[Will Hunt]

b) in my experience benchmarks are usually pretty flipping hard for their given grade!

Go on...
 

[Bradders]

b) in my experience benchmarks are usually pretty flipping hard for their given grade!

Go on...
 

Is this not a pretty well known thing?

[remus]

b) in my experience benchmarks are usually pretty flipping hard for their given grade!

Go on...
 

Is this not a pretty well known thing?

Benchmarks are meant to be something that represents the grade, no? So by definition surely they should sit in the middle of the grade.

[Bradders]

Well yes, but my point is they often don't. Three that spring to mind are Lager Lager Lager, Ben's Groove Sit and Zoo York. All variously referred to as benchmarks in guidebooks etc. but all rather difficult for their given grades.

[Will Hunt]

If it's hard for the grade it's not benchmark. Those problems you mention are seen as tough for the grade I think, so it's probably wrong to describe them as benchmarks (though maybe Lager is just very knacky and conditions dependent).

[andy moles]

I think there's some confusion with the term benchmark, while I agree it should mean something that is middle of the grade, I have seen it used quite a bit for things that are at the hard end of the grade. Or I'm mistaken, and it's just that willies are being waved.

[remus]

Grade inflation is another option. Things that were once benchmarks could drift upwards until they become relatively hard for the grade.

[User deactivated.]

Seems a pretty useless term to me. Are there any problems at all where everyone agrees on the grade?

For Zoo York I've seen opinions ranging from 7C+ to hard 8A+.

I dont think ive seen a single problem on ukc that's undisputed at the grade with sufficient grade votes (lets say more than 10).

[teestub]

I think there's some confusion with the term benchmark, while I agree it should mean something that is middle of the grade, I have seen it used quite a bit for things that are at the hard end of the grade. Or I'm mistaken, and it's just that willies are being waved.

I’ve always taken it to mean this, as in essentially the benchmark for the top of the grade, and anything harder would be a grade higher.

Whoever thinks ZY is 7C+ has smoked too much crack.

[Bradders]

If it's hard for the grade it's not benchmark. Those problems you mention are seen as tough for the grade I think, so it's probably wrong to describe them as benchmarks (though maybe Lager is just very knacky and conditions dependent).

Maybe I've set too much store by the YMC grit guides, but to quote from them so as to show I'm not going completely mad:

Zoo York Font 8a
The magnificent jutting arete....Perhaps the benchmark for Font 8a

Ben's Groove Font 7b
The classic problem of the wall.....The sitter is benchmark Font 7c+

Lager Lager Lager Font 7c
A total classic and benchmark Font 7c

[tim palmer]

I agree that if any of those problems were in any other country they would be at least one grade higher so guess they are bench marks as if you can climb them you can climb that grade anywhere

[moose]

Is there an effect due to "benchmarks" being problems that are among the first of the grade in an area?  There can be conservatism when establishing a new grade - it awaits a problem that is a substantial, appreciable by all, step-up from what went before. Later, the range of the grade is established - where it begins and ends - but those early "benchmarks" remain hard as their difficulty was what forced the recognition that a new grade was possible and substantially harder than what went before. [TLDR - see Scottish HVS]

[jwi]

Isn't a benchmark just a problem or route on which most climbers agree upon the grade? So something pretty stiff for the grade without being undergraded that is not excessively morpho, condition dependent or overly dependent on a weird trick? Otherwise, what would be the point?

[mrjonathanr]

I have always understood benchmark as an accurate example of the grade. Hence the name.

[El Mocho]

I agree that if any of those problems were in any other country they would be at least one grade higher so guess they are bench marks as if you can climb them you can climb that grade anywhere

We (aka a bunch of the folk in or around our house in Leeds in '98-2002) repeated them all around 2000, in the case of Lager and BG sitter prob within a few months of the FA. At the time we thought they were benchmark for the grade with the exception of Zoo, which I think got 7C+ at the time, and was considered hard for that!

This was the time when I started bouldering a lot more, before going to uni I hadn't climbed 8A, and we were all operating around these grades at the time. As they were some of the really great problems from that era and seen as benchmark to us I used them fairly consistently to compare other problems and grades. I'm not saying they are or are not benchmark (I've not done any of them for 20 years now), but to us at the time they were. It could be we were wrong/I remember incorrectly, it could be they were benchmark to us but were actually hard in reality or it could show a shift in grades over the last 20 years.

It's worth noting that JB consistently doesn't climb 8A except for 2 soft ones in the Peak he fluked up and he did Lager and Ben's but not Zoo so that's proof.

[Johnny Brown]

I don't remember having any kind of a handle on font grades at that time.

Isn't a benchmark just a problem or route on which most climbers agree upon the grade? So something pretty stiff for the grade without being undergraded that is not excessively morpho, condition dependent or overly dependent on a weird trick?

That's pretty much my interpretation (I've removed the bits that describe gritstone climbing).

A problem where you can safely claim the grade without being at risk of subsequent downgrading. Which is likely to put it above mid-grade.

It's worth noting that JB consistently doesn't climb 8A except for 2² soft ones in the Peak he fluked up

I fond the more time I spend at the crag the luckier I get.

[Bonjoy]

I take benchmark to pretty much mean undisputed at the grade (give or take the odd outlier opinion). Which is likely to mostly discount things near the top or bottom of a grade.
In practice though there have been various slippages over time, which have operated in both directions depending on where you are and what style of climbing is involved. Which I think accounts to an extent for why some benchmarks have migrated from being solid mid-grade fodder, to bulwarks against slippage at the edge of their grades.

[Duma]

I like the idea of bulwark problems/routes.

[jwi]

Many routes also gets harder with time. I went back to my old stomping grounds this summer and the warm-up route had lost two key holds. It was always very hard for 7a+ but now it was ridiculous. The locals (who climb the route at least once every session assured me that the difficulty had not changed....)

Also no one could convince me that the difficulty of the start of Femme Blanche/Femme Noire in Céüse is the same as the first time I did it. I am a lot stronger now and last summer I couldn't get up it.

[Wellsy]

In my limited experience, benchmarks have often been really weird. Golden Arete was suggested to me to be benchmark 6B+ but I thought it was harder than Steep Traverse which is benchmark 6C and Mermaid is supposedly benchmark 7A but I did it way quicker than a couple of lime 7As that are suggested to be soft.

These days I live and die by the guidebook grade, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but at least you get a degree of consistency.

[Will Hunt]

I take benchmark to pretty much mean undisputed at the grade (give or take the odd outlier opinion). Which is likely to mostly discount things near the top or bottom of a grade.

This is my take also.

I dont think ive seen a single problem on ukc that's undisputed at the grade with sufficient grade votes (lets say more than 10).

Got one. Layby Arete. Benchmark 7B+.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/slipstones-549/lay-by_arete-39361

[SA Chris]

can you only vote on grade if you've done it?

Looks like 87 people have logged it, but only 10 gave an opinion on grade? Is that the norm, never really looked at UKC stats before.

[andy moles]

No, all you need to vote on the grade is an account. Witness Burden of Dreams https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/lappnor-17691/burden_of_dreams-435486.

You also can't change your vote.

Apparently they're working on a system upgrade (no pun intended).

[joel182]

can you only vote on grade if you've done it?

Looks like 87 people have logged it, but only 10 gave an opinion on grade? Is that the norm, never really looked at UKC stats before.

Totally guessing, but that's probably a pretty typical ratio.

Crescent Arete has about 1800 logs and 170 votes on difficulty.

[Bradders]

No, all you need to vote on the grade is an account. Witness Burden of Dreams https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/lappnor-17691/burden_of_dreams-435486.

You also can't change your vote.

Apparently they're working on a system upgrade (no pun intended).

Dear me, that is a bit of a shambles isn't it.

[SA Chris]

can you only vote on grade if you've done it?

Looks like 87 people have logged it, but only 10 gave an opinion on grade? Is that the norm, never really looked at UKC stats before.

Totally guessing, but that's probably a pretty typical ratio.

Crescent Arete has about 1800 logs and 170 votes on difficulty.

