[User deactivated.]

Haha good tongue in cheek point made.

Will is really really good (obvs) and obvs very good at bouldering and sport climbing but is he an all rounder?

Dave Mac is the most obvious top all-rounder for me; 9a sport, 8B+ (is practice of the wild 8C?) Hardest trad head points in the country, probably also o/sed the odd E7, grade XII winter stuff + has done some hard multipitch stuff.

It's clearly Ondra for me. Sport, boulder, comp, crack and trad all at much higher levels than Dave, even if he hasn't climbed XII on the Ben... yet!

At the risk of descending into UKC style debate....I guess it depends on how you define hardest trad?  Do you more heavily weight difficulty over danger?  DMac has clearly done some of the hardest bold/serious trad in the world, whereas Ondra waltzed up the hardest big wall in world (but it's fairly safe).  Dave doesn't travel much, but I do wonder how he'd get on on something like the dawn wall. I was actually mega impressed Adam managed it with so little fuss - just goes to show what a few grades in hand does for you!

Don't get me wrong, I think Dave is great and rate him highly. I particularly liked the video he just released showing some of his recent winter ascents.

It's completely subjective whether danger or difficulty are more impressive. Danger is also relative to a climbers skill level; if I were to try and onsight E6 with limited trad experience it would be very dangerous! Whilst I find Ondra's ascent of the Dawn Wall more impressive than D.Mac's E11's, I rate Honnold's ascent of El Cap above his 9a sport climbs (but perhaps not as highly as Silence or Burden of Dreams...) I don't think there's any science here, it's just whatever takes your fancy, but I think Ondra would piss Echo Wall if he wanted to.

[abarro81]

As everyone's said, what counts as being an "all rounder" is in the eye of the beholder, presumably most people into alpinism or big walls would say that just being good at boulder/sport/trad/scottish winter didn't count as you need to be good at alpinism or big walling... People into onsighting would say you need to be good at onsighting... etc.

I guess in my head it makes sense to talk about all round climbing (where you probably need to climb cold snowy things but still also bosh out 9a) and all round "rock climbing", which lets you exclude snow/ice/winterneering but should probably cover boulder, sport (short and long routes, RP and OS), trad (RP and OS), multipitch sport, and multipitch trad.

[Duncan campbell]

Haha good tongue in cheek point made.

Will is really really good (obvs) and obvs very good at bouldering and sport climbing but is he an all rounder?

Dave Mac is the most obvious top all-rounder for me; 9a sport, 8B+ (is practice of the wild 8C?) Hardest trad head points in the country, probably also o/sed the odd E7, grade XII winter stuff + has done some hard multipitch stuff.

It's clearly Ondra for me. Sport, boulder, comp, crack and trad all at much higher levels than Dave, even if he hasn't climbed XII on the Ben... yet! 

Ah yeah - sorry was thinking Brits and true “all-rounder”.

Tbh quite a few contenders and some variety within that! If we wanted to go to trumps style we should probs do another thread.

I was more just contending that I didn’t think bouldering and sport climbing made an all-rounder. But maybe those + comps is the way all rounders are going? (Let’s hope not!)

[jwi]

Rock climbing is a lot harder than ice climbing, mixed climbing, adventurous hiking and aid climbing. Usually, the best rock climbers quickly raise to the top of every other form of climbing soon after trying it. (Didn't Midtbø flash the semi-final route in the world cup of ice climbing with running beta the first time he had axes in his hand or something? He would have timed out as he took forever. There was a video).  That's why we think the best rock climbers are the best all round climbers.

Also, climbing is a lot harder than putting in bits.

[remus]

...whereas Ondra waltzed up the hardest big wall in world (but it's fairly safe).

Minor point, but I think the dawn wall is actually pretty spicy in a lot of places. There's pitches of 8b and 8b+ protected by heads and other such aid climbing shit, that sounds pretty E9 to me! Obviously not the top level.

[jwi]

...whereas Ondra waltzed up the hardest big wall in world (but it's fairly safe).

Minor point, but I think the dawn wall is actually pretty spicy in a lot of places. There's pitches of 8b and 8b+ protected by heads and other such aