[SA Chris]

can you only vote on grade if you've done it?

Looks like 87 people have logged it, but only 10 gave an opinion on grade? Is that the norm, never really looked at UKC stats before.

Totally guessing, but that's probably a pretty typical ratio.

Crescent Arete has about 1800 logs and 170 votes on difficulty.

HVS when I first did it (gramophone grandad).

[User deactivated.]

I dont think ive seen a single problem on ukc that's undisputed at the grade with sufficient grade votes (lets say more than 10).

Got one. Layby Arete. Benchmark 7B+.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/slipstones-549/lay-by_arete-39361

Well done, though I expect i'd find it harder than 'benchmark' 7B+ underhand and therefore might give it 7C  I'll have to go try.

[36chambers]

I dont think ive seen a single problem on ukc that's undisputed at the grade with sufficient grade votes (lets say more than 10).

and you shouldn't really expect to, unless everyone was built the same

This reminds me of an quote in a Font guide about two well known climbers, of different sizes, where one says something like "we don't compare ourselves, because we never do the same moves."

[sdm]

In my limited experience, benchmarks have often been really weird. Golden Arete was suggested to me to be benchmark 6B+ but I thought it was harder than Steep Traverse which is benchmark 6C and Mermaid is supposedly benchmark 7A but I did it way quicker than a couple of lime 7As that are suggested to be soft.

Surely Steep Traverse isn't being suggested as a benchmark? It's never seen anything close to 6C!

[Wellsy]

In my limited experience, benchmarks have often been really weird. Golden Arete was suggested to me to be benchmark 6B+ but I thought it was harder than Steep Traverse which is benchmark 6C and Mermaid is supposedly benchmark 7A but I did it way quicker than a couple of lime 7As that are suggested to be soft.

Surely Steep Traverse isn't being suggested as a benchmark? It's never seen anything close to 6C!

That was what I heard! I dunno I've done a decent amount of 6Cs now and it felt about right to me. 

[Duncan campbell]

More votes as soft than middle of the grade on ukc, but only just, which having spoken to Alan about these things, he says that soft routes often get voted solid by people who do them as their first of the grade.

I have definitely been guilty of this in the past.

Also surprised to see it gets 3 stars and confirmed at this… The climbing isn’t that good is it? And it’s a dabby traverse… 

Edit: sorry if this sounds like a witch hunt against your opinion you felt it was benchmark wellsy, just realised it might come across as such and wasn’t my intention. Stuck in a cabin in the rain bored at work…

[crimpinainteasy]

In my limited experience, benchmarks have often been really weird. Golden Arete was suggested to me to be benchmark 6B+ but I thought it was harder than Steep Traverse which is benchmark 6C and Mermaid is supposedly benchmark 7A but I did it way quicker than a couple of lime 7As that are suggested to be soft.

These days I live and die by the guidebook grade, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but at least you get a degree of consistency.

Grades are only a rough indication of difficulty at best. I've had plenty of supposedly soft problems which have felt hard for the grade for me personally, and equally, I've pathed some apparent sandbags.

[Wellsy]

More votes as soft than middle of the grade on ukc, but only just, which having spoken to Alan about these things, he says that soft routes often get voted solid by people who do them as their first of the grade.

I have definitely been guilty of this in the past.

Also surprised to see it gets 3 stars and confirmed at this… The climbing isn’t that good is it? And it’s a dabby traverse… 

Edit: sorry if this sounds like a witch hunt against your opinion you felt it was benchmark wellsy, just realised it might come across as such and wasn’t my intention. Stuck in a cabin in the rain bored at work…

Ah no its fine, tbh I do agree that it's not worth 3 stars cos of the dabbing (if it wasn't for the blocks under it I think it would be 3 stars though, I thought the moves were way cool, in my limited experience).

I don't think it's hard at 6C, steady moves, no real crux, nice holds etc,  but I think it probably is 6C for me, personally. Not that it matters much. I don't think it's a "benchmark" necessarily, whatever that is. I bet loads of people do it as their first one too.

