[al]

have struggled with a kind of pain in both shoulders, when i am at full stretch, regardless of difficulty - have looked into this online etc, and am pretty sure it is some kind of tendon impingment/inflammation.
that seems to be the easy part, the hard bit seems to be getting rid!
anyone had a similar thing and found a good way back from the abyss?

[Control freak]

Ive constantly had problems with my shoulders. The problem I had (which sounds the same as you) is that the supporting muscles at the top of my shoulder blades are too strong and the ones at the bottom are too weak. This means that when you reach up your shoulder blade doenst twist properly and traps the tendons in your shoulder leading to inflammation.

Ive seen the physio a few times and they give you exercises to try and build the weaker muscles up. Unfortunately I cant remember them well enough to be able to explain them

Ive found though that concentrating on your posture (a climber with bad psture -I dont believe it  :D ), swimming (front crawl) and doing weights to try and build up your chest (bench presses, inclined bench press) help to some degree too.

However if its just plain fucked, Id go and see a good sports physio - preferabley one which has a history of treating climbers.

If your anywhere near shef, Al Murray is the ex brit team physio and works privately out of one of the hospitals around Broomhill. You can probably get his details from the foundary (well, he used to)

[al]

cheers freak, wish i could say my shoulder muscles are too big, think it is years of no stretching, lots of bouldering, working at a computer and bad posture etc
my main issue is whether to stop climbing for a while, or not?

[a dense loner]

it won't just go away al. it will come back when you start climbin again. i would go n give a physio some cash i it's that bad, freak is right with the opposing exercises too. look at steve's article with weights in the latest rag.  :wink:

[Johnny Brown]

I have a similar problem which started about a year ago. I did less and less climbing hoping the rest would help, it just got worse, last summer I climbed about twice and both times was crippled for about a week a couple of days later.

Sounds similar, feels like a block on long/ awkward reaches, not especially painful but definitely feels 'wrong'. Occasionally one of the tendons/ ligaments across the top pops into a wrong position and feels hideous until it goes back (always within a couple of seconds).

When I went to the doctor she poked me through my t-shirt and asked what I thought would help. I suggested physio, she agreed and shooed me out the office. I've just had fifteen sessions of physio/ acupuncture/ reiki  with a guy who climbs and treats climbers regularly with only a slight improvement. I would be careful about wasting your cash. He reckoned it wasn't a shoulder problem but tension in my back which prevents the shoulder working properly - however Freak's muscle imbalance sounds equally plausible. He also suggested buying a better mattress. Zaff suggested sports massage would be cheaper and just as good as physio. Most helpful thing I've found so far is yoga.  

Good news as I see it - its not actually an injury, so climbing on it isn't likely to cause damage. After a year failing to 'cure' it  (and reading a book on fell runners who are permanently injured and win races with broken ankles) I'm psyched to train through it - ie I've started climbing as hard as I can, though taking better care over warming up than I used to and trying to get at least 2 proper yoga sessions in a week. So far it seems to be working, and its a lot more fun...

[Dave Flanagan]

This might be useful http://www.theshortspan.com/features/injury/shoulder.htm, its not quite finished though.

[SA Chris]

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=119

Has some pretty good info too.

[al]

nice one JB, dense, lots of people reckon stopping makes things worse, interesting theory to train hard (you know fell runners live for pain)
am getting a basic sports massage off mike which has proved the best solution so far (and cheapest), plus cruising around in big red socks, up at the wall.
bottom line, i'm missing my grit chakra  :cry:

[LongMonkey]

Just bought this book (i've got elbow problems). It has a chapter devoted to shoulders and might be worth investing in before you spend loads on physio. It gives you various exersices to do and is clearly set out.
[/img]

[mark]

I was in the new Rocksport shop yesterday and had a quick nose around their bookshelves. Found and had a flick through this:


http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=478

On the basis of a couple of minutes spent flicking through it, the book looks like a good place to go for injury diagnosis and recuperation advice. Unfortunately it's £24.50. May I suggest that you nip into Rocksport to buy a block of chalk and while there have a quick peek at the shoulders section of the book.

[SA Chris]

I thought someone on here bought a copy of that book, TH maybe? Maybe we should buy a copy between us and it gets handed around to whoever needs it. I can guess it will be spending more time with some people than others.

