[shark]

I’ve got a treated 8.9mm (edelrid eco dry swift) and it’s been a bit too slick for comfort and worried there might be potential for this sort of thing

[Muenchener]

I've been using a Decathlon/Simond 8.9mm for a while, both with an older grigri 2 and now with the current grigri (3), and never noticed any odd behaviour. Haven't watched that video yet though.

[Johnny Brown]

It's probably the rope, yeah. They use lubricants akin to fabric softener in the weaving process, which makes the rope consistent and nice to handle but, if you read the instructions small print (particularly for low-stretch rope), it often states the rope should be washed before use to get rid of it. About twenty years ago I rigged an IRATA training room with lovely new supple Edelrid ropes, only to have to hurriedly rerig with something else as the trainees were suffering something known in the trade as uncontrolled descents.

[cheque]

I've been using a Decathlon/Simond 8.9mm for a while, both with an older grigri 2 and now with the current grigri (3), and never noticed any odd behaviour. Haven't watched that video yet though.

Unlike the situation (and subsequent tests) in the video you’ve probably been holding onto the brake side of the rope.

[remus]

I've been using a Decathlon/Simond 8.9mm for a while, both with an older grigri 2 and now with the current grigri (3), and never noticed any odd behaviour. Haven't watched that video yet though.

I use the same rope with a grigri 1. It's slippy when the rope is new but fine after a couple of days use to break the rope in (i.e. grinding a lot of dirt and shit in to it).

[Paul B]

I use the same rope with a grigri 1. It's slippy when the rope is new but fine after a couple of days use to break the rope in (i.e. grinding a lot of dirt and shit in to it).

Same. I did have it slip quite a bit in Kaly (where it was newly unwrapped) but in part that was due to belayer abuse (getting ready to feed a big loop of slack through using the thumb press, holding the dead end). I've never really liked my GG2.

[Muenchener]

Unlike the situation (and subsequent tests) in the video you’ve probably been holding onto the brake side of the rope.

Well, yes. Being a competent & responsible belayer, I only have my brake hand on the grigri when I'm actually giving out slack - and then I'm still holding the rope.

Still I find it interesting how not-foolproof the grigri is, with so many common and intuitive ways it can be used dangerously, yet in thirty years nobody has managed to come up with anything better.

[Johnny Brown]

Which alternatives have you tried? I don't sport climb enough to bother myself, and can get Petzl kit free, but I know lots of people who have switched to alternatives and swear by them.

[Paul B]

I still remain unconvinced that the GG has been bettered especially when you consider all of the other things you can do with it. We bought a Cinch which was great (and is a really good backup when ascending a fixed line as it self feeds) but did need a totally different technique and you couldn't just pass it to someone and expect they'd be familiar with it.

[Muenchener]

Which alternatives have you tried?

Megajul/Gigajul - all round horrible handling

Click Up - not used one myself but been belayed by people using them, who were both experienced belayers and experienced with this particular device. Constantly brutally short-roped.

Alpine Up - least bad assisted locker for half ropes, wouldn't use it over a grigri for singles

Revo - ok for safety with inexperienced belayers, useless for working routes because it only locks when actually fallen on

[Rocksteady]

My perception is that Gri Gri's get a lot of bad press, but I'm not sure whether more accidents are attributable to Gri Gris or normal belay plates.

I would have thought that the auto locking feature - albeit flawed etc - must prevent some accidents that otherwise would occur from using standard belay plates. Are there any stats anywhere?

[Will Hunt]

I still remain unconvinced that the GG has been bettered especially when you consider all of the other things you can do with it. We bought a Cinch which was great (and is a really good backup when ascending a fixed line as it self feeds) but did need a totally different technique and you couldn't just pass it to someone and expect they'd be familiar with it.

Other than you Cinch, what belay devices have you tried out to test your hypothesis?

[Muenchener]

My perception is that Gri Gri's get a lot of bad press, but I'm not sure whether more accidents are attributable to Gri Gris or normal belay plates.

I would have thought that the auto locking feature - albeit flawed etc - must prevent some accidents that otherwise would occur from using standard belay plates. Are there any stats anywhere?

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally convinced that the grigri is the best device currently on the market and a massive increase in safety over non-locking devices. But still far from perfect - see this and innumerable other discussions about ways to f*ck up using one

[petejh]

I’ve got a treated 8.9mm (edelrid eco dry swift) and it’s been a bit too slick for comfort and worried there might be potential for this sort of thing

Good vid. The key points I took from it where not the rope diameter - although this is important it's fairly obvious.