[Droyd]

I think Steep Traverse can be held up as a pretty good exemplar of a specific phenomenon whereby a problem that used to be relatively unpopular and was considered to be soft and not especially good ends up being massively popular and ‘classic’ because of a combination of being:

At a popular, quick-drying crag (so more people get on it in the first place - so not really all that relevant as it’s true of anything, but without that things just don’t get popular even if they’re soft/amazing/whatever).

Extremely workable (generally by dint of being a bum-dragging traverse) in terms of it being possible to pull on and try every move, making it easier to project and eventually get up than a straight-up problem that you have to ground-up/stack pads to pull onto higher up/crack the rope out for.

Not needing many pads (cf. bumdrag point), again making it easier to both work and do.

Steep, which suits a) modern skillsets in terms of just grabbing some massive holds and then figuring out what to do with the feet, as compared to starting by figuring out how on earth to hold some godawful sloper/split-finger crimp in order to even pull on, and b) modern taste in terms of allowing you to swing around like an ape (in terms of both what we do indoors/enjoy doing and what is ‘cool’ to watch/show yourself doing).

A bit soft (also not having a go at Wellsy, but going off consensus UKC voting - personally I agree with 6C), meaning that lots of people get up it and then engage in the voting behaviour Duncan mentions, which I suspect is a large part of modern grade inflation.

Easy to film in terms of there being a nice rock to prop your phone on or whatever, which means a) more videos around for people to see, leading to more people going and doing it and b) the beta being easily accessible, maximising how many people get up it.

Not (too) morpho, so a pretty representative percentage of the population can get up it (again leads to more people doing it, more videos…).

Other grit honeypot examples include that terrible roof nearest the parking at Burbage North, Late Junction, Mark's Roof LH (soft if you take 7A, which loads seem to), Zippy's, Truffle Pig (not steep but bonus points for lack of clarity regarding being a sitter and an eliminate), Cave Problem at RHS (same), Green Traverse (sequence ), Kidneystone (correct start ). Compare these to things that relatively few people do but are considered to be classics like Breadline, Life in a Radioactive Dustbin, Art of White Hat Wearing, Big Al Qaeda, and Gritstone Megamix - all of which meet very few of my criteria except for the fact that they’re quick-drying and at popular crags. Even in the context of upper sixes at Planation I reckon there are loads of better ones than Steep Traverse - Bunny Wailer, Crescent Arete RH, NTBTA - they just don’t meet those criteria.

I think this also explains a general trend of people finding Mermaid, which meets most of my criteria, quite soft and Golden Arete, which only meets a few and is properly knacky (and if you don't figure out the knack you don't get off the ground) hard, which means fewer people doing it and so fewer videos…

[Wellsy]

I'd agree with pretty much all of that.

Marks Roof LH is easier than Steep Traverse imo. That it got 7A is madness and 6C+ is definitely pushing it as is.

[Fiend]

I think Steep Traverse can be held up as a pretty good exemplar of a specific phenomenon whereby a problem that used to be relatively unpopular and was considered to be soft and not especially good ends up being massively popular and ‘classic’ because of a combination of being:

TD,DR: #lndnclmbr



At a popular, quick-drying crag (so more people get on it in the first place - so not really all that relevant as it’s true of anything, but without that things just don’t get popular even if they’re soft/amazing/whatever).

Extremely workable (generally by dint of being a bum-dragging traverse) in terms of it being possible to pull on and try every move, making it easier to project and eventually get up than a straight-up problem that you have to ground-up/stack pads to pull onto higher up/crack the rope out for.

Not needing many pads (cf. bumdrag point), again making it easier to both work and do.

Steep, which suits a) modern skillsets in terms of just grabbing some massive holds and then figuring out what to do with the feet, as compared to starting by figuring out how on earth to hold some godawful sloper/split-finger crimp in order to even pull on, and b) modern taste in terms of allowing you to swing around like an ape (in terms of both what we do indoors/enjoy doing and what is ‘cool’ to watch/show yourself doing).

A bit soft (also not having a go at Wellsy, but going off consensus UKC voting - personally I agree with 6C), meaning that lots of people get up it and then engage in the voting behaviour Duncan mentions, which I suspect is a large part of modern grade inflation.

Easy to film in terms of there being a nice rock to prop your phone on or whatever, which means a) more videos around for people to see, leading to more people going and doing it and b) the beta being easily accessible, maximising how many people get up it.