HVS when I first did it (gramophone grandad).

[User deactivated.]

I dont think ive seen a single problem on ukc that's undisputed at the grade with sufficient grade votes (lets say more than 10).

Got one. Layby Arete. Benchmark 7B+.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/slipstones-549/lay-by_arete-39361

Well done, though I expect i'd find it harder than 'benchmark' 7B+ underhand and therefore might give it 7C  I'll have to go try.

[36chambers]

I dont think ive seen a single problem on ukc that's undisputed at the grade with sufficient grade votes (lets say more than 10).

and you shouldn't really expect to, unless everyone was built the same

This reminds me of an quote in a Font guide about two well known climbers, of different sizes, where one says something like "we don't compare ourselves, because we never do the same moves."

[sdm]

In my limited experience, benchmarks have often been really weird. Golden Arete was suggested to me to be benchmark 6B+ but I thought it was harder than Steep Traverse which is benchmark 6C and Mermaid is supposedly benchmark 7A but I did it way quicker than a couple of lime 7As that are suggested to be soft.

Surely Steep Traverse isn't being suggested as a benchmark? It's never seen anything close to 6C!

[Wellsy]

In my limited experience, benchmarks have often been really weird. Golden Arete was suggested to me to be benchmark 6B+ but I thought it was harder than Steep Traverse which is benchmark 6C and Mermaid is supposedly benchmark 7A but I did it way quicker than a couple of lime 7As that are suggested to be soft.

Surely Steep Traverse isn't being suggested as a benchmark? It's never seen anything close to 6C!

That was what I heard! I dunno I've done a decent amount of 6Cs now and it felt about right to me. 

[Duncan campbell]

More votes as soft than middle of the grade on ukc, but only just, which having spoken to Alan about these things, he says that soft routes often get voted solid by people who do them as their first of the grade.

I have definitely been guilty of this in the past.

Also surprised to see it gets 3 stars and confirmed at this… The climbing isn’t that good is it? And it’s a dabby traverse… 

Edit: sorry if this sounds like a witch hunt against your opinion you felt it was benchmark wellsy, just realised it might come across as such and wasn’t my intention. Stuck in a cabin in the rain bored at work…

[crimpinainteasy]

In my limited experience, benchmarks have often been really weird. Golden Arete was suggested to me to be benchmark 6B+ but I thought it was harder than Steep Traverse which is benchmark 6C and Mermaid is supposedly benchmark 7A but I did it way quicker than a couple of lime 7As that are suggested to be soft.

These days I live and die by the guidebook grade, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but at least you get a degree of consistency.

Grades are only a rough indication of difficulty at best. I've had plenty of supposedly soft problems which have felt hard for the grade for me personally, and equally, I've pathed some apparent sandbags.

[Wellsy]

More votes as soft than middle of the grade on ukc, but only just, which having spoken to Alan about these things, he says that soft routes often get voted solid by people who do them as their first of the grade.

I have definitely been guilty of this in the past.

Also surprised to see it gets 3 stars and confirmed at this… The climbing isn’t that good is it? And it’s a dabby traverse… 

Edit: sorry if this sounds like a witch hunt against your opinion you felt it was benchmark wellsy, just realised it might come across as such and wasn’t my intention. Stuck in a cabin in the rain bored at work…

Ah no its fine, tbh I do agree that it's not worth 3 stars cos of the dabbing (if it wasn't for the blocks under it I think it would be 3 stars though, I thought the moves were way cool, in my limited experience).

I don't think it's hard at 6C, steady moves, no real crux, nice holds etc,  but I think it probably is 6C for me, personally. Not that it matters much. I don't think it's a "benchmark" necessarily, whatever that is. I bet loads of people do it as their first one too.

[Droyd]

I think Steep Traverse can be held up as a pretty good exemplar of a specific phenomenon whereby a problem that used to be relatively unpopular and was considered to be soft and not especially good ends up being massively popular and ‘classic’ because of a combination of being:

At a popular, quick-drying crag (so more people get on it in the first place - so not really all that relevant as it’s true of anything, but without that things just don’t get popular even if they’re soft/amazing/whatever).