What isn't obvious, and apparently what screwed them up and led to a near v.nasty accident, were the 2 other factors:
1. the subtle difference in angles in the rope - climbers rope exiting vertically due to belayer standing directly underneath the first draw, versus exiting slightly angled when belayer standing away from first draw).
2. lightly holding the grigri while belaying - I've never belayed like he shows in the vid and I was a bit surprised his belayer did. It was this in combination with the vertical angle of rope that apparently contributed most to the near-accident.

Like Muenchener says the dead-rope hand should only ever be in contact with the body of the grigri when giving slack - even then it *really* shouldn't but IRL virtually everyone does to prevent short-roping. Good practise for the leader to clip at waist height as it limits needing to give slack.

[cheque]

Personally I can’t be bothered learning another locking belay device but I’m happy to be belayed by people using their own choice because I only climb with people who I trust.

I think that YouTube video illustrates the problem with people’s attitudes to GriGris- they’re acting like it’s a scandal that it doesn’t lock without human intervention with a skinny, shiny rope. You should of course always be taking the responsibility of belaying seriously enough to hold onto the fucking brake side of the rope regardless of the device you’re using and especially if your rope is the trickiest type to belay with.

[AndyP]

Personally I can’t be bothered learning another locking belay device but I’m happy to be belayed by people using their own choice because I only climb with people who I trust.

I think that YouTube video illustrates the problem with people’s attitudes to GriGris- they’re acting like it’s a scandal that it doesn’t lock without human intervention with a skinny, shiny rope. You should of course always be taking the responsibility of belaying seriously enough to hold onto the fucking brake side of the rope regardless of the device you’re using and especially if your rope is the trickiest type to belay with.

I don't think they were acting like it's a scandal. It seemed more like a reminder of the importance of good belay technique, and a useful explanation of how a combination of several common belay errors (some of which, like the angle of rope, are not always drilled home in 'belay classes') can easily lead to a very dangerous situation.

[danm]

I've had contact previously with the Youtuber in question. He's quite engaging and tends to come up with the correct conclusions, and isn't afraid to contact the experts to question his views before recording a new show.

This video shows nothing new though. The device requires tension in the rope to engage the cam, so if this tension isn't present or is low enough, you won't engage the braking assistance. What he does in the video is outline some of the ways of removing tension and causing issues.

Not holding the brake rope is the clear and obvious one. Without a firm grip you are relying on mass of rope and friction (which will be rather orientation and rope condition dependent) for tension on the brake side. In his case, this obviously was not enough. On the other hand, the slump and plummet fate of the climber with a shit belayer is also well known. A  good fall will tend to apply tension, but sitting on the rope or having a ton of friction so the belay feels little force can cause issues, but only if you are belaying poorly in the first place. That's why in our latest campaign we said "Brake hand low, don't let go" for all devices, even though the GriGri is one of the few devices where hand position is not that important. People need to learn good belay behaviours rather than focus too much on device performance and attributes.

Tl:dr: Grigris don't kill people, belayers do

[Paul B]

Other than you Cinch, what belay devices have you tried out to test your hypothesis?

Loads? I used to work in a gear shop (and in the wall where I saw plenty of lemming like behaviour).

[Will Hunt]

Other than you Cinch, what belay devices have you tried out to test your hypothesis?

Loads? I used to work in a gear shop (and in the wall where I saw plenty of lemming like behaviour).

Dare I say that you worked in a gear shop a long time ago? Probably before many of the alternatives were available. And the alternatives that you saw were messed about with in the shop, not at the crag?
When you worked at the wall you saw lots of people using said belay devices badly - so the problem isn't necessarily the device and might be more the use of those devices? Example: somebody up-thread mentions getting short-roped all the time by somebody using a Click-Up; one of my main sport partners uses one of these and I have never ever been short-roped by him. I also climb with someone occasionally who constantly short-ropes when using his GriGri.

I know you're a GriGri fundamentalist but some of the alternatives do now equal it in terms of performance if they're used properly.

Josh Ibbertson noticed that I was using a Birdie and asked how I was finding it. I said it was good and he replied that he was very happy with his and wouldn't go back to a GriGri. I did question whether he might be saying this because he got the device from his sponsor but he maintained that this didn't influence his opinion. Eder said the same I think.
 

Personally I think the GriGri and the Birdie are just about on a par. With the GriGri it is a bit harder to pay out slack; the Birdie is not as good when lowering. However, the Birdie feels nicer in the hand, hasn't got any plastic, and (most importantly) was about £10 cheaper when I bought it.

