[tobym]

Pretty much ditto for what Panto said - although we only have one junior unit, and I don't have any friends named after cuts of meat.

Same here, I've always liked the idea of being a dad, and my wife has always loved kids, so it wasn't a tough choice, 4 months down the line, I already feel  less footloose and fancy-free, I wouldn't go as far as to say I regret it, and when Ioan looks at me and smiles/laughs, (blinking back the tears ) I feel so pleased he's my son, and already proud of anything he achieves

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

in my opinion i am essentially a leach on them. they pay for me, they bail me out and help me when i get myself in shit.

 Hopefully one day you might appreciate everything they do for you, whilst getting little in return. It's called 'selflessness' and it's when you do something for someone without getting anything in return. You should try it sometime.

 but they chose to and continue to choose to do it

no fingers, it not a choice, it's being a 'parent'

[Rico]

and no Chris, I'm not classed as a child.

Maybe not by law.

[RopeBoy]

Me and the missus decided quite early on that we would have kids once we got married, which made that side of it much easier, we now have a 6 month old son called George.

It definately is a lifestyle change, we moved house before he was even conceived so we would be in the right catchment area for the schools. Mell has given up her job to raise George, so the money is not flowing in as it used and we've not been ski-ing for the last two years which is something I've missed and we don't go out as much as we used to.

Saying all that though we made that decision and we're fine by it, if you go into it not prepared for changes it could be a bit of bummer.

J

[Fingers of a Martyr]

in my opinion i am essentially a leach on them. they pay for me, they bail me out and help me when i get myself in shit.

 Hopefully one day you might appreciate everything they do for you, whilst getting little in return. It's called 'selflessness' and it's when you do something for someone without getting anything in return. You should try it sometime.

 but they chose to and continue to choose to do it

no fingers, it not a choice, it's being a 'parent'

it is a choice. they chose to make me. they could have chose to not have had a child. they had a child because they wanted one. if their was some unbreakable love 'i'll do anything for you' bond between parent and child then kids wouldn't get beat and raped and left for dead on the streets by parents.

don't get me wrong, i do appreciate all the shit they do for me. but i also believe they have a responsibility to do it, since they brought me into this world. and please don't lecture me. parents aren't selfless. they get joy and pleasure and all kinds of 'warm fuzzy feelings' from watching their little brat grow into a big brat.

[webbo]

i think you've got brat mixed up with TWAT.

[Rico]

I used to be a total prick on here

Spot the deliberate error.

[a dense loner]

just when you was doing so well FOAM. don't you know you can't go round slating parents, talking politics or racism on the interweb. it's just not cricket.

[SA Chris]

My current list of things not to bother listening to FOAM's advice about;

Dieting
Training
Music
Parenting
Behaviour while drinking

[webbo]

My current list of things not to bother listening to FOAM's advice about;

Dieting
Training
Music
Parenting
Behaviour while drinking

maybe you could add to that "how to avoid developing a personality disorder"

[Fiend]

Stumps, I understand where you are coming from and how you think about this. I've been thinking the same way throughout most of my life.

I've been saying the same thing, knowing what a burden I have been to my parents (but the burden, though real, is just one aspect), that I don't want to take on that same burden myself, and give up everything I think I value. And as always people say "Well, you might change your mind" and "Never say never", and of course I dismissed that just as you would.

And I haven't changed my mind from not wanting children to wanting children.  What is changing though, is a feeling that I COULD have children, that I could face all that entails, that I could take a different path in life - because at the end of the day, as webbo I think said, it's just life. Where is my life going? Apart from the next climb and the next toy soldier? I don't know, I've never really known. So how can I shut out a particular path in life?

As I say, I understand what you are saying, but yours is an antagonistic perspective in this thread, and it's a bit distracting.

[fatneck]

Good honest chat, that's why I like this forum.

I had kids well early and by the time I'm 40 they'll be old enough to look after themselves and I would like to have time to live the Streaky lifestyle to my hearts content.

In reality, I may have more and still be scratching a living in thirty years time. I don't live with my kids and my current girlfriend is adamant about having kids together and I'm not sure how I feel about yet. Kind of had my heart set on the above scenario  :? (Is that selfish?)

On the plus side I would never ever change having kids in the first place. They have undoubtedly made be a better more rounded individual and they do make me laugh soooo much! There are obvious difficulties but I would never class them as a burden. Unconditional love is not often experienced in other facets of our lives.

Fiend, I admire your honesty and feel great empathy for your situation. We've all been there mate. It sucks...

Take it easy and make sure she knows how you really feel.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

Stumps, I understand where you are coming from and how you think about this. I've been thinking the same way throughout most of my life.

