[r-man]

Time for another list. Routes that are generally considered to be boulder problems with a few bolts.

Sport

9a+ - Violent New Breed, Giggleswick - V15
9a - The Fly, Rumney - V13
8c+ - Hubble, Raven Tor - V13

8a+ - Pump up the Power - V9

7c+ - Hurricane on a Millpond, Cuttings - V10
7c - Hall of Mirrors, Cuttings - V7

Trad

E4 6c - Life in a Radioactive Dustbin - V7



What other classics are there? Maybe some in lower grades?

[sonja]

caviar 8a+
pump up the power 8a+
hotfun closing 8a
culloden 8a+

[sonja]

not sure v grades

[Paz]

Does it matter if there's a 6a start to a ledge?
Hurricane on a Millpond F7c+, V10.

[r-man]

caviar 8a+
pump up the power 8a+
hotfun closing 8a
culloden 8a+

Need the bouldering grades really. That's what I'm curious about.

[r-man]

Does it matter if there's a 6a start to a ledge?
Hurricane on a Millpond F7c+, V10.

Nah, if there's an easy section that makes no difference to the grade of the climb, it's still a boulder problem on a rope.

Incidentally, what V grade do you reckon Hall of Mirrors would get? I suppose that could go on the list too.

[chris]

whats the point to the list....id like to see you do caviar without the bolts, long way to fall considering there is an old trad e7 on that wall.

most of the older sport routes that 'could be' bouldered out have bolts in them because, A: they didnt have pads 'back in the day' and B; if you want to 'dog' the moves on the upper section of hubble fuck bouldering out the start each time:wink:

[r-man]

The point is that they are routes that need bouldering rather than stamina ability. I'm just interested to see roughly how hard you have to boulder to climb various routes of that style (and yes I know clipping makes it all harder).

Obviously the reason they are routes is because generally they wouldn't be that easy to do without a rope (though hasn't the fly been done sans string?).

[dave]

whats the point to the list....id like to see you do caviar without the bolts, long way to fall considering there is an old trad e7 on that wall.

apparently quentin fisher used to the soloing caviar without mats.

this is the sea  is pretty bouldery. as is salar.

[SA Chris]

(though hasn't the fly been done sans string?).

Yup, by Jason Kehl http://climbing.com/current/boulder03/

[Paz]

Incidentally, what V grade do you reckon Hall of Mirrors would get?

Not that I've got my beta sequence map in front of me or anything  :wink:  but there's a hard clip (some people skip it, I'm planning on reversing from there but every time I do that I can't start the rockover) and about 12 none trivial hand moves, with more to follow after that and another clip in the middle.  The climbing's definitely of a bouldery style, if highball then, but I'm sure it's not Font 7a (cos they're desperate aren't they and if I could've started it off the ground I'd have done it already, it'd be way eaiser then, even though the start's only 6a!), I reckon V5 though it might get V6 on portland but you know what they can be like.  I like it cos you've got three points of contact on some of the hard moves with funky chicken palms and heels on the aretes, which is unusual for a sport route, but I'd rather have some proper holds to pull on or do some stupid jumps off of.

[r-man]

V5 my bum! Like you said the bottom bit is only 6a or something, and the meat of the climbing is definitely a boulder problem. It wouldn't be 7c if it was only V5, surely? I was going to suggest V7/8, but even if that's too hard, it must be at least V6.

I've only done it on a top rope - I was planning to skip the clip on the lead, scary but easy climbing once you've got the flowstone. Let me see, what was my sequence - I started by leaping from the good jugs into a rockover, slapped right hand higher, got stood up, heelhooked and crossed over to the crimp on the bulge. Then stood up in corner, left hand higher up to the edge of the bulge, left foot up high and smearing, pulled up and into the groove. Balance and lean over to grab the flowstone on the left. Breathe.

That's only about 8 hand movements from the starting jugs, depending on what you do with your hands getting into the groove. Perhaps there's an easier sequence though?

about 12 none trivial hand moves, with more to follow after that and another clip in the middle.

It does sound like a lot more hand movements than I used. Doing it my way felt harder than most V6s I've done. V7s too. I'm certainly interested to know what your sequence was though...

[Ru]

Now I've never been anywhere near this route, but can Hurricane on a Millpond really be V10 if its 7c+??