[saltbeef]

its a very good book. huffy informs me it is on the hallam physiotherapy reading list. the problem is with self diagnosis is that it is dificult to be too objective. it is easy to convince yourself its one thing whilst not looking at the whole picture. and the rehab times in that book are seriously long. best advice get it checked out by someone who knows what they're talking about. i can't imagine any advice that anyone can give on here will be very useful without a thorough history and examination. i sawsome guy at the sheffield sports clinic, he was very good. i'll try and remeber his name.

[cofe]

worth checking out osteopaths too al:

lovejoy's chum kim thompson in hathersage sorted my elbow out and i'd highly rate him. basically does it all on 'feel'. really good. physios got me knowhere.

will have a phone number for him somewhere.

[SA Chris]

I rate osteos too. Guy in Bristol sorted my back out for me good and propa after I totally fucked it skiing a few years back.

[al]

nice feedback, seen that book too mark, looks good.
seems like the more you look into this stuff it comes down to the back?
its a funny thing when the pain is elsewhere to accept this, but having a session on my back did have a good response.
grimers shoulders were really bad a few years ago, and donie (GP) had a theory that all shoulder injuries would go after 18 months, whatever treatment you had and it was true for him! (i'm hoping not as i'm only 6/7 months in)
osteopaths, bowens, acupuncture, physios, reiki, kiropracters,
earth mother lovin........mmm, now that sounds like it might work

[Johnny Brown]

If Donie is right I'll be sorted by the trad season, sounds good.

Personally I have pretty much lost faith in all the reiki, acupuncture etc, basically if you're paying them you want them to be giving you some serious massage. Even the chirocrackty seems to have only pretty temporary effects.

[cofe]

giving you some serious massage.

osteos all the way then. they even through a few back-cracks in.

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

Most helpful thing I've found so far is yoga.  though taking better care over warming up than I used to and trying to get at least 2 proper yoga sessions in a week. So far it seems to be working, and its a lot more fun...

Like JB I recon stretching and yoga is the way forward, but I still occasionally use a chiropractor. In my laymans understanding of the back, we all have muscles/muscles around bones that freeze from time to time, my classic issue is my second rib, as soon as that happens the back compensates to try and ease the pain, this is when you get aches in others areas to the problem. Your posture changes to ease the ache, however slight. In minor cases, physio or yoga will ease up the muscles, and are ideal for day to day maintenance, however when your back properly locks up/twinges (you know it when it does! ie. agony) you'll need a chiropractor to unlock it. In serious cases you may need to return for a few repeat visits, as muscles have a 'memory' and have a tendency to return to the bad posture. This lessens quickly however. A good chiropractor should sort it in 3-5 visits. If they expect you to return every week for months on end go somewhere else. Then expect maintenance visits maybe every 3 months if you climb, or sooner if it starts hurting.

I've mentioned it before and I promise I don't work for them...if you climb regularly join Westfield Health Scheme Basically get up to 75% back on any private physio/chiro/osto. (say you fork out, £25 a visit, get a receipt, send it off, Westfield send you a cheque for £18.75. Visit has cost you £6.25. Easy.) You can even get a chiropodist to sort out your scummy feet! I'm on level 4 cos of my specs but you can pay as little as £1.10 a week.

Level 4:
Physiotherapy, Osteopathy,  Acupuncture & Chiropractic*
  (1 year benefit period) Policyholder  up to £850 per year
 Chiropody (1 year benefit period) Policyholder  up to £155 per year

The difference it makes is you go and get stuff sorted the day it starts hurting, you don't wait for ages as it gets worse hoping it will go away cos you don't want to fork out the cash. Do it. You know your worth it.  :D

(if you do sign up, don't mention any 'existing' problems cos they won't pay for them.  :wink: )

[ferret]

im sure i may get some interesting replys to this post as its gonna contain some hippy shit.
iv had a plethra of shoulder injuries over the years usually impingement of the bicep tendon due to bad posture and mustle imbalance. the turning point for me was seeing the same physio that jb has been visiting. after years of random treatments i hav a fairly good idea of the way that atogonistic mustles in the back cause various shoulder, elbow and even finger problems and hav had quite alot of success treating friend based on this knowledge.
on a physical front i would sugest that any climber pushing themselves hard shud use a theraband ( piece of elastic/rubber ) regularly. basic exercise arms shoulder width apart facing directly forward and pull directly backwards, basically creating a v in yor back. number of reps depends on strength of climber and of the band, but continue until u feel a pump in yor neck and upper back.
for example wen i started i struggled to do 10 now can comfortably do 100. shud go on every road trip. if you fell sum impingement do before and after climbing aswell as rest days. prevention is better than cure and injury or not i will have some deep massage/manipulation every couple of months. thereabands available from decathlon or yor physio.
another excersise requiring no band is to drop into push up position but instead of bending arms shrug shoulders again creating a v in the back.