Not (too) morpho, so a pretty representative percentage of the population can get up it (again leads to more people doing it, more videos…).

Other grit honeypot examples include that terrible roof nearest the parking at Burbage North, Late Junction, Mark's Roof LH (soft if you take 7A, which loads seem to), Zippy's, Truffle Pig (not steep but bonus points for lack of clarity regarding being a sitter and an eliminate), Cave Problem at RHS (same), Green Traverse (sequence ), Kidneystone (correct start ). Compare these to things that relatively few people do but are considered to be classics like Breadline, Life in a Radioactive Dustbin, Art of White Hat Wearing, Big Al Qaeda, and Gritstone Megamix - all of which meet very few of my criteria except for the fact that they’re quick-drying and at popular crags. Even in the context of upper sixes at Planation I reckon there are loads of better ones than Steep Traverse - Bunny Wailer, Crescent Arete RH, NTBTA - they just don’t meet those criteria.

I think this also explains a general trend of people finding Mermaid, which meets most of my criteria, quite soft and Golden Arete, which only meets a few and is properly knacky (and if you don't figure out the knack you don't get off the ground) hard, which means fewer people doing it and so fewer videos…

[Wellsy]

Climbing at a popular crag, on a popular problem! Can't imagine anything more reprehensible to be honest. Especially if one is from *spits * over there

[sdm]

I'd agree with pretty much all of that.

Marks Roof LH is easier than Steep Traverse imo. That it got 7A is madness and 6C+ is definitely pushing it as is.

Before I replied about Steep Traverse, I tried to think of another steep problem in that grade range that is as soft as Steep Traverse. The only contender that I managed to come up with was Mark's Roof LH.

[harrison]

Other grit honeypot examples include that terrible roof nearest the parking at Burbage North, Late Junction, Mark's Roof LH (soft if you take 7A, which loads seem to), Zippy's, Truffle Pig (not steep but bonus points for lack of clarity regarding being a sitter and an eliminate)

What is the deal with Truffle Pig, was the FA done with smears only or something? If you use the crack for your feet, I'd say ~6A personally (sequence wise I did it pretty much exactly like this https://www.instagram.com/p/Ck-zNjDDse9/ ).

I agree with the dodgy voting patterns for climbs that are people's first climb of the grade. In a database where you can vote, it would make sense to not be able to vote until you have done 5 or 10 of a certain grade.

Or really we should use a X is harder/easier than Y comparison based system instead of trying to give a specific grade - which humans are not good at - and then set some specific problems as benchmarks and plot grades for the rest. And we could see patterns in voting against height and ape to pick out morpho boulders. Would be cool to do with enough data, but without lots of participants it wouldn't work and would take forever to generate grades.

I also think many voters do not understand the premise of the grading scale when you see comments like 'I think X bouldering grade because it has a bad landing'.

I always took the term benchmark to mean a defining standard for the grade, but I think people use it interchangeably with 'testpiece' however, which really means nails for the grade, but because its a 'testpiece' you're not allowed to voice any opinions about downgrading it.

I think the moonboard has also contributed to a generation of climbers thinking benchmark means totally sandbagged.

[Wellsy]

I'd agree with pretty much all of that.

Marks Roof LH is easier than Steep Traverse imo. That it got 7A is madness and 6C+ is definitely pushing it as is.

Before I replied about Steep Traverse, I tried to think of another steep problem in that grade range that is as soft as Steep Traverse. The only contender that I managed to come up with was Mark's Roof LH.

I know what you mean. Similarly though is Razor Roof soft? Cos I did that way quicker than Steep Traverse. The glorious clean soaring line of Pock Sit? Same.

I dunno what my point is at this stage. I liked Steep Traverse though. I put myself doing it on Instagram! Didn't use the green tick mind you, in my defence.

[edshakey]

Didn't use the green tick mind you, in my defence.

Wonder if the Shawn Rabatou ˢᵐᵃˡˡ ᵍʳᵃᵈᵉˢ are the next green tick.

[Duncan campbell]

Does he think that putting the grade small will stop Bosi and Aiden pissing it!?!? Bosi has glasses to correct his vision for this very sort of thing mate!!