It's either not V10, or it's not 7c+. V10 is about 8a+/8b if not harder, with bolts in.

I'm guessing it's not V10...

PUTP is about font 7c/V9. I know I gave it V10 in the guide, but I've changed my mind.

[Paz]

r-man, I'm  psyched if you think it's V7/8.  I was pissing the start of Subyouth using a knee bar (need to finish it really, `only' a jump to a jug from there) but I didn't think I was bouldering at anywhere near that level.  
I don't think anyone on here is going to get annoyed about the beta, but anyway.  

clip the higher staple from the scratchy incut (cut your finger nails) on the right, go back down.

1) LH (crossover, off the break or the big sidepull to the) jug
2) RH incut on right,
3) LH 3 finger flowstone dish, thought you had to twist your R leg in at the back of the roof for this or put your RH to the jug (you can get that straight away, skipping a move) but the next bit's all about pulling anyway:
4) RH undercut pinch, foot on jug (left most bit) on lip of roof, some how rockover matching the pinch/undercut to get the last bit of umph - LF on a little edge out left above the bulge
5) LH arete/sidepull (nothing)  swing right
6) RH R arete of sentry box LF smear just above the jug left of the dish RF on incut (some people do use a heel hook but you can weight your foot his way).  Squeeze.  
LH on a ripple (nothing) at base of ramp?
7) RH Cross over to crimp.  LF back out left on little hold you already used.  clip under rihgt arm.  RF smear you've already used LF high on to various things at the base of the ramp
LH pinch arete just above the crimp, rock over L, R heel /toe/ twist back right under arete (of sentry box) to take a
9) RH keyhole pocket (thumb up to lay off it)  RF either to an edge, a black smear or a dimple that works very well (annoyingly right by the rope)
10) High step LF on to the crimp, good to get weight over and round the arete, start slapping left hand up the left arete, there's a good flowstone pocket up high, but you don't need it, stand up
11) Pretend to put your right foot on.  RH to a big ledgey rail hoping your RF doesn't barn door off (it hasn't barndoored on me yet) . A very annoying 5a move that sod's law says I'm going to fluff.  
12) Match. Bridge out left to a good foot hold.  Shake out.  Breath, as you say, etc.

For my benefit the finishing 5b moves are, RH to a crimp RF smear, LF good flowstone edge, LH? good high crimp, RF on to edge and rock up and resist the temptation to dive into the big muddy break.  Stand up on a bomber heel on the ledge using a finger lock in flowstone flutings to clip the lower off.  

I've heard of a knee bar in the sentry box which I couldn't get in for the life of me, and of various methods that go up the groove, including a tantalising no hands rest.  The guy I got most of the above sequence off was trying to go up the groove by doing a bigger rockover off the crimp, but always ended up falling off slapping for a ledge (the thing you bridge to in 12), never looked like he was going to do it that way so I never bothered looking there (it's not like there's any holds).

[Paz]

Now I've never been anywhere near this route, but can Hurricane on a Millpond really be V10 if its 7c+??

It's either not V10, or it's not 7c+. V10 is about 8a+/8b if not harder, with bolts in.

I'm guessing it's not V10...

PUTP is about font 7c/V9. I know I gave it V10 in the guide, but I've changed my mind.

So you think boulder grades are useful for routes, someone was mentioning something about that on rocktalk...

It's one of these odd Oxley routes.  That's why I'm suspecting there's a different set of grades for us big heavy folk!  Pete gave it 8a, until it got done in a day.  

It's a bit of an overlap/vertical face -"The most technical face moves in Dorset" and less steep things can get undergraded as sport routes.  I'm pretty sure 7c+ was the crag knowledge unless I've misheard someone or people are being slack and
bandying about adding pluses on.  You'd believe V9/7c wouldn't you?  I would.  But as I say, they probably just mean Portland V10  :wink:

[r-man]

Hmm, it's been a while since I was on it, so I don't remember all the details well enough. Basically the rockover was my first move - I leapt into it from both hands on the jug. The crux for me was once I pinched the arete, pulling up to get stood up on smears. I'd forgotten about the right hand hold just above, but I think I did use that. So were you actually on the sentry box itself then? Think my feet were in the groove all the way.

[Paz]

Sorry, I've officially declared it to be a project and consider myself an expert.  