[petejh]

Why does a Birdie not having any plastic feature in your thinking?

[Will Hunt]

Why does a Birdie not having any plastic feature in your thinking?

It barely does, and then it's an aesthetic consideration as opposed to environmental. The Birdie looks nicer and feels nicer to me, but these are tie-breakers because who would allow aesthetics to decide their belay device?

[Paul B]

Dare I say that you worked in a gear shop a long time ago?

Yes, it's a while ago now.

Probably before many of the alternatives were available. And the alternatives that you saw were messed about with in the shop, not at the crag?

No. People have being trying to better the GG since day one. Click-ups, Edelrid Eddy, SRCs... there were plenty of options/pretenders including items we chose not to stock and even prototypes (e.g. the WC Revo).

I know you're a GriGri fundamentalist but some of the alternatives do now equal it in terms of performance if they're used properly.

Josh Ibbertson noticed that I was using a Birdie and asked how I was finding it. I said it was good and he replied that he was very happy with his and wouldn't go back to a GriGri. I did question whether he might be saying this because he got the device from his sponsor but he maintained that this didn't influence his opinion. Eder said the same I think.
 

Personally I think the GriGri and the Birdie are just about on a par. With the GriGri it is a bit harder to pay out slack; the Birdie is not as good when lowering. However, the Birdie feels nicer in the hand, hasn't got any plastic, and (most importantly) was about £10 cheaper when I bought it.

Having death-modified a GG1 as a youth to self-lead-belay (looking back at this I can't believe my Dad was OK with my borrowing the neighbours grinder and removing bits of a belay device), having used a GG as part of a hauling setup, to follow aid pitches, to lower out, whilst self-lead-belaying through the main roof at Kilnsey re-bolting stuff on old aid tat, above the sea/Verdon Gorge taking photos I've not come across a device that is as versatile. Fundamentally, for me at least, something that doesn't lower as well is a significant issue (and is why I dislike the GG2 I own as the handle is hateful); fancy it with a big bag hanging between your legs? It JustWorks^TM (even if Petzl suggest you don't do these things).

[shark]

However, the Birdie feels nicer in the hand

Even better than two in the bush?

[teestub]

Josh Ibbertson noticed that I was using a Birdie and asked how I was finding it.

Josh says hi

[mrjonathanr]

he trainees were suffering something known in the trade as uncontrolled descents.

Sounds embarrassing

[mrjonathanr]

We bought a Cinch which was great (and is a really good backup when ascending a fixed line as it self feeds) but did need a totally different technique and you couldn't just pass it to someone and expect they'd be familiar with it.

This. I bought a new grigri after going sport climbing again and wondering how likely it was a partner unfamiliar with my Trango was going to drop me. Too likely, was my conclusion. Still love the Cinch tho

[Paul B]

You bought it off me I think?

[mrjonathanr]

Yes, I did Paul. It’s great, it’s just that I don’t want to die onsighting a sport route because my partner happens to be unfamiliar with the thing.  Pretty much everyone knows how a grigri works so… I bought one.

[Wood FT]

Tl:dr: Grigris don't kill people, belayers do

Guns don't kill people, GrisGris do, I'm a fucking GriGri and I might kill you!

[andy_e]

Did you hear that on a documentary on BBC2 Wood FT?

[mrjonathanr]

The device requires tension in the rope to engage the cam, so if this tension isn't present or is low enough, you won't engage the braking assistance.

I got dropped exactly this way, due to falling slowly because of friction, where I was out of sight and close to a bolt when I fell, by Peter Croft, of all people. He stopped me when I appeared round the roof. He thought I’d wanted slack.

Tl;dr Chris says hi.

Moral: treat it as a normal belay plate, with benefits. Hand on the brake rope at all times

[andy moles]

The part that I don't quite get regarding the friction aspect is: it makes sense that the cam does not engage initially if there's quite a bit of friction in the system, but there's never going to be so much friction that you don't still accelerate pretty fast in falling (otherwise you would have barely been able to move beforehand, and you'd be dropping so slowly it would be more like being lowered than falling.)

So as soon as your velocity is great enough to cause injury, isn't the rope going to be pulling through the device at a speed that should engage the cam regardless of friction?

Edit: thinking about this some more, I guess it's the more gradual acceleration isn't it...if friction is the factor causing slippage, rather than rope diameter or sheath condition (and having a hand on the rope of course), the cam will engage eventually, but perhaps not before you've hit the floor.

