaging more strongly with these places than I can through just walking. Over recent years photography has become another way of doing this. As such training isn't going to help me progress. Yes, its true I get more satisfaction from climbing well but this has far more to do with moving well than 'feeling strong' or crushing big grades.
 

His naivety is his own worst enemy- maybe if he had a wider view of the world he would actually achieve the things he wants to do.

I really can't see how you know me well enough to make such pronouncements. I'm not the one giving up climbing here. 

I can fully understand why certain top climbers (who are usually in the firing line of endless defamation) would feel a little persecuted.

This is patent nonsense. I don't know of any top climbers suffering endless defamation. Or do you mean they aren't getting the sponsorship/ support you think they deserve?

[Paul B]

It seemed to me that getting too strong too early is actually a barrier to improving technique, and I've seen very little since to convince me otherwise.

Good observation....I completely agree with this, its something you can't go back on either.

[squeek]

I agree it's a good observation about the kids, but it arises because of several things I think:
They can't drive, getting to crags is generally a pain without one and more so if none of your friends can drive too, so they're reliant on others, generally their parents.
It's easier to go to the wall than the crag and less time consuming, especially for a parent who is going to just sit there and watch.
Weather's bad quite for 6 months of the year, especially if your driver won't set off if it's looking iffy.
A few/Most (?) young climbers will start at the wall now so it's part of their climbing.

These mean that they climb a lot indoors so get strong without getting the technique you get from climbing on rock.  Suppose it depends if you want to be a technical wizard and get up every 7b+ with style, or train like mad and get up a basic pulling 8b.

[webbo]

given that the thread on the new wall in sheffield is up 27 pages.i guess most people would like to train like mad and get up a basic 8b.

[unclesomebody]

given that the thread on the new wall in sheffield is up 27 pages, I guess most people like to talk about training and dream of climbing 8B.

[Doylo]

Except perhaps JB who I suspect is partly playing up to his stereotype to get a rise.

'I suspect' - surely its f*ckin obvious? I only do it cos its so easy to get a rise - folk seem to take themselves very seriously, particularly those who train a lot. I guess it comes with the territory.

Johnny if you only use the internet to wind people up do it on cocktalk. Most folk on here take there climbing seriously and will get pissed off when you say that anyone who trains is automatically a shit climber.  I understand where your coming from on a lot of your points and respect your personal reasons to climb. Why can't you do the same for those at the other end of the spectrum. I quickly realised in my career that i'm never going to be the most technical climber in the world, i just haven't got that natural ability. So from that point i concentrated on steeper climbing which involve more strength than technique (although steep climbing does demand good body positioning etc..) and it is from this type of climbing that i get my satisfaction. Whats wrong with that? I think there's enough room for everyone in our little climbing community and after all it would be boring if we were all into the same thing. 

p.s. i only 'train' once a week at the moment, i just can't be arsed. I prefer to climb on rock.

[Nibile]

i like training. alot.
i like to feel powerful on problems.
i like to try things i dreamt about for years.

i know people who say they dont train but they climb on rock five days a week...so whats that?

i know people here in italy who say "you have to rely on your talent, everybody is capable of doing hard stuff after training". those people are often very talented, and they dont really need to train. i think theyre a bit lazy and envious or pissed that average climbers, with poor talent can do their stuff when trained. and i also think theyre a bit elitist.

DISCLAIMER: that is my impression from people i know here in italy, dunno about others.

and btw...waht else can you do after working all day? sit and watch tv?

[Dr T]

I climb four times a weak if my back problems allow.. is that training?

Oh and I climb on problems in my Woodie or at craggy cause the rock round here is non-existent
I have to wait for the hol's to get weekends on portland or a week or so up peakwards or over in font

so is my four times a week training or climbing?

also I go to the gym when I get time, is that training, or just keeping fit?

the whole training vs not is a bit daft, everyone has their own way of doing things

those blessed with sh#t hot rock on the doorstep climb outdoors a lot fair play lucky them, if you're a 7b climber then doing a circuit of 5's-6b's is training no?

some people campus and do weights, well I campus problems cause there's no board at craggy, some might call it climbing, others wouldn't; I used to do weights sometimes and will again when my back heals ups, that's more to keep fit than to help my climbing but of course it does...

what gets me is why are people arguing over it, seems they have something to prove, either "look how hard I train aren't I great" or "look at me, I don't train, aren't I great"

surely the whole point for the 99.9% of us that aren't sponsored pro's is that we love doing what we do, otherwise we wouldn't do it

If you love to campus and work on a system board then great, if it helps you get up harder "proper" (i.e. outdoor) problems then great; if it's all about the real rock and you don't get anything out of pulling on plastic (or wood, yes I've been reading the whole holds tread within the climbing works tread) then fine, don't do it.

Personally I love to climb, now if that's outdoors, in beautiful surroundings, on classic problems with history then sure that's special, but so's pulling plastic indoors with mates or challenging myself in the woodie.

Once your feet leave the ground and you're traveling (be it upwards or sideways) then you're climbing, simple

[Nibile]

i agree, and also think that rarely you hear people who train alot say to people who dont "why dont you train?!" i cant understand why people who dont want to train complain if you like to.

[Houdini]

...semantics...

Bingo!  Training is a mindset not an activity.

[Johnny Brown]

Johnny if you only use the internet to wind people up do it on cocktalk. Most folk on here take there climbing seriously

My apologies Chris for not taking the internet as seriously as you clearly do. I think the odd jibe is a little different form trolling on CT which is clearly not what I am involved in. I had no idea UKB was for serious climbing chat only , clearly I have been taking Bonjoy's cartoons the wrong way.

 

and will get pissed off when you say that anyone who trains is automatically a shit climber.

When have I ever said this? I have never said this because it is nonsense.

Likewise I've never dissed anyone just for training.
What I do find laughable are people for whom training becomes more important than climbing. Again its the same loop - get strong indoors, perform shit outdoors, get stronger indoors, no improvement outside. I don't see the point in this. Fair enough if you only want to climb indoors, but I don't see it as the same sport. There seem to be a lot of folk in Sheffield who have lost sight of what they are training for.

I also find The School clique pretty funny - there seems to be this attitude that performing well in The School is some kind of international benchmark that is an end in itself. I don't subscribe to this view.

What I find suprising though is how precious folk can be - this is only my opinion, and only worth as much as you to choose to value it. I quite enjoy folk taking the piss out of my approach to the sport, I'm certainly not precious about it, though I suppose I do 'take it seriously' in as much as I devote big chunks of my life to it.