I don't know what you mean by jumping into the rock over off the jug - I'm rocking over onto the jug.  The method I'm using sort of goes up the rib/buttress in between, using the arete of the sentry box and the arete of the groove, and about one foot hold in the groove and one foothold in the sentrybox.  

The other thing I've not been able to work out is what the hell Mike Robertson's doing with that left egyptian in the photo in the old (well, the middle) Dorset Rockfax.

Ru, there's (or there was as holds have come off) actually another one at the even shorter even more bouldery New (`Nu') Cuttings.  The Fibonacci Sequence 7c+/ V10.  It's Jimbo's route (he's also done Hurricane ITMP) so he's probably the guy to query.  Ask him why you can't see a harness in the FA photo on rockfax (probably just the FA of the problem).  I kind of agree with you, as some of the 7b+s there have V7/8 starts - as far as I'm concerned there are easier ones in the world.  Thankfully it seems to be limited to only a few routes, even within Portland, though on the flipside there's a cool looking long V10 traverse of a break that was thought to be more like F8a.

[r-man]

I don't know what you mean by jumping into the rock over off the jug - I'm rocking over onto the jug

Literally that. I found it a stretch to reach that high left hand hold, which was what my friend was doing - though it seems you found a good way with more intermediates.

I had my right hand round to the right of the jug and my left hand on the left of it, and from there I jumped into a rocked over position (with right foot on the jug), then slapped right hand upwards. Odd move, but it works for me.

All this talk makes me want to go to portland! It's been over a year since I tried HOM, and that was in the last couple of hours of the last day of my weekend - I've been meaing to go back and lead it ever since...

[andy_e]

we should do that shizz next summer dude

[Control freak]

Life in a radioactive dustbin at burbage nth has is definitely stretching the description of a route. More like 7a+ above a bad landing

[r-man]

Life in a radioactive dustbin at burbage nth has is definitely stretching the description of a route. More like 7a+ above a bad landing

Good idea, lets have a trad list...  

[Mr K]

Hurricane is no where near V10, more like V7 or 8. I think the words "most technical moves in Dorset" should be followed by "over 40 feet above the ground". Try out problems like Solar Stone or Jimbo's Wall (sorry about the name) far more technical in my opinion.

Fibonacci was never climbed with a rope - the top is piss and the problem revolves around the bottom section. The French route grade is irrelevant and should be ignored. How can you give a boulder problem a meaningful route grade?

Keep trying on Subyouth - don't forget the top part to the belay is tricky too!

JIMBO

[Sloper]

Stanage Without Oxygen, highball V6/7 or E5 6c tested the fall repeatedly but you'll need cold conditions.  Word of advice, the top mantle when there's snow on it is f--king desparate and quite scary.

Then there's half the crag at Earl / Slipstones.  Sinbad I think is a scary highball V4 or E3 6b

[uptown]

How can you give a boulder problem a meaningful route grade?

It's hard to, but I think we've all tried in the past. (pre onset of bouldering for the masses.)

I originally gave Faze action at Rivelin E4 6c - now regarded as 7b, and The art of white hat wearing at Curbar likewise E4 6c - I guess this would prove a classy 7b too if people took mats to the bottom.
I remember discussing the grade of WHW with Mike Lea at the time - he reckoned any unprotected 6c moves should warrant E4 - We all learnt from the Dawes' grades in those days.

[Fiend]

How can you give a boulder problem a meaningful route grade?

You can't with pure, safe boulder problems (e.g. right hand end of slipstones - previously mis-described with route grades).

But with highball  boulder problems / micro-routes, you can in the same way you give any other route a meaningful route grade: How hard is the crux, how sustained is it, how serious is it, what other factors are there that affect the overall difficulty of the climb??

Really quite easy.

[Paz]

Hurricane... is no where near V10, more like V7 or 8. I think the words "most technical moves in Dorset" should be followed by "over 40 feet above the ground".

OK, cheers Jimbob, thanks ever so much for clearing that up.  It's probably me who's heard it wrong about Hurricane being Font 7csomething the but I'll check.  A conditionsy V7 / 8 most of us can't touch is a lot more believable.  Ru should be pleased with himself that he was right.  All we need now is Pete to come on from Nu Zealand and tell us how hard he thinks it is and I'll be made up.  

The French route grade is irrelevant and should be ignored. How can you give a boulder problem a meaningful route grade?
Keep trying on Subyouth - don't forget the top part to the belay is tricky too!