I've been saying the same thing, knowing what a burden I have been to my parents (but the burden, though real, is just one aspect), that I don't want to take on that same burden myself, and give up everything I think I value. And as always people say "Well, you might change your mind" and "Never say never", and of course I dismissed that just as you would.

And I haven't changed my mind from not wanting children to wanting children.  What is changing though, is a feeling that I COULD have children, that I could face all that entails, that I could take a different path in life - because at the end of the day, as webbo I think said, it's just life. Where is my life going? Apart from the next climb and the next toy soldier? I don't know, I've never really known. So how can I shut out a particular path in life?

As I say, I understand what you are saying, but yours is an antagonistic perspective in this thread, and it's a bit distracting.

fair enough man. if you think your bird is worth it then go for it. but there's always the risk you may have a child and end up resenting it and your lass. it's probably a very small risk but it's a possibility. i've seen it happen. it's all very well people banging on about happy families and the wonders of having a kid and shit but it doesn't work that way for everyone. it could turn out that way for you. alternatively it could tear you apart. its like when people who are having a rocky marriage think a kid will sort it out. it's bullshit. you have to be sure you want a child and that you can love it and look after it and be there for it forever. i just don't think having a child is something you can go half hearted into. it's not fair on you, your lass and especially not the kid.

all i'm saying basically is; 'it's just life' - well it doesn't have to be if you don't want it to be.

and fair enough chris webbo rico etc dismiss me as a twat, i couldn't give a shit what you think of me.

[Andy F]

Fiend,
It's simple, do YOU want to have offspring or not? Whether your girlfriend does is irrelevant, because it's your decision. If yes, have them and take what comes. If not well you may be left wondering what may have been, or you make think 'great, time to get back to my training and loads of climbing'.

After all, as soon as you have kids then you can't climb hard again (ask Pantonio...), go for a pint, have another curry, go abroad, see your mates etc etc... Bollocks. Having a kid makes you adjust, but so does everything in like. So you may not get out quite as much as you used to, so you enjoy it more when you do. Kids (just the one, nevermind a flock), are very very expensive, but money isn't everything in life.

Your choice mate...

[Shaun]

Hallo Fiend
I am a women who doesn't climb but my boyfriend does. I, like lots of other women, go through periods where all i can think of is having a baby and then other times when life without one seems nice. The thing I would say about your situation is that your girlfriend sounds a bit mad. Either she is in despair about you and your ability to make a decision or she is unreasonable. I think you should talk to her anyway you can (even show her that you have put this post on line) or write a letter (and it's nearly valentines day so use that as an excuse) about how you REALLY feel.  If she is still being a mad person after that then i wouldn't want to have a kid with her.
Sam(antha)

[webbo]

Stumps, I understand where you are coming from and how you think about this. I've been thinking the same way throughout most of my life.

I've been saying the same thing, knowing what a burden I have been to my parents (but the burden, though real, is just one aspect), that I don't want to take on that same burden myself, and give up everything I think I value. And as always people say "Well, you might change your mind" and "Never say never", and of course I dismissed that just as you would.

And I haven't changed my mind from not wanting children to wanting children.  What is changing though, is a feeling that I COULD have children, that I could face all that entails, that I could take a different path in life - because at the end of the day, as webbo I think said, it's just life. Where is my life going? Apart from the next climb and the next toy soldier? I don't know, I've never really known. So how can I shut out a particular path in life?

As I say, I understand what you are saying, but yours is an antagonistic perspective in this thread, and it's a bit distracting.

fair enough man. if you think your bird is worth it then go for it. but there's always the risk you may have a child and end up resenting it and your lass. it's probably a very small risk but it's a possibility. i've seen it happen. it's all very well people banging on about happy families and the wonders of having a kid and shit but it doesn't work that way for everyone. it could turn out that way for you. alternatively it could tear you apart. its like when people who are having a rocky marriage think a kid will sort it out. it's bullshit. you have to be sure you want a child and that you can love it and look after it and be there for it forever. i just don't think having a child is something you can go half hearted into. it's not fair on you, your lass and especially not the kid.

all i'm saying basically is; 'it's just life' - well it doesn't have to be if you don't want it to be.

and fair enough chris webbo rico etc dismiss me as a twat, i couldn't give a shit what you think of me.

you really would'nt want know what i think of you.your old man must wish his balls had never dropped.

[Bubba]

There's nothing wrong with FOAMs views on this matter and he's allowed his opinion - I'm getting fed up with the way that some of the younger members of this forum are treated with such little respect so please cut it out.

FWIW here's my take on the children issue:

I've been in the same situation as Fiend but I was clear in my desire that I didn't want children at that time, so the relationship broke up. It wasn't the only reason it broke up, but it was one of the major ones. Looking back, I'm still happy with my decision because for me nothing has changed.