the subject of energetic types of healing ( eg reikki ) is far more complicated. it depends on the healer the patient and also their relationship. if you are not open to this kind of healing and block it emotionally/mentally it will not hav the same effect or in extreme cases no effect at all. i find now that enegetic healing has more effect on me than the physical but i hav am a reikki 2 healer myself and hav been seeing the same guy for  3 years.
to get the most out of energetic healing u must believe ( or at least be open to the idea ) that it works, trust yor healer and understand that yor physicall ailments may be caused by emotional/spiritual or other issues in yor life.
i dont practice a great deal myself however in times of crisis ( ie roadtrips ) working on friends i hav had sum fairly dramatic results. the best example being one friend with a severe tendon tweak going from not being able to make a fist to climbing crimpy v8 roof problems in 3 days after just one treatment. this obviously not the norm and owed alot to the extremity ( relatively speaking ( on a 3 month roadtrip in th us )) of hte situation and the closeness ( ie trust) within our relationship.
all in all i wud recomend energetic treatment if you are open to the idea it can do only good and if nothing else is massively relaxing. for me it works best in combination with physical work as they are simply 2 sides of a coin. i find nowadays that wot i wud consider to be a fairly serious injury takes only 1 - 2 sessions to heal but i must stress this is as a result of 3 years of work of this nature both from other people and on myself and a far greater acceptance and understanding of the issues tha effect my life.
on the subject of accupuncture can be beneficial for all types of injury if you hav a pulley problem get it immediately its the shit!
nuff said :D

[Scouse D]

Who in Sheffield would you recommend for pully problems ferret?
And how much does it cost?

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah i'll second the needles in fingers ting. That did seem to work. My finger is pretty much full strength after only 6 weeks. However i also put that down to not stopping climbing at all - just work around it.

[ferret]

john ostroskis is the guy i see. also the same that it seems didnt get awesome results for jb. on the pulley front tho has cured my problems every time with needles ususally quite quickly. basic idea being pulleys are ligament therefore slow to heal because of low amount of bloodflow the micro injuries caused by the needles trigger the body to redouble its efforts to heal the area.

john ostroskis
the clinic
abbeydale road ( near tescos )
01142501162

usually will giv a bit of extra time to climbers if schedule permits

[ferret]

ooops 29 quid a session  maybe a couple more if its yor first visit

[Scouse D]

cheers for that-I've been plagued by finger injuries for years, time I tried something new

[a dense loner]

i have found a course of leeches to be beneficial for most injuries :wink:

[al]

agree adam, attitude plays a major part in this stuff, u big hippy.
tried john at the clinic, and had a few goes, but it's not cheap if the injury is chronic.
rate the therabandwagon though, and am trying to get into the habit.
my problem is never having been injured before, i'm finding it hard to get such a routine going.

[ferret]

short on cash work on it yorself or get mates to help. rmemorise the spots that john works and apply pressure yorself if ya cant reach get friends to help. if youve got antagonistic stuff in yor back the best way is to get somebody to apply pressure to the area. 1 hand vertical pushing down with pinky finger side of hand the other horizontal on top. start gently at first. try too relax into it with yor breathing as they apply more pressure. keep moving around until youve found the spot that refers pain to another area neck bicep elbow etc and work this for about  10 mins ( dont overdo it ) if you can do this regularly in combination with theraband should be able to climb thru it.
try to avoid moves where you are at full extent of reach especially dynamically shock loading in this position as this is mainly wot strains antagonistics

[webbo]

the theraband exs you mention do you mean like a straight arm tricep pulldown with the theraband fixed to something above you or like a chest expander movement.

[fatneck]

the theraband exs you mention do you mean like a straight arm tricep pulldown with the theraband fixed to something above you or like a chest expander movement.

I use the theraband mainly for warming up and chest expander type excercises. Kepp elbows tight into your side, palms face up, and pull outwards as far as you can (I know one very strong individual who can barely get an inch of outward movement doing this excercise). Also as the ferret described above (arms straight out in front of you and pull outwards).