[danm]

The way I try and think about it Andy is that if all the rope is moving at the same speed, it doesn't really matter how fast it's going, the cam isn't going to engage.

[petejh]

I think it’s the rate of change. Like Dan says you could accelerate to a million mph but if the rate of change was below the ROC required to activate the cam, it wouldn’t activate.

[andy moles]

Interesting, thanks.

[Johnny Brown]

I don’t agree with that interpretation. The device works on friction between rope and cam. The faster the rope is moving the more potential it has to engage the cam, if it touches it. The problem is holding the rope and device, as in the video, where the rope isn’t touching the cam sufficiently. Acceleration does have a role, in that it is more likely to disturb the path of the rope out of a poor position, but it’s not acceleration that engages the cam, it’s friction. Hence why in the vid the cam does engage eventually.

Unlike drag in air or water, solid-on-solid friction does not simply increase with speed, so the critical thing is the quality of the contact between the rope and the cam. Hence why a slow pull will engage the cam if things are in contact, but a fast one may not. But we tend to get in the habit of trying to minimise the contact for clipping.

When I tested Shunts as used for fall arrest in shunting or rope access back up, we found the behaviour at low speed was not representative of that at falling speeds, where the device required a higher load to start slipping than it did to continue slipping. But grigris don’t slip once engaged in my experience.

[Moo]

That follows because standing friction is greater than moving ( kinetic ) friction between two objects, eg its easier to keep something moving than it is to get it it moving in the first place.

[danm]

I don’t agree with that interpretation. The device works on friction between rope and cam. The faster the rope is moving the more potential it has to engage the cam, if it touches it. The problem is holding the rope and device, as in the video, where the rope isn’t touching the cam sufficiently. Acceleration does have a role, in that it is more likely to disturb the path of the rope out of a poor position, but it’s not acceleration that engages the cam, it’s friction. Hence why in the vid the cam does engage eventually.

Unlike drag in air or water, solid-on-solid friction does not simply increase with speed, so the critical thing is the quality of the contact between the rope and the cam. Hence why a slow pull will engage the cam if things are in contact, but a fast one may not. But we tend to get in the habit of trying to minimise the contact for clipping.

When I tested Shunts as used for fall arrest in shunting or rope access back up, we found the behaviour at low speed was not representative of that at falling speeds, where the device required a higher load to start slipping than it did to continue slipping. But grigris don’t slip once engaged in my experience.

Can you quantify a quality of friction? No, me neither! The tension in the rope is required as it causes the rope to try and straighten its path, the frictional qualities of the rope and cam material then come into play to create a force which moves the cam. The reason a big fall tends to activate the cam more easily is not because the rope is moving at a higher velocity and therefore there is more friction, it because of inertia. One end of the rope is accelerating rapidly, one end is not, and tension will result. Greater accelerating equals more tension as F=ma. We could of course solve this argument by arranging an away day at Lyon to do some testing!

[crzylgs]

Just hold onto the rope that is attached to your friend/loved one/relatively unknown climbing partner.

[andy moles]

Just hold onto the rope

Yes, that is the bottom line here.

All the rest is academic if you've got a hand on the brake rope.

Though it's interesting to understand exactly how the Grigri works (or doesn't in particular circumstances). Especially because belaying a leader is not the only way the device is routinely used.

I realise my original question may be confusing because in all the references to 'friction' I'm talking about friction on the rope between the device and the climber, not friction between the rope and the device itself, which is evidently important.

[SamT]

"Keep a hand on the brake rope"

Yes, obv.. but isn't that the issue? (I certainly find it a problem), that its hard to quickly pay out slack without using the thumb on cam method, which entails not having your hand properly on the brake rope.

Now I have to admit, I didn't know about the fore finger under the lip method till now. I'm sure I'm pretty bad at short roping partners, as I don't like taking my hand off the brake rope (long trad upbringing).  If they needed a lot of slack quickly, I'd usually get one short rope snag, then take my hand off the brake rope, hold the whole grigri body, with thumb on cam, deliver slack, then quickly find brake rope again.     I genuinely really didn't feel comfortable at all when resorting to this.  Especially 2nd or 3rd bolt for instance. They'd be on the deck before you knew what had happened if the cam didn't catch instantly, plus there is no opportunity to reflex pull in that bit of slack.
I don't really do a mass of sport or indoor roped climbing, so perhaps this is why I've never really got on with my grigri. 

