[shark]

I’ve got a treated 8.9mm (edelrid eco dry swift) and it’s been a bit too slick for comfort and worried there might be potential for this sort of thing

[Muenchener]

I've been using a Decathlon/Simond 8.9mm for a while, both with an older grigri 2 and now with the current grigri (3), and never noticed any odd behaviour. Haven't watched that video yet though.

[Johnny Brown]

It's probably the rope, yeah. They use lubricants akin to fabric softener in the weaving process, which makes the rope consistent and nice to handle but, if you read the instructions small print (particularly for low-stretch rope), it often states the rope should be washed before use to get rid of it. About twenty years ago I rigged an IRATA training room with lovely new supple Edelrid ropes, only to have to hurriedly rerig with something else as the trainees were suffering something known in the trade as uncontrolled descents.

[cheque]

I've been using a Decathlon/Simond 8.9mm for a while, both with an older grigri 2 and now with the current grigri (3), and never noticed any odd behaviour. Haven't watched that video yet though.

Unlike the situation (and subsequent tests) in the video you’ve probably been holding onto the brake side of the rope.

[remus]

I've been using a Decathlon/Simond 8.9mm for a while, both with an older grigri 2 and now with the current grigri (3), and never noticed any odd behaviour. Haven't watched that video yet though.

I use the same rope with a grigri 1. It's slippy when the rope is new but fine after a couple of days use to break the rope in (i.e. grinding a lot of dirt and shit in to it).

[Paul B]

I use the same rope with a grigri 1. It's slippy when the rope is new but fine after a couple of days use to break the rope in (i.e. grinding a lot of dirt and shit in to it).

Same. I did have it slip quite a bit in Kaly (where it was newly unwrapped) but in part that was due to belayer abuse (getting ready to feed a big loop of slack through using the thumb press, holding the dead end). I've never really liked my GG2.

[Muenchener]

Unlike the situation (and subsequent tests) in the video you’ve probably been holding onto the brake side of the rope.

Well, yes. Being a competent & responsible belayer, I only have my brake hand on the grigri when I'm actually giving out slack - and then I'm still holding the rope.

Still I find it interesting how not-foolproof the grigri is, with so many common and intuitive ways it can be used dangerously, yet in thirty years nobody has managed to come up with anything better.

[Johnny Brown]

Which alternatives have you tried? I don't sport climb enough to bother myself, and can get Petzl kit free, but I know lots of people who have switched to alternatives and swear by them.

[Paul B]

I still remain unconvinced that the GG has been bettered especially when you consider all of the other things you can do with it. We bought a Cinch which was great (and is a really good backup when ascending a fixed line as it self feeds) but did need a totally different technique and you couldn't just pass it to someone and expect they'd be familiar with it.

[Muenchener]

Which alternatives have you tried?

Megajul/Gigajul - all round horrible handling

Click Up - not used one myself but been belayed by people using them, who were both experienced belayers and experienced with this particular device. Constantly brutally short-roped.

Alpine Up - least bad assisted locker for half ropes, wouldn't use it over a grigri for singles

Revo - ok for safety with inexperienced belayers, useless for working routes because it only locks when actually fallen on

[Rocksteady]

My perception is that Gri Gri's get a lot of bad press, but I'm not sure whether more accidents are attributable to Gri Gris or normal belay plates.

I would have thought that the auto locking feature - albeit flawed etc - must prevent some accidents that otherwise would occur from using standard belay plates. Are there any stats anywhere?

[Will Hunt]

I still remain unconvinced that the GG has been bettered especially when you consider all of the other things you can do with it. We bought a Cinch which was great (and is a really good backup when ascending a fixed line as it self feeds) but did need a totally different technique and you couldn't just pass it to someone and expect they'd be familiar with it.

Other than you Cinch, what belay devices have you tried out to test your hypothesis?

[Muenchener]

My perception is that Gri Gri's get a lot of bad press, but I'm not sure whether more accidents are attributable to Gri Gris or normal belay plates.

I would have thought that the auto locking feature - albeit flawed etc - must prevent some accidents that otherwise would occur from using standard belay plates. Are there any stats anywhere?

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally convinced that the grigri is the best device currently on the market and a massive increase in safety over non-locking devices. But still far from perfect - see this and innumerable other discussions about ways to f*ck up using one

[petejh]

I’ve got a treated 8.9mm (edelrid eco dry swift) and it’s been a bit too slick for comfort and worried there might be potential for this sort of thing

Good vid. The key points I took from it where not the rope diameter - although this is important it's fairly obvious.

What isn't obvious, and apparently what screwed them up and led to a near v.nasty accident, were the 2 other factors:
1. the subtle difference in angles in the rope - climbers rope exiting vertically due to belayer standing directly underneath the first draw, versus exiting slightly angled when belayer standing away from first draw).
2. lightly holding the grigri while belaying - I've never belayed like he shows in the vid and I was a bit surprised his belayer did. It was this in combination with the vertical angle of rope that apparently contributed most to the near-accident.

Like Muenchener says the dead-rope hand should only ever be in contact with the body of the grigri when giving slack - even then it *really* shouldn't but IRL virtually everyone does to prevent short-roping. Good practise for the leader to clip at waist height as it limits needing to give slack.

[cheque]

Personally I can’t be bothered learning another locking belay device but I’m happy to be belayed by people using their own choice because I only climb with people who I trust.

I think that YouTube video illustrates the problem with people’s attitudes to GriGris- they’re acting like it’s a scandal that it doesn’t lock without human intervention with a skinny, shiny rope. You should of course always be taking the responsibility of belaying seriously enough to hold onto the fucking brake side of the rope regardless of the device you’re using and especially if your rope is the trickiest type to belay with.