I imagine the excercise you describe would be usefull as well.

Hope that helps!

[Falling Down]

Al... I get sore pains in the shoulders but not to the same extent that you describe but here's my two penneth anyway.

All round muscle and strength training - since I work away a lot staying in one place or another and don't have access to a gym I've had to figure out how to train using body weight. It's taken a while but I now have a routine that I can do a few times a week anywear that involves Tuck Planches, Pistons, Supermans, (trying) One Arm Pushups and a few other things.  As well as feeling better 'n stronger I've also noticed that aches and pains in elbows, shoulders and fingers are not as frequent.  

My conclusion is that whilst I'd realised that core strength and antagonistic muscle training was important I hadn't realised quite how specific and intensive these years of climbing and bouldering have been... It's been quite a revelation in some ways...

[a dense loner]

tuck planches, pistons? what are these falling?

[Falling Down]

Tuck Planche (note elbows aren't touching knees) ...



But it helps to start with the Frog Planche (knees outside and resting on elbows)



There's a great article here http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/ that is about building up to a full front-lever and a push-up planche (AKA the gobsmacking Fb8c+ manouver that our breakdancing mutant does in Huffy's video) as the two are complementary for abs and back development.  To quote Sommer

"They're a lot of fun to work, require no specialized equipment and yet give enormous returns in strength. Basically these two exercises promote extreme strength and stability throughout the shoulder girdle both anteriorly and posteriorly. In addition, they'll trash your core and work your lower back/hips thoroughly."

Pistons.. sorry that should've been Pistols.

Basically a one-legged squat but keeping the shin as vertical as possible to avoid straining the knee - whilst being great for the legs it's really a core strength/body tension thing.


Pistol Bottom Position

Have fun !

[Johnny Brown]

Just to clarify I'm not saying John Ostrovskis is full of shit or reiki is bollocks, I still rate the guy, however I'm not sure its that applicable to cod-shoulders. As is clear on this thread climber's shoulders are rarely actually injured as in damaged in some way, instead its muscle tension or imbalance.

All the reiki/ acupuncture stimulates stuff to heal, but if not actually damaged I'm not convinced it has a great effect. As soon as I went in with an actual injury (popped a tendon halfway through treatment) I got the all the reiki tingles etc in my hand but my back/ shoulder didn't seem interested.

[webbo]

the theraband exs you mention do you mean like a straight arm tricep pulldown with the theraband fixed to something above you or like a chest expander movement.

I use the theraband mainly for warming up and chest expander type excercises. Kepp elbows tight into your side, palms face up, and pull outwards as far as you can (I know one very strong individual who can barely get an inch of outward movement doing this excercise). Also as the ferret described above (arms straight out in front of you and pull outwards).

I imagine the excercise you describe would be usefull as well.

Hope that helps!

i do those,there was an article on cocktalk.which suggested the ex you describe but holding a folded towel under your arm so you are keeping your elbows in.also do them the other way pulling across your body.then the ex i mentioned.followed by lateral raises with a thumbs down grip.

what colour theraband do most people use.am i right in thinking it goes yellow,red,green,blue, black.i've been using red for about 3months doing the exs described above.i've just nipped across to the local wheelchair shop to order some green blue and black.need i have bothered.

[SA Chris]

Basically a one-legged squat but keeping the shin as vertical as possible to avoid straining the knee - whilst being great for the legs it's really a core strength/body tension thing.


Pistol Bottom Position

Have fun !

You should hear the noises my knee makes when I do those. Most unpleasant.

[fatneck]

what colour theraband do most people use.

I use the blue, but only cos that's what the physio gave me. She reckoned climbers should use the stronger ones...

[al]

i'm on the red band, found the yella a bit weedy, and the green went down well with some rice and peas.
on the john O thing, he seemed ok, but fuck it hurt

[saltbeef]

i feel your pain. i went to john ostrovoskis... ok not a slating but he reeled out the same thing to a number of people i know, ie probs with elbows, you have a problem with posture, do lots of wide arm press ups. and i think the massage he did actually damaged my elbow. alison macfarlane is the british team physio, she is apparently very good. i saw one of her colleagues, i forget his name but he's a senior lecturer in physio at hallam. he was very honest, refused to let me pay and gave me very good advice. I use a grey thera band.