Glad to hear we're singing from the same hymn sheet.  I'm pretty psyched to get get back to the cuttings now too.  There's just never enough hours of daylight for everything there.  Are all those blocs in the rockfax?

[Mr K]

All we need now is Pete to come on from Nu Zealand and tell us how hard he thinks it is and I'll be made up.

Pete's not moved to Nu Zealand yet - so you might still see him at the cliffs!

JIMBO

[andy_e]

You can't with pure, safe boulder problems (e.g. right hand end of slipstones - previously mis-described with route grades).

e.g
Sulky Little Boys - HVS 6c
The Square - VS 5c Wilton Three, another good example

[Fiend]

Yes those are clearly pisstakes.

I guess there's two types of boulder problem routes:

1. Proper micro-routes ( / highballs when done with mats). Actually these aren't necessarily that bouldery, they could be steadily sustained and non-cruxy.

2. Longer leadable routes with distinctly boulder cruxes. "Boulder problem in the sky" type climbing.

1s are all obvious everyone knows them and does them already usually as boulder problems.

2s hmmm can I think of some more...

A few suggestions:

Cenotaph Corner: VS 5a with one god awful V1 move in that's such a bag of... it wouldn't get in a guidebook if it was a real boulder problem.

Left Wall: HVS 5b with a steady V2 section that would be a classic warm-up.

Suicide Wall: Fairly nondescript V1 problem followed by various E2 5a death.

The Shield (Norber Scar): Interesting V3(?) wall problem in the midst of a F6a+.


Fuck, brain's gone dead, can't think of any more  :?

[grimer]

The art of white hat wearing at Curbar likewise E4 6c - I guess this would prove a classy 7b too if people took mats to the bottom.

Is White hat Wearing the square cut groove Up? If it is, is there a line up the wall to the right of this as well?

[Bonjoy]

It is a square cut shallow groove thing on a short section facing south, at the middle left end of the crag. I don't know of one going up the wall directly right.

[grimer]

yeah, i know the one, just wasn't sure if this was the one TAOWHW took, as I remember a potential line beside it.

It looks good, have you done it.?

[Bonjoy]

Tope roped it many moons ago when Andy first did it. It was excellent from what I remember, but the landing was a crippler. I'm pretty keen to take a second look with enough pads though. It's amazing what you can safely boulder above with enough pads and spotters.

[Paz]

Y
2s hmmm can I think of some more...

Cenotaph Corner:
Left Wall:

You can give the crux's boulder grades if you want but you're just repackaging a 5c move as a V1.  It's irrelevant and unhelpful to describe the climbing on those routes as bouldery in any way.  Not only can't you afford to hang around below the crux for long, you would still aim to flash the crux, same as the rest of the route, and you're more than a little boxed by the time you're there.  They're cruxy routes, that British trad grades actually work OK for, with the 5c crux where it should be...  Now if we were to give them sport grades,

F6b, F6b++.

You need a decent rest before the cruxy bit before you can describe a route as bouldery, personally I think even a shake out, (or even a rest on a bolt)  does not necessarily enable you to recover enough to describe the climbing as bouldery (e.g. max power) style.  
A lot of slabs fit this criteria by default, and it's hard to think of any that don't have a runout or more climbing after the bouldery bit or aren't 2 move wonders.  And remember, attempting a crux in a bouldery style may lead to big ledge syndrome.  

Roof Route
Groove Route
Kirkus' Corner
Jeepers Creepers
Now or Never
The roof above Great Wall (Froggatt)
what's Ontos like?
how many moves above the break is does salmon slab at Bamford have?

[Fiend]

Paz, I know, I know, I do occasionally go trad climbing you know. And I have occasionally spoken out in support of the british grading system  :wink:

However I chose those routes because they are very cruxy and have good rests before the crux (CC - whole route is a rest, LW - could bivvy off the jam in the niche, SW - the, errr, ground). The grades are just for a bit of fun, yeah?

Oh, thought of another: MGC, Sheperd's Crag - V1, rest, V2, top.

[andy_e]

Kirkus' Corner

it says it is exposed but the exposed bit is easy, i didn't flash it and lowered off to the ground, but not where the route starts! it's strange! (first E1 by the way!) it definitely falls into the second of fiend's two boulder problem routes.

