[crimpinainteasy]

So, is he implying that Terranova could actually have been the world's first 9A boulder?

And burden the first 9A+?

I noticed both of those suggestions too!

The sport/boulder grade thing is interesting. Will seems confused that 9A's like Alphane and Honey Badger ( ) have only taken him a couple of weeks to do, but routes from 9a+ to 9b+ have taken much longer. There are a few possible explanations:

1. Top end sport is harder than top end bouldering. I find this one hard to buy into since the talent pool for bouldering and sport climbing is similar and the training methods in each discipline are also both similarly advanced. Jakob waltzes up 9b+ routes but got shut down by Sleepwalker 8C+, so it's not all one way traffic of multi-disciplinary climbers having an easier time with top end bouldering.

2. Will is even better at bouldering than he is at sport climbing.

3. More time has passed since he transitioned to full time rock climbing, he is on particularly good form right now and happens to be focusing on bouldering. He mentions that he's going to visit Stefano to try Excalibur, which seems to be a candidate for 9c. If he does well then I think we can just crown Will the king of climbing and forget the other points above   

I wouldn't call Jakob not quite doing an 8C+ boulder on his 3rd session "getting shut down". That said I would agree that it appears Will is better at bouldering to than sport.

[AndyP]

"Gradewise I think it's bottom end 8c+.  I definitely think it's harder than forgotten gem 8c, but easier than Alphane and Honey Badger".

To me that sounds like he thinks Alphane is 8c+.....

[User deactivated.]

So, is he implying that Terranova could actually have been the world's first 9A boulder?

And burden the first 9A+?

I noticed both of those suggestions too!

The sport/boulder grade thing is interesting. Will seems confused that 9A's like Alphane and Honey Badger ( ) have only taken him a couple of weeks to do, but routes from 9a+ to 9b+ have taken much longer. There are a few possible explanations:

1. Top end sport is harder than top end bouldering. I find this one hard to buy into since the talent pool for bouldering and sport climbing is similar and the training methods in each discipline are also both similarly advanced. Jakob waltzes up 9b+ routes but got shut down by Sleepwalker 8C+, so it's not all one way traffic of multi-disciplinary climbers having an easier time with top end bouldering.

2. Will is even better at bouldering than he is at sport climbing.

3. More time has passed since he transitioned to full time rock climbing, he is on particularly good form right now and happens to be focusing on bouldering. He mentions that he's going to visit Stefano to try Excalibur, which seems to be a candidate for 9c. If he does well then I think we can just crown Will the king of climbing and forget the other points above   

I wouldn't call Jakob not quite doing an 8C+ boulder on his 3rd session "getting shut down". That said I would agree that it appears Will is better at bouldering to than sport.

Pffft. 8C+ only takes 2 days these days 

I take your point.

[User deactivated.]

"Gradewise I think it's bottom end 8c+.  I definitely think it's harder than forgotten gem 8c, but easier than Alphane and Honey Badger".

To me that sounds like he thinks Alphane is 8c+.....

Or that he's potentially the best boulderer in the world right now and doesnt know his own strength. 8C in half an hour, 8C+ in 2 days, 9A in c.10 days (+ specific training on a replica). Seems reasonable. Cant wait until he tries something that's actually hard for him!

[AndyP]

I think it could both be true that Alphane & Honey Badger are 9A, and that Bosi is on insane form and mistakenly thinks they are both 8c+.

[remus]

Amazing!! Could be the quickest ever send of an 8C+??

Seems likely. Some other contenders are Simon Lorenzi's Big Conviction (5 days, but links in to The Island which he had really dialed from doing Soudain) and Jimmy Webb on Creature from the Black Lagoon (6 days) and Carlo Traversi on the same (3 days). I think creature is in a link-up-y kinda roof though, so they might have spent time on the parts before?