[moose]

might be worth noting that the strength vs colour order for thera-bands seems to depend on whether they are latex-free or not.  

For latex therabands it's: yellow (light) < red < green < blue < black < silver < gold (super-super-heavy).

But on some websites I've seen latex-free bands listed: orange (light) < green < blue < plum (extra stong).

There's a useful exercise finder at  

http://www.thera-bandacademy.com/

click on a body part and it lists a load of suitable exercises:

[Paz]

I got the all the reiki tingles etc

And The Rhythm Of Life is a powerful beat, Puts a tingle in your fingers and a tingle in your feet,

Minted that I just found the musical I first heard that in :D

[SA Chris]

From the Guinness advert?

[Johnny Brown]

I use a grey thera band.

I can see a repeat of the CoC scenes here... saltbeef, dobbin etc in the schoolroom with a gold theraband...

I got the all the reiki tingles etc

And The Rhythm Of Life is a powerful beat, Puts a tingle in your fingers and a tingle in your feet,

Well, I was trying to believe it was the reiki at the time. With hindsight, it could have had more to do with the fact I had five massive needles stuck in my hand...

[Paz]

A shorter version was used in the Guinness advert than the extravanganza in Sweet Charity, where Big Daddy's church The Rhythm of Life is this month's choice of The Religion of The Month Club.  I'm just happy more people got to hear the track.  

[
Well, I was trying to believe it was the reiki at the time. With hindsight, it could have had more to do with the fact I had five massive needles stuck in my hand...

You'd believe expertly sticking five needles in your hand will do something.

[Nigel]

I use a grey thera band.

I can see a repeat of the CoC scenes here... saltbeef, dobbin etc in the schoolroom with a gold theraband...

I use a green and a red one. Together. Check me out.  :roll:

P.S. no one will beat Ferret, he uses a tractor tire. Doubled over. On fire. Then he swallows it in one.

[Johnny Brown]

whilst a friend maintains careful, precise-but-still-painful pressure on his back. Amazing. Is it coincidence he looks like Jesus?

[Johnny Brown]

Also look at the pictures of some of my current group of athletes. Pretty buff for boys who mostly range from 7-11 years old

Good article, though I'd be worried about reading it around paedo-paranoid types... or have I just been watching too much brasseye? That guy is as gay as a window - you can't have gays in the forces, they sing songs, they muck about, they nudge others when they are shooting...

[ferret]

had a hair cut a while back  :D

[Lostboy]

I've just developed serious pain in my left shoulder, was lucky enough to spend an intimate evening with four physio friends of mine.  After various test etc the diagnosis was actually tendonitis of the bicep where it joins the scapula.  This has been totally caused by over development of chest, biceps, and esp romboids which are apparently the muscles in the middle of your back at the top.  The difficulty is that you have to totally isolate the muscles which are underdeveloped, theraband excercises etc, this is a very common problem with climbers which gives the classic climbing hunched over look.  my friends are putting together a regime for me, will post it on here for anyone else with a similar problem.

[saltbeef]

something that struck me at the foundry yesterrday was how everyone who climbed on the steep bit had a sort of rucked up bit of t shirt around the front of their shoulders, normal people with reasonable posture don't get it. huffy has a white thera band...

[Pemb]

Found this on UKClimbing, it may have been mentioned earlier in the thread. It just gives some information on shoulder tendonitis and some theraband exercises you can do.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=119

This website also has some different theraband shoulder exercies and other therband exericise rountines for various injuries.

http://www.thera-bandacademy.com/default.asp

These exercises have been quite helpful to me and probably worth a go as they only take a few minutes to do each day.

[Lostboy]

Been having acupuncture on my shoulder for about three weeks now, seems to be working.  training again with no discomfort, however went out on monday and finding it hard to really warm it up and now feels a little sore.  Been lucky as my GP is trained to do acupuncture, so its free.

[Claire]

Ive had long running problems with my shoulder. Spent far too many hours in Ysbty Gwynedd. It just kind of started one day no injury. I just fell off a route in the slate.
 Ive been electrocted, prodded, pulled, cracked and strapped.
Theraband exercises stopped the pain eventually but its still not right. the last pysio I went to see told me I could do all the exercises in the world but itll never get better if i have bad posture. So far sorting out my posture has worked best.
 It doeasn't hurt most of the time it just doesn't feel right and makes horrendous crunching noises sometimes.