Extremely workable (generally by dint of being a bum-dragging traverse) in terms of it being possible to pull on and try every move, making it easier to project and eventually get up than a straight-up problem that you have to ground-up/stack pads to pull onto higher up/crack the rope out for.

Not needing many pads (cf. bumdrag point), again making it easier to both work and do.

Steep, which suits a) modern skillsets in terms of just grabbing some massive holds and then figuring out what to do with the feet, as compared to starting by figuring out how on earth to hold some godawful sloper/split-finger crimp in order to even pull on, and b) modern taste in terms of allowing you to swing around like an ape (in terms of both what we do indoors/enjoy doing and what is ‘cool’ to watch/show yourself doing).

A bit soft (also not having a go at Wellsy, but going off consensus UKC voting - personally I agree with 6C), meaning that lots of people get up it and then engage in the voting behaviour Duncan mentions, which I suspect is a large part of modern grade inflation.

Easy to film in terms of there being a nice rock to prop your phone on or whatever, which means a) more videos around for people to see, leading to more people going and doing it and b) the beta being easily accessible, maximising how many people get up it.

Not (too) morpho, so a pretty representative percentage of the population can get up it (again leads to more people doing it, more videos…).

Other grit honeypot examples include that terrible roof nearest the parking at Burbage North, Late Junction, Mark's Roof LH (soft if you take 7A, which loads seem to), Zippy's, Truffle Pig (not steep but bonus points for lack of clarity regarding being a sitter and an eliminate), Cave Problem at RHS (same), Green Traverse (sequence ), Kidneystone (correct start ). Compare these to things that relatively few people do but are considered to be classics like Breadline, Life in a Radioactive Dustbin, Art of White Hat Wearing, Big Al Qaeda, and Gritstone Megamix - all of which meet very few of my criteria except for the fact that they’re quick-drying and at popular crags. Even in the context of upper sixes at Planation I reckon there are loads of better ones than Steep Traverse - Bunny Wailer, Crescent Arete RH, NTBTA - they just don’t meet those criteria.

I think this also explains a general trend of people finding Mermaid, which meets most of my criteria, quite soft and Golden Arete, which only meets a few and is properly knacky (and if you don't figure out the knack you don't get off the ground) hard, which means fewer people doing it and so fewer videos…

[Wellsy]

I'd agree with pretty much all of that.

Marks Roof LH is easier than Steep Traverse imo. That it got 7A is madness and 6C+ is definitely pushing it as is.

[Fiend]

I think Steep Traverse can be held up as a pretty good exemplar of a specific phenomenon whereby a problem that used to be relatively unpopular and was considered to be soft and not especially good ends up being massively popular and ‘classic’ because of a combination of being:

TD,DR: #lndnclmbr



At a popular, quick-drying crag (so more people get on it in the first place - so not really all that relevant as it’s true of anything, but without that things just don’t get popular even if they’re soft/amazing/whatever).

Extremely workable (generally by dint of being a bum-dragging traverse) in terms of it being possible to pull on and try every move, making it easier to project and eventually get up than a straight-up problem that you have to ground-up/stack pads to pull onto higher up/crack the rope out for.

Not needing many pads (cf. bumdrag point), again making it easier to both work and do.

Steep, which suits a) modern skillsets in terms of just grabbing some massive holds and then figuring out what to do with the feet, as compared to starting by figuring out how on earth to hold some godawful sloper/split-finger crimp in order to even pull on, and b) modern taste in terms of allowing you to swing around like an ape (in terms of both what we do indoors/enjoy doing and what is ‘cool’ to watch/show yourself doing).

A bit soft (also not having a go at Wellsy, but going off consensus UKC voting - personally I agree with 6C), meaning that lots of people get up it and then engage in the voting behaviour Duncan mentions, which I suspect is a large part of modern grade inflation.

Easy to film in terms of there being a nice rock to prop your phone on or whatever, which means a) more videos around for people to see, leading to more people going and doing it and b) the beta being easily accessible, maximising how many people get up it.

Not (too) morpho, so a pretty representative percentage of the population can get up it (again leads to more people doing it, more videos…).