There's a list to trawl through here if anyone has some time on their hands https://climbing-history.org/list/14/hard-boulder-problem-ascents

[crimpinainteasy]

It would be interesting to know how the hardest boulders compare to the hardest routes. The Grand Illusion is now a consensus 8C+ boulder and Sean Bailey thought it was comparable to a 9a+/b route.

[remus]

It would be interesting to know how the hardest boulders compare to the hardest routes. The Grand Illusion is now a consensus 8C+ boulder and Sean Bailey thought it was comparable to a 9a+/b route.

He must be wrong, darth grader says hard 9b 

[jwi]

It would be interesting to know how the hardest boulders compare to the hardest routes. The Grand Illusion is now a consensus 8C+ boulder and Sean Bailey thought it was comparable to a 9a+/b route.

He must be wrong, darth grader says hard 9b 

(Darth grader used very harsh boulder grades on the cruxes of routes to fit the model, imho.)

[Bradders]

Surely the fact it's had lots (7? 8?) of ascents, with everyone agreeing it's 8C+, is an indication that the grade is correct and has achieved a clear consensus?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I'm not getting the joke here, what's so funny?

[MischaHY]

Surely the fact it's had lots (7? 8?) of ascents, with everyone agreeing it's 8C+, is an indication that the grade is correct and has achieved a clear consensus?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I'm not getting the joke here, what's so funny?

The one truth was the G and without his mysterious displays of 5am power we are all lost and at the mercy of grading consensus, forever to be taunted by the shadowplay. Maniacal laughter is all that remains 

(I also don't get it but it's UKB so Pain au Chocolat)

[abarro81]

It would be interesting to know how the hardest boulders compare to the hardest routes. The Grand Illusion is now a consensus 8C+ boulder and Sean Bailey thought it was comparable to a 9a+/b route.

He must be wrong, darth grader says hard 9b 

You forgot the not-on-a-rope grade adjustment, which is required to make things fit (genuinely)

[jwi]

It would be interesting to know how the hardest boulders compare to the hardest routes. The Grand Illusion is now a consensus 8C+ boulder and Sean Bailey thought it was comparable to a 9a+/b route.

He must be wrong, darth grader says hard 9b 

You forgot the not-on-a-rope grade adjustment, which is required to make things fit (genuinely)

For sure. I agree on this. (And it is surprising that seemingly only beginners know that there is a difference between what one can do on a toprope versus on lead! It is so much easier to climb when one does not has to stop in the middle of sequences to fiddle with the rope ... I rediscovered this when I went back to my hometown where all the routes in the gym are graded for toprope, and they all felt exactly one letter grade harder than normal.)

From my vague memory the description of the routes in this document
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GR5O_9V3yJFU-nn295y0ImuoTl8lJazX/view  (last page)
which was used to fit the model looked pretty harsh; but now when I re-read it I find that I agree on the breakdown on the routes I am familiar with.

[lukeyboy]

Surely the fact it's had lots (7? 8?) of ascents, with everyone agreeing it's 8C+, is an indication that the grade is correct and has achieved a clear consensus?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I'm not getting the joke here, what's so funny?

My reading is that if everyone has done this 8C+, far more than any other, then it's probably soft. Like the most repeated routes at any crag. I agree BTW, it was exactly my thought when I read that.

Please feel free to correct if I've misinterpreted.

[crimpinainteasy]

It would be interesting to know how the hardest boulders compare to the hardest routes. The Grand Illusion is now a consensus 8C+ boulder and Sean Bailey thought it was comparable to a 9a+/b route.

He must be wrong, darth grader says hard 9b 

You forgot the not-on-a-rope grade adjustment, which is required to make things fit (genuinely)

For sure. I agree on this. (And it is surprising that seemingly only beginners know that there is a difference between what one can do on a toprope versus on lead! It is so much easier to climb when one does not has to stop in the middle of sequences to fiddle with the rope ... I rediscovered this when I went back to my hometown where all the routes in the gym are graded for toprope, and they all felt exactly one letter grade harder than normal.)