However, from now on, I'll be using the finger under the lip method and 3 fingers on brake rope. , but only for that moment they need quick slack.  I'd like to think that in 30 years of belaying people, I don't think I've ever dropped anyone and I have the learnt reflex action of holding a fall using the brake rope hand.

[mrjonathanr]

"Keep a hand on the brake rope"

However, from now on, I'll be using the finger under the lip method and 3 fingers on brake rope. , but only for that moment they need quick slack.

This method is easy when you get used to it and you never stop having 3 fingers safely holding the brake end. In the event of a fall you’d naturally put your forefinger round the rope too, given its stating position. Just needs a bit of practice.

[danm]

If I'm belaying with a GriGri (which I'll admit, these days isn't very often) I make sure I have clear floor space front and back, and I can usually manage to give enough slack without having to resort to disabling the cam by paying out slack normally and taking a big forward stride if necessary. You need to be an active belayer for this to work i.e full attention on the climber, moving around and getting the hands in the optimal position, anticipating the climber clipping etc, but that's the sort of behaviour that should be encouraged anyway. Unfortunately I think many accidents/near misses are essentially a result of people who treat belaying as a break between their own activity. I've been guilty myself of this in the past and it was the one time I nearly dropped my partner, which taught me a very valuable lesson.

[mrjonathanr]

I think many accidents/near misses are essentially a result of people who treat belaying as a break between their own activity.

This.

[andy moles]

"Keep a hand on the brake rope"

Yes, obv.. but isn't that the issue? (I certainly find it a problem), that its hard to quickly pay out slack without using the thumb on cam method, which entails not having your hand properly on the brake rope.

My technique for paying out slack quickly (with a GG2) is to pinch the device between thumb and forefinger, thumbing the tip of the cam nearest me, with the brake rope running so that I still have hold of it with my back three fingers. I think this is what Petzl recommends, and it feels reasonably robust to me.

What is meant by forefinger under the lip method?

Another method I've seen used is to have a firm grip further down the brake rope, so you've got a loop of slack to pay out from when thumbing the cam, which seems fine too if well practised.

[mrjonathanr]

This is what Petzl recommend.

[andy moles]

This is what Petzl recommend.

Gotcha. It may be I've slightly misinterpreted the Petzl diagram previously. Though forefinger under whole device feels like it does much the same job, maybe depends on the size of your hand a bit though.

[mrjonathanr]

I think the danger with the forefinger under device method is that under stress, we grab, and it’s possible to clamp the cam open in this position as thumb and finger are opposed.

A finger under the flange is offset from the thumb on an insecure feature to hold. It’s unlikely you’d exert enough force to keep the cam open in a fall this way.

[duncan]

Enjoyed the original video. Clear and entertaining like most of his work. Familiar issues to most here I would guess but it’s good to point out it is usually a combination of several factors that lead to problems. It is intuitive that a new, slick, thin rope is going to reduce the likelihood of locking but I hadn’t thought of the effect of rope drag.

I think the danger with the forefinger under device method is that under stress, we grab, and it’s possible to clamp the cam open in this position as thumb and finger are opposed.

A finger under the flange is offset from the thumb on an insecure feature to hold. It’s unlikely you’d exert enough force to keep the cam open in a fall this way.

I was going to post something similar but got distracted by the need to fix the fridge!

An instinctive panic grip whilst holding the whole grigri - fingers underneath, thumb on the cam - is a known mode of failure.

I had a quick play with a well-used grigri 3 and nearly new 9.2mm dry treated rope, a fairly slick combination. Holding the grigri with just one finger underneath and thumb on the cam, it still seemed possible a panic grip might defeat the cam. With the index finger hooked under the lip - the current Petzl recommendation - there is no way I can stop the cam locking against a sharp-ish tug.

I started with a sticht plate then tubes. Perhaps because of this I have been over-cautious belaying with a grigri and tended to short-rope people. It took me a few sessions to learn the finger-under-the-lip technique with current model grigri but I’m now much slicker with it and it seems, on balance, the best of the devices I've used.

[andy moles]

I was belaying with a Grigri yesterday and adapted to the finger under lip position - not only lower risk of 'panic clamping', but actually more comfortable than finger under device as well. Can't believe I'd missed this being pointed out before.   

[James Malloch]

I was belaying with a Grigri yesterday and adapted to the finger under lip position - not only lower risk of 'panic clamping', but actually more comfortable than finger under device as well. Can't believe I'd missed this being pointed out before.   

Me too. Will take a few sessions to get used to it as the default method but it felt fine and no more difficulty than normal.