Strength losses in mid 40s

UKBouldering.com

Help Support UKBouldering.com:

I read this thread with great interest (thanks everyone), it is all very mysterious to me. I'll have a listen to Pete's podcast link (though I'm not sure how splendid a physical training goal David Cameron provides :) )

I'm in my mid 50s. Over the past couple of decades, I've had periods when I've been feeble and periods when I've been stronger. For me it seems to come and go both on a month to month basis and longer, year by year scale too. Certainly not exercising enough makes me weaker but I sense that my body sometimes responds far more positively to exercise.

Is the basis of strength understood? If say an 8C climber has an accident and their arm is in a cast, the muscles etc will waste away. But they will then astonishingly easily recover once they can start training/climbing again. An identical twin of theirs who hadn't trained up, would have to make huge efforts to get to the level of strength that was so easily recovered.

This was really brought home to me twenty years ago after I had had chemo for lymphoma. I was super delighted to have recovered and psyched to get climbing again. I felt well in myself, my hair was growing back etc. My first attempt was at the Matrix bouldering room. I had to summon all my technique and guile and flat out flailing dynamic coordination to get up two (generously graded) font 3s (the easiest problems designed for novices in trainers). I have never had head-to-toe DOMS and stiffness like I did after that session. But then, what flabbergasted me, was that simply by turning up and having a go a few times a week, I was able to get back to re-doing Sardine at the Tor within a month. Zippy told me that was what he expected. Many years before, Zippy had been on holiday with Ben Moon after Ben had a broken arm. Apparently, Ben had gone from full atrophy to 8b+ over the course of the holiday at a time when 8b+ was cutting edge. I was just doing a punter version of that.

My point is that, whilst obviously strength requires muscles and connective tissues etc, that isn't really what it's about. It's about the neural signals that direct the engagement that induce those to be deployed and stimulated to build/recover. How the hell that memory of how strong we have trained to become gets set (and why and what we can do to hack it) is what seems baffling to me. Perhaps this is all very well understood by everyone else and I'm just ignorant though.

I think, I've sometimes got crapper by feeling despondent about not being able to repeat party-piece boulder problems and then having duff sessions ineffectual trying. The way to break out has been to get on something else where I have the excuse of unfamiliarity and so don't beat myself up. My guess is that if I had a better attitude, I could get the training gain from the party piece, but mind tricks are what it's all about.

I'm unfamiliar with weight lifting but by analogy with my personal experience of trying to regain bouldering benchmark capability, perhaps Fiend, try different styles of lifts. Perhaps you having a benchmark of what you think you ought to be able to do is what is taking the fun out and that is sabotaging those mysterious neural strength settings. Perhaps try working up to a personal best in turkish get ups (with a barbell tike in a Victorian circus) or Olympic style lifts or whatever. You would have no expectations to beat yourself up over. Having had a spell away from deadlifts etc would also then give you an excuse when you got back to those. You would make some gains re-familiarising yourself to those and the try-hard momentum from that could spring you on.

My siege on Caviar heavily relied on me deploying such (mind?) tricks and languished before I did.

I totally appreciate that other people on here are far more knowledgable about all of this than me. I'm laying out my (mis?)-conceptions to be debunked as a learning process as much as anything.
 
Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.

OMM :strongbench: Inspiring stuff! Do you train on the rings regularly?

Fiend, I think the big change as we grow older is the need to plan and balance work vs recovery. I suspect your answers lie in the relationship between intensity, volume and rest. I can’t imagine days cleaning Lancashire quarries are great for recovery, for example.
 
webbo said:
I don’t know whether I’ve understood correctly your reply to Liam where you say high volume is good for you but high intensity breaks you. However it sounds like you are trying to high intensity weights amongst your high volume.
High volume of moderately challenging climbing = fine, seems to help with injury and overall capacity too.
High intensity of bouldering / training = I break every time I try it.
High volume of moderately challenging weights = never tried due to hypertrophy risk
High intensity of weights = only had one very minor injury ever and that was due to DLing after running to gym.


OMM, LH89: Interesting. There does seem to be a trend here that the issue is a combination of: strength decline PLUS decline in rebounding into pushing strength PLUS decline in ability to recover enough when, say, high volume of climbing (which feels fine on it's own) is in the mix. If that's the main issue then it's going to be bloody tricky to get the balance right given I need to keep constantly active for my physical and mental health :ninja:
 
Stone - from my understanding, I think most of what you've said about strength is fairly accurate. It's the same with flexibility. Allegedly even the stiffest people can be put into the full spits whilst under general anesthesia; the only thing preventing us from doing it while awake is our brain putting on the breaks due to decades of reinforcing a limited range of motion! When we try to improve our flexibility, it's not really the tissues we're trying to stretch, but teaching ourselves that it's safe to go further by building strength at the end of the range. For this reason, passive stretching is usually ineffective for adults.
 
mrjonathanr said:
Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.