From my vague memory the description of the routes in this document
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GR5O_9V3yJFU-nn295y0ImuoTl8lJazX/view  (last page)
which was used to fit the model looked pretty harsh; but now when I re-read it I find that I agree on the breakdown on the routes I am familiar with.

True. I also find the difference is much starker between lead onsight and toprope insight Vs routes on redpoint go.

[Bradders]

Surely the fact it's had lots (7? 8?) of ascents, with everyone agreeing it's 8C+, is an indication that the grade is correct and has achieved a clear consensus?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I'm not getting the joke here, what's so funny?

My reading is that if everyone has done this 8C+, far more than any other, then it's probably soft. Like the most repeated routes at any crag. I agree BTW, it was exactly my thought when I read that.

Please feel free to correct if I've misinterpreted.

This makes no sense to me. To come back to my point about some problems being easier to do; Sleepwalker is in a desert where it hardly ever rains, is easily workable with a couple of pads, is the type of problem that rewards a persistent approach, and has easy access with a lengthy season of conditions.

If you're a climber in the US capable of climbing 8C+ (and there are a lot of them) then it's the obvious one to go for. So they do. None of that makes it 8C. Unless you think all those extraneous factors should be considered when grading things, which I don't.

[yetix]

Matt Fultz logged it as soft on 8a.nu, it's also many peoples first 8c+ so like bosi aidan etc on alphane they would struggle to comment surely?

Nalle struggled to span the sequence used by woods etc, so could have been harder for him?

But probs the most confirmed at its grade regardless of the above I think?

[lukeyboy]

Surely the fact it's had lots (7? 8?) of ascents, with everyone agreeing it's 8C+, is an indication that the grade is correct and has achieved a clear consensus?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I'm not getting the joke here, what's so funny?

My reading is that if everyone has done this 8C+, far more than any other, then it's probably soft. Like the most repeated routes at any crag. I agree BTW, it was exactly my thought when I read that.

Please feel free to correct if I've misinterpreted.

This makes no sense to me. To come back to my point about some problems being easier to do; Sleepwalker is in a desert where it hardly ever rains, is easily workable with a couple of pads, is the type of problem that rewards a persistent approach, and has easy access with a lengthy season of conditions.

If you're a climber in the US capable of climbing 8C+ (and there are a lot of them) then it's the obvious one to go for. So they do. None of that makes it 8C. Unless you think all those extraneous factors should be considered when grading things, which I don't.

Those are fair points. I'm also not saying it's 8C (I clearly have no idea).

The bit of the original post that I disagree with is the hypothesis that it being the most repeated of a grade makes it the most confirmed and hence benchmark. I think instead it probably just means it's the easiest to do - whether that's because of access, climate etc. as you've mentioned, or because it's soft for the grade - but either way the conclusion is similar.

[Bradders]

Yeah I get that, I think we're kind of saying similar things. I wasn't suggesting it's a benchmark though, as a) I've clearly no idea and b) in my experience benchmarks are usually pretty flipping hard for their given grade!

[remus]

Another day at the office with a flash of The Dagger and Dreamtime in the same day (and close on the flash according to his 8a.nu log!!)

[User deactivated.]

Absurd, but also unsurprising.

[remus]

Another day at the office with a flash of The Dagger and Dreamtime in the same day (and close on the flash according to his 8a.nu log!!)

Re-reading that it's not very clear. He flashed The Dagger, then got close to flashing Dreamtime but fell off after the crux. He did get Dreamtime done the same day though.

[Ross Barker]

If he had succeeded, would that have been the first 8C flash? Jade was flashed by Ondra, and Catalan Witness The Fitness was flashed by Schubert, but these are both considered 8B+ now.

[Bradders]

If he had succeeded, would that have been the first 8C flash? Jade was flashed by Ondra, and Catalan Witness The Fitness was flashed by Schubert, but these are both considered 8B+ now.

Yes think so.

I read Remus' post as that he'd flashed it! Surely only a matter of time.

[Fultonius]

I think ght dreamtime was now thought to be 8B+, or did that all get fixed again?