[AndyP]

Personally I can’t be bothered learning another locking belay device but I’m happy to be belayed by people using their own choice because I only climb with people who I trust.

I think that YouTube video illustrates the problem with people’s attitudes to GriGris- they’re acting like it’s a scandal that it doesn’t lock without human intervention with a skinny, shiny rope. You should of course always be taking the responsibility of belaying seriously enough to hold onto the fucking brake side of the rope regardless of the device you’re using and especially if your rope is the trickiest type to belay with.

I don't think they were acting like it's a scandal. It seemed more like a reminder of the importance of good belay technique, and a useful explanation of how a combination of several common belay errors (some of which, like the angle of rope, are not always drilled home in 'belay classes') can easily lead to a very dangerous situation.

[danm]

I've had contact previously with the Youtuber in question. He's quite engaging and tends to come up with the correct conclusions, and isn't afraid to contact the experts to question his views before recording a new show.

This video shows nothing new though. The device requires tension in the rope to engage the cam, so if this tension isn't present or is low enough, you won't engage the braking assistance. What he does in the video is outline some of the ways of removing tension and causing issues.

Not holding the brake rope is the clear and obvious one. Without a firm grip you are relying on mass of rope and friction (which will be rather orientation and rope condition dependent) for tension on the brake side. In his case, this obviously was not enough. On the other hand, the slump and plummet fate of the climber with a shit belayer is also well known. A  good fall will tend to apply tension, but sitting on the rope or having a ton of friction so the belay feels little force can cause issues, but only if you are belaying poorly in the first place. That's why in our latest campaign we said "Brake hand low, don't let go" for all devices, even though the GriGri is one of the few devices where hand position is not that important. People need to learn good belay behaviours rather than focus too much on device performance and attributes.

Tl:dr: Grigris don't kill people, belayers do

[Paul B]

Other than you Cinch, what belay devices have you tried out to test your hypothesis?

Loads? I used to work in a gear shop (and in the wall where I saw plenty of lemming like behaviour).

[Will Hunt]

Other than you Cinch, what belay devices have you tried out to test your hypothesis?

Loads? I used to work in a gear shop (and in the wall where I saw plenty of lemming like behaviour).

Dare I say that you worked in a gear shop a long time ago? Probably before many of the alternatives were available. And the alternatives that you saw were messed about with in the shop, not at the crag?
When you worked at the wall you saw lots of people using said belay devices badly - so the problem isn't necessarily the device and might be more the use of those devices? Example: somebody up-thread mentions getting short-roped all the time by somebody using a Click-Up; one of my main sport partners uses one of these and I have never ever been short-roped by him. I also climb with someone occasionally who constantly short-ropes when using his GriGri.

I know you're a GriGri fundamentalist but some of the alternatives do now equal it in terms of performance if they're used properly.

Josh Ibbertson noticed that I was using a Birdie and asked how I was finding it. I said it was good and he replied that he was very happy with his and wouldn't go back to a GriGri. I did question whether he might be saying this because he got the device from his sponsor but he maintained that this didn't influence his opinion. Eder said the same I think.
 

Personally I think the GriGri and the Birdie are just about on a par. With the GriGri it is a bit harder to pay out slack; the Birdie is not as good when lowering. However, the Birdie feels nicer in the hand, hasn't got any plastic, and (most importantly) was about £10 cheaper when I bought it.

[petejh]

Why does a Birdie not having any plastic feature in your thinking?

[Will Hunt]

Why does a Birdie not having any plastic feature in your thinking?

It barely does, and then it's an aesthetic consideration as opposed to environmental. The Birdie looks nicer and feels nicer to me, but these are tie-breakers because who would allow aesthetics to decide their belay device?

[Paul B]

Dare I say that you worked in a gear shop a long time ago?

Yes, it's a while ago now.

Probably before many of the alternatives were available. And the alternatives that you saw were messed about with in the shop, not at the crag?

No. People have being trying to better the GG since day one. Click-ups, Edelrid Eddy, SRCs... there were plenty of options/pretenders including items we chose not to stock and even prototypes (e.g. the WC Revo).

I know you're a GriGri fundamentalist but some of the alternatives do now equal it in terms of performance if they're used properly.

Josh Ibbertson noticed that I was using a Birdie and asked how I was finding it. I said it was good and he replied that he was very happy with his and wouldn't go back to a GriGri. I did question whether he might be saying this because he got the device from his sponsor but he maintained that this didn't influence his opinion. Eder said the same I think.
 

Personally I think the GriGri and the Birdie are just about on a par. With the GriGri it is a bit harder to pay out slack; the Birdie is not as good when lowering. However, the Birdie feels nicer in the hand, hasn't got any plastic, and (most importantly) was about £10 cheaper when I bought it.

Having death-modified a GG1 as a youth to self-lead-belay (looking back at this I can't believe my Dad was OK with my borrowing the neighbours grinder and removing bits of a belay device), having used a GG as part of a hauling setup, to follow aid pitches, to lower out, whilst self-lead-belaying through the main roof at Kilnsey re-bolting stuff on old aid tat, above the sea/Verdon Gorge taking photos I've not come across a device that is as versatile. Fundamentally, for me at least, something that doesn't lower as well is a significant issue (and is why I dislike the GG2 I own as the handle is hateful); fancy it with a big bag hanging between your legs? It JustWorks^TM (even if Petzl suggest you don't do these things).

[shark]

However, the Birdie feels nicer in the hand

Even better than two in the bush?

[teestub]

Josh Ibbertson noticed that I was using a Birdie and asked how I was finding it.

Josh says hi

[mrjonathanr]

he trainees were suffering something known in the trade as uncontrolled descents.

Sounds embarrassing