[webbo]

if your not able to flash/solo this young man :shock: .you should be asking for soft touch e1s.

[andy_e]

if your not able to flash/solo this young man :shock: .you should be asking for soft touch e1s.

bearing in mind it was over a year ago

[webbo]

so you've gone from lowering off hvs/e1s to being so solid at e3 your wanting to try easy e4s in the last year .right

[uptown]

yeah, i know the one, just wasn't sure if this was the one TAOWHW took, as I remember a potential line beside it.

I reckon you could go up the wall to the right grimer.

[grimer]

Ah, i see. What you have your right hand on is what I'm thinking of. Nice pic andy.

[dave]

the wall to the right of TAOWHW has a slighty better landing but is flithy as shit at the moment. the landing on TAOWHW looks proper ill - just basicallly a big fuck off block, as visible in that phote. if you had enough mats to even the level out with the ground it may be ok, but you probably need 6+ mats, and then you'd need spotting off the mat pile....

[cowboyhat]

Off topic...

Ru - "PUTP is about font 7c/V9. I know I gave it V10 in the guide, but I've changed my mind."

Too late. And mainly good, because I disagree. Its hard. ie. 7c+...

[dobbin]

I agree with cbh and I completely disagree with Ru. Its 7c+.

[uptown]

the wall to the right of TAOWHW has a slighty better landing but is flithy as shit at the moment. the landing on TAOWHW looks proper ill - just basicallly a big fuck off block, as visible in that phote. if you had enough mats to even the level out with the ground it may be ok, but you probably need 6+ mats, and then you'd need spotting off the mat pile....

I paid a visit here yesterday and revise my previous thoughts about TAOWHW - probably a 6 mat double spot at the mo, however, there was chalk on it and with a wee bit of bloc rocking could fall into a highball category. The wall to the right is in need of roped scrubbing, yet may well give a very good 7b(?) and 3 mats should be enough. The new 7a just to the right is very good too and has a perfect landing. Anyone know what Si called this?

To add to the circuit, would Happy House (HVS 5C) and Blue Hawaii (E3 6B) fall into highball parameters? - both have flat landings and are excellent.

[Johnny Brown]

The new 7a just to the right is very good too and has a perfect landing. Anyone know what Si called this?

Be somebody or be somebody's fool.

Agree, good circuit in this area.

[a dense loner]

i ain't gettin on no plane

[Houdini]

"I love it when a plane comes together."

[Andy Harris]

Here's my Peak limestone penneth of boulder routes

Font 8b
Hubble (Tor)

Font 8a+
Bastard (Rubicon)

Font 8a
Don't't think there are any

Font 7c+
Jehova Kill
Karma Killer
Eugenics
Revelations?

Font 7c
Revelations?
PUTP
Inch test
Zeke
Culloden
Dialectics
Boot Boys
Kali Yuga?
Masculine Power trip

[Bonjoy]

  Have you been swallowing Rupert pills Andy? I'd say a fair few (most) of those 7cs and 7c+s could do with pushing up a notch! Either that or all the limestone bouldering in the peak is way overgraded. I presume the grade is for the whole route not just the crux?

[dobbin]

PUTP is well Font 7c+! Damn you harris and those steely fingers.

[Ru]

Has Eugenics been reclimbed?

[Andy Harris]

Not that I know of but I did have a quick play on it last year and did all the moves. Incredibly painful & fingery and definately harder than the original variant. Harder than anything there except Bastard.

Incedentaly I belayed Steve McClure years ago when he onsighted to the break putting the clips in, clipping the 2nd bolt below his feet and on for a decker. Then came of on the big dirty holds. Thought this should suit me and got promptly shut down!

[Bonjoy]

Not that I know of but I did have a quick play on it last year and did all the moves. Incredibly painful & fingery and definately harder than the original variant. Harder than anything there except Bastard.

Sounds a bit tough for 7c+.

[dave]

what about shit like entree and love of money?

[Ru]

Entree is about 7c I'd say. Love of Money is quite hard, much harder than Lets Get Physical (which is also about 7c the way I did it and good fun). Tried it last year in very bad conditions and fell off the last move 3 times. As hard as PUTP but more sustained - font 7b/+ into a font 7b+, separated by a hard clip off a crimp. Maybe a little easier in better conditions as there's a couple of condition dependant holds at the "top" (i.e. about 4m up).