I have no desire to have children whatsoever. Ok, a small part of me will sometimes think "oh, it'd be nice" and I can see some of the positive things that people get from it, but to be honest I still see far more negatives.

It's not that I don't like children...I just don't want any of my own. Fuck that. I'm not prepared to give up the enormous commitment of time, money and emotional involvement that it would involve. I also think that the world is quite overpopulated enough already without me adding to the problem.

 When I look at the aspects of life that have changed in people that I know who have had kids, I see absolutely nothing that I would want. Some people I know who do have children even tell me that if they'd have known what it'd be like, then they wouldn't have had them.

Luckily, Ms Bubba has even less desire for children than me so I'm as sure as I can be now that we will never have kids.

[andyh]

good points all round there bubba.

i dont post a lot but i read, and the way some of u talk to the younger ones is well out of order. they might irritate you, but hey im sure u irritate some people as well. have a think about why you feel the need to be so patronising and nasty. it comes across as bullying pure and simple. and we all know thats a bad thing right. i for one got into climbing as an escape from bullying, and it used to be a friendly, inclusive community...

re having kids: personally i want none. but if i met the right girl that could change. if you cant be happy without her then have kids. if you think you could one day (in a year, 5 years whatever) be happy without her and meet someone else who you could love just as much then dont be emotionally blackmailed. breaking up with someone you love is the worst thing ever, but at least you know it'll be for the right reasons.

[gme]

You all make it sound like having kids is the end of your life and this is just not true. You can still climb, still go on trips (as many as work/ partners allow pre kids) and go for a pint with your mates. You just have to look at all the other shite that you do in your life and decide what to give up (TV, books, bored spells) and get use to having less sleep and being more organised. Its all about motivation.

Its bollocks to say it costs more its the mortgage/ car / beer /clothes etc etc that cost a lot of money kids cost F**k all.

I have had two kids in the last five years and admitidly have not climbed that much but thats through getting into surfing (go any weekend there is swell plus 3 weeks family holidays and two weeks with the lads each year) also went away all together for three months in a van last year (loads of surfing plus trips to buoux, ceuse, the alps and font. This could have easily been a climbing trip)

I also work 60+ hours a week which gets in the way of all the above far more than the kids.
Just started training again by going on my lunch break (again you have to make the time)

Anyone who gives everything up because of family is just using it as an excuss and would have have probably drifted out of climbing at some stage anyway.

Being in any relationship entails an amount of give and take for it to last the distance, with or without kids.

One thing i can say is that having kids is hard work and will test the most stable relationships to the limit. It is however far more rewarding than climbing up any bit of rock/resin/board or catching any wave.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

[Bubba]

kids cost F**k all.

http://www.handbag.com/finance/householdfinance/raisingkids/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4467154.stm

[SA Chris]

I'm getting fed up with the way that some of the younger members of this forum are treated with such little respect so please cut it out.

As an aside, I haven't got a problem with young members of this forum in general. I do, however, have a problem with people who behave like idiots, regardless of age. It's just that, on this forum the former often coincides with the latter.

I have behaved like an idiot in the past, and got a hard time because of it. Deservedly so.

[tommytwotone]

I'm getting fed up with the way that some of the younger members of this forum are treated with such little respect so please cut it out.

As an aside, I haven't got a problem with young members of this forum in general. I do, however, have a problem with people who behave like idiots, regardless of age. It's just that, on this forum the former often coincides with the latter.

I have behaved like an idiot in the past, and got a hard time because of it. Deservedly so.

hear hear. FOAM on this thread being a particular case in point.

[gme]

bubba

What a load of bollocks Kids cost as much as you want them to cost. Goto mamas and papas for your cot/highchair/pushchair etc and you will spend a lot. Speak to others you know who have  already had kids and you can usually get it for free.

Childcare is expensive but can be worked round ie only one of you work, both work part time, family help out etc. etc.

I know plenty of people who would not be able to feed or house themselves if these cost were true and i know people who spend twice that

Perhaps cost F88k all was not entirely correct but i dont think its the overiding consideration when compared to the changes you have to make in your life.

[Bubba]

bubba

What a load of bollocks

Don't blame me, I just posted links to what is considered to be the *average* cost for parenting a kid from birth up to and including university. There is much other research that suggests that it is quite expensive too.

Anyway, your original statement was that kids cost fuck all which is, to use your own term, bollocks, as you pretty much just agreed to anyway.

I know plenty of people who would not be able to feed or house themselves if these cost were true and i know people who spend twice that

yes, that's why they are *average* figures.


On the other issue:
If you feel somebody is talking shit, then by all means say so, but please do so in a reasonably civil manner. Calling people twats/telling them to shut up/wishing they have never been born/etc is not really acceptable and against the forum codes of conduct. All I ask is for everyone to treat each other with the respect they expect to be treated with themselves.

[webbo]