Other grit honeypot examples include that terrible roof nearest the parking at Burbage North, Late Junction, Mark's Roof LH (soft if you take 7A, which loads seem to), Zippy's, Truffle Pig (not steep but bonus points for lack of clarity regarding being a sitter and an eliminate), Cave Problem at RHS (same), Green Traverse (sequence ), Kidneystone (correct start ). Compare these to things that relatively few people do but are considered to be classics like Breadline, Life in a Radioactive Dustbin, Art of White Hat Wearing, Big Al Qaeda, and Gritstone Megamix - all of which meet very few of my criteria except for the fact that they’re quick-drying and at popular crags. Even in the context of upper sixes at Planation I reckon there are loads of better ones than Steep Traverse - Bunny Wailer, Crescent Arete RH, NTBTA - they just don’t meet those criteria.

I think this also explains a general trend of people finding Mermaid, which meets most of my criteria, quite soft and Golden Arete, which only meets a few and is properly knacky (and if you don't figure out the knack you don't get off the ground) hard, which means fewer people doing it and so fewer videos…

[Wellsy]

Climbing at a popular crag, on a popular problem! Can't imagine anything more reprehensible to be honest. Especially if one is from *spits * over there

[sdm]

I'd agree with pretty much all of that.

Marks Roof LH is easier than Steep Traverse imo. That it got 7A is madness and 6C+ is definitely pushing it as is.

Before I replied about Steep Traverse, I tried to think of another steep problem in that grade range that is as soft as Steep Traverse. The only contender that I managed to come up with was Mark's Roof LH.

[harrison]

Other grit honeypot examples include that terrible roof nearest the parking at Burbage North, Late Junction, Mark's Roof LH (soft if you take 7A, which loads seem to), Zippy's, Truffle Pig (not steep but bonus points for lack of clarity regarding being a sitter and an eliminate)

What is the deal with Truffle Pig, was the FA done with smears only or something? If you use the crack for your feet, I'd say ~6A personally (sequence wise I did it pretty much exactly like this https://www.instagram.com/p/Ck-zNjDDse9/ ).

I agree with the dodgy voting patterns for climbs that are people's first climb of the grade. In a database where you can vote, it would make sense to not be able to vote until you have done 5 or 10 of a certain grade.

Or really we should use a X is harder/easier than Y comparison based system instead of trying to give a specific grade - which humans are not good at - and then set some specific problems as benchmarks and plot grades for the rest. And we could see patterns in voting against height and ape to pick out morpho boulders. Would be cool to do with enough data, but without lots of participants it wouldn't work and would take forever to generate grades.

I also think many voters do not understand the premise of the grading scale when you see comments like 'I think X bouldering grade because it has a bad landing'.

I always took the term benchmark to mean a defining standard for the grade, but I think people use it interchangeably with 'testpiece' however, which really means nails for the grade, but because its a 'testpiece' you're not allowed to voice any opinions about downgrading it.

I think the moonboard has also contributed to a generation of climbers thinking benchmark means totally sandbagged.

[Wellsy]

I'd agree with pretty much all of that.

Marks Roof LH is easier than Steep Traverse imo. That it got 7A is madness and 6C+ is definitely pushing it as is.

Before I replied about Steep Traverse, I tried to think of another steep problem in that grade range that is as soft as Steep Traverse. The only contender that I managed to come up with was Mark's Roof LH.

I know what you mean. Similarly though is Razor Roof soft? Cos I did that way quicker than Steep Traverse. The glorious clean soaring line of Pock Sit? Same.

I dunno what my point is at this stage. I liked Steep Traverse though. I put myself doing it on Instagram! Didn't use the green tick mind you, in my defence.

[edshakey]

Didn't use the green tick mind you, in my defence.

Wonder if the Shawn Rabatou ˢᵐᵃˡˡ ᵍʳᵃᵈᵉˢ are the next green tick.

[Duncan campbell]

Does he think that putting the grade small will stop Bosi and Aiden pissing it!?!? Bosi has glasses to correct his vision for this very sort of thing mate!!