OMM :strongbench: Inspiring stuff! Do you train on the rings regularly?

Fiend, I think the big change as we grow older is the need to plan and balance work vs recovery. I suspect your answers lie in the relationship between intensity, volume and rest. I can’t imagine days cleaning Lancashire quarries are great for recovery, for example.
2-3 times a week.

I know it’s unusual and I’m “lucky”, in that I live alone in my apartment for the 8 months of the year I’m in Dubai (plays merry hell with my mental health, to be honest. Alone=lonely), so I set up my living room and there’s a small weights gym and a 20m pool in my building. The rig staring at me, shames me into getting off my arse, even when I’m pretty knackered from work.
IMG-0093.jpg
 
Obviously this is aimed at males ( ie Fiend) but it made me think of where my missus is at. She used to run loads and climb little. All fine. Then coming up to perimenapause running stopped being useful, any weight management she found from running in her 30s ceased. She did some research, cut the running to a minimum and switched to strength based activity, primarily bouldering, but also weights. It really worked well for her, and I can see I'm going to keep up my game or she'll overtake me :lol:
The link between hormones and strength training seems well established ( if little broadcast) for women, I'm sure it must be similar in men
 
I haven't read all this but from a skim I think the gist is that you do lots of lower intensity exercise and have noticed a decline from PB strength? This doesn't seem surprising if the way to gain and maintain strength is by doing less volume at higher intensity.

If you're using a high volume of low intensity exercise to try and maintain your mental health, is that not mutually exclusive from doing exercise that would gain/maintain strength? Maybe you can't both have your cake and eat it?

This would raise a question - and I'm not making any suggestions here because I have no idea what you've tried to date and whether what might work for me might also work for you - whether there is another way of managing your mental health than by doing lots of low intensity exercise. I presume you've spoken to a GP, sought counselling, use SSRIs, and I presume you've also tried to engage in some routine activity that isn't climbing-related and which gets you out of the house and interacting with others. This needn't be paid employment, it could be voluntary work (not guidebook work which is often done alone and isn't routine).

Please don't feel the need to list exactly what you've tried that isn't low intensity climbing. This isn't an interrogation of your private medical history, nor do I doubt that you have tried lots of alternative therapies, I'm just thinking aloud. If low intensity exercise was the best and only way to manage my mental health then (personally) I'd accept the strength decline as a battle which needs to be lost in order to win the war.
 
@OMM no chance of staring out of the window and trying to forget about training with that set up :lol:
 
Oldmanmatt said:
I filmed myself training on the Flight Deck at the 6 month point, just out of amazement at my recovery. I believe trying on a moving surface helped, by the way. https://www.instagram.com/p/CfyaZgYjOB9/?igsh=aHNzNmNpZ3dvMjJw

:strongbench:

Is that one of the RFA 'Forts' or 'Waves'? I nosed around in the guts of all of the Forts and the Waves over the last ten or so years, planning/pricing access jobs when they're in for maintenance. Mostly cleaning fuel tanks or engine vents :sick:
 
petejh said:
Oldmanmatt said:
I filmed myself training on the Flight Deck at the 6 month point, just out of amazement at my recovery. I believe trying on a moving surface helped, by the way. https://www.instagram.com/p/CfyaZgYjOB9/?igsh=aHNzNmNpZ3dvMjJw

:strongbench:

Is that one of the RFA 'Forts' or 'Waves'? I nosed around in the guts of all of the Forts and the Waves over the last ten or so years, planning/pricing access jobs when they're in for maintenance. Mostly cleaning fuel tanks or engine vents :sick:
Bay Class landing ship. Transiting to Indian Ocean to the Gulf.
 
mrjonathanr said:
Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.

I did, out of curiosity. Not sure I'd recommend it. The programme (and general tone) in his book seems aimed towards a stereotype of a 50-something overweight senior manager in banking, who's never been particularly interested in physical challenge. I read it with a sense of 'these are not my people'. However the fundamentals seem pretty legit and I think are worth trying to adopt. I'm particularly interested in the claims about the relationship between fasting, heavy weights, intensity and hormones - I alluded to this in the thread about knee injuries on here a while back (also started by Fiend...). I've read various of the studies linked in Robert's book. It doesn't appear super-convincing that they show strong evidence for what the claims, not that I'm any expert, and imo his language makes the science sound a lot more settled than it is. But there does appear to be something there. Have also read studies that contradict his claims. The problem with most of the studies is small scale, and they're never quite testing for MY specific circumstances! Trying by doing.. do what feels good nd seems to work, beware of harmful side effects. Seems the best way.
 
Will Hunt said:
I haven't read all this
obviously ;D

but from a skim I think the gist is that you do lots of lower intensity exercise and have noticed a decline from PB strength? This doesn't seem surprising if the way to gain and maintain strength is by doing less volume at higher intensity.
Not quite. In the past I've taken time off PB strength, but as long as I've done lots of lower intensity exercise to keep my body moving, I've got back into PB strength quite quickly with a return to some regularity (unlike if I take time off LOLIE too in which case I grind to a halt and it takes ages for me to get anything back). As per...

My previous experience is: If I go to the gym sporadically, but maintain a good level of activity with climbing days out, indoor walls, and other stuff, I can get back into gym lifts pretty quickly - I don't progress nor get near PBs without more regularity, but I regain previous norms well with just a bit more regularity.

My current experience is: That ain't happening.

But...

If you're using a high volume of low intensity exercise to try and maintain your mental health, is that not mutually exclusive from doing exercise that would gain/maintain strength? Maybe you can't both have your cake and eat it?

If low intensity exercise was the best and only way to manage my mental health then (personally) I'd accept the strength decline as a battle which needs to be lost in order to win the war.
This might be the nub of the issue. I think the HVLI is essential for my physical health too given my issues, based on previous experiences. But I think there's a good point there, if, as per the consensus of this thread, it's a 3 way strength decline + rebound decline + quick recovery decline (3 times quicker than I expected from just the strength decline - ofc assuming there's no post-Bangface post-viral issues I've missed), then maybe I've got to pick what I want to do best in. Do I want to claw back a 160kg DL at the expense of Depot Red circuits, or do I want to keep fairly fluid on Depot Red circuits, knowing that doesn't allow me enough recovery time to get DL strength back?? :devangel:


P.S. MrJR : One thing I will be sacrificing and cutting out is high volume high intensity high regularity Lancs cleaning, yes. There was a clear cut issue with fatigue from that over summer and I have learnt from that mistake.


P.S. Thanks to everyone treating this question respectfully and giving me useful answers here and on messages. I'm getting a bit more of an idea what could be going on.
 
I mean, what do you need this strength for anyway? Bouldering? Bouldering is fucking bullshit. Routes? You don't need to be that strong to do the crux of most routes in your future oeuvre (stuff like Metal Guru can get straight in the bin).
 
petejh said:
mrjonathanr said:
Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.

I did, out of curiosity. Not sure I'd recommend it. The programme (and general tone) in his book seems aimed towards a stereotype of a 50-something overweight senior manager in banking, who's never been particularly interested in physical challenge. I read it with a sense of 'these are not my people'. However the fundamentals seem pretty legit and I think are worth trying to adopt. I'm particularly interested in the claims about the relationship between fasting, heavy weights, intensity and hormones - I alluded to this in the thread about knee injuries on here a while back (also started by Fiend...). I've read various of the studies linked in Robert's book. It doesn't appear super-convincing that they show strong evidence for what the claims, not that I'm any expert, and imo his language makes the science sound a lot more settled than it is. But there does appear to be something there. Have also read studies that contradict his claims. The problem with most of the studies is small scale, and they're never quite testing for MY specific circumstances! Trying by doing.. do what feels good nd seems to work, beware of harmful side effects. Seems the best way.

Yes, that sounds sensible. I recall the knee thread. Might try a one day a week short sharp weights session after fasting and see how that goes. It put me in mind of Jerry describing how he’d eat nothing till midday then get on his garage board to try projects. I wonder if that had a similar effect.
 
OMM, by callisthenics do you mean the ring/ bar stuff illustrated, or something else? I’ve been trying to evolve my yoga routine into something more flowy and targeting strength and mobility.
 
Johnny Brown said:
OMM, by callisthenics do you mean the ring/ bar stuff illustrated, or something else? I’ve been trying to evolve my yoga routine into something more flowy and targeting strength and mobility.

Rings and bar at the moment. I’m looking at more floor based exercise over the next three months, but not settled on a plan yet. I am now beginning to have mobility/flexibility issues, probably due to driving a desk too much. Oh, I live on the 14th floor and have started walking up at the end of the day. Well, most days.
 
I don't have anything useful to add, but anecdotically and subjectively I did not loose strength in my mid 40s. I lost strength-speed, as fully expected, but age related strenght loss did not happen. n = n+1
 
mrjonathanr said:
petejh said:
mrjonathanr said:
Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.

I did, out of curiosity. Not sure I'd recommend it. The programme (and general tone) in his book seems aimed towards a stereotype of a 50-something overweight senior manager in banking, who's never been particularly interested in physical challenge. I read it with a sense of 'these are not my people'. However the fundamentals seem pretty legit and I think are worth trying to adopt. I'm particularly interested in the claims about the relationship between fasting, heavy weights, intensity and hormones - I alluded to this in the thread about knee injuries on here a while back (also started by Fiend...). I've read various of the studies linked in Robert's book. It doesn't appear super-convincing that they show strong evidence for what the claims, not that I'm any expert, and imo his language makes the science sound a lot more settled than it is. But there does appear to be something there. Have also read studies that contradict his claims. The problem with most of the studies is small scale, and they're never quite testing for MY specific circumstances! Trying by doing.. do what feels good nd seems to work, beware of harmful side effects. Seems the best way.

Yes, that sounds sensible. I recall the knee thread. Might try a one day a week short sharp weights session after fasting and see how that goes. It put me in mind of Jerry describing how he’d eat nothing till midday then get on his garage board to try projects. I wonder if that had a similar effect.

I'd be interested in the outcomes of this - maybe worth a thread split? I'm now 40.75years old, so just scraping into the bottom end of the category and actually strength is ok just now (don't want to hijack this thread), but weight has crept up a bit and I basically seem to tank my metabolism if I don't eat enough (appetite drops, but I also get cranky, sleep badly, lose motivation).It seems like my natural bf% settles out at the higher end, probably in the >15% range. I'm looking for ways of being able to lose a few KG, while keeping everything else firing ok. I've been dabbling a little with a kind of high/low int fasting diet. (described as "Lean Gainz" on reddit ::) ) where you aim to eat a little more than maintenance on training days, and a little under on rest days. So far it's not having much effect :lol:

Edited to add - I have noticed, a bit like OMM, that I can still easily punch out massive days - in the dolomites earlier this year we did a 200m 7a, followed by then a 600m 7b+ the following day, and I'd say at the end of the day I was still going pretty strong. However, the next day I was totally destroyed, and didn't really fully recover for about 3-4 weeks after I got home. Whereas, when I was younger I could go out and do a winter day and be totally wrecked at the end, be tired the next day but back to full power the day after. Maybe we just get better a suffering when we get older and can then tap into deep reserves that are less accessible when young, but this really drain us?
 
This is what I played around with (still am in theory.. haven't over xmas):

petejh said:
the idea is you have a feeding window of 8hrs, then a 'fast' for 16hrs, followed by workout, followed by a day of 800 calories, then back to normal.

During the '8hr window' I was eating a normal # of calories.
Next day, I did the workout before eating. My workout is at home using kettlebells, weighted pullups, deadlift, weighted press-ups, squat, shoulder press. So alternating muscle groups. I tried to make it heavy'ish (for me) except the squat due to injured knee. 8 reps max and intense - with 0 rest between one compound exercise and another, then rest between sets. Short workout of around 30-40mins. I was just trying to (in theory..) stimulate HGH/testosterone release.
Then breakfast lunch dinner = 800 calories.

I did it once per week for few weeks.

There seems to be no clear answer that I could find on which is theoretically best out of:
8hr 'eating window', 16hr fast, then eat before workout, then normal eating (or limited calories day).
8hr eating window, 16hr fast, then workout before eating, then normal eating (or limited calories day).

Would be interested to hear others' experience.
 
As others have effectively said, a lot of this is surely about baselines. I was probably physically strongest in my 40s because I had a steep old school board at home and used it a lot. I climbed much harder through my mid-20s to late-30s but without any meaningful training, just a lot of climbing. I was objectively weak on a lot of measures. So purely anecdotal, but strength gains are certainly possible in your 40s (especially for the previously under-trained). In terms of diet I’d already been vegan 15 years by the time I entered my 40s.
 


Write your reply...

Latest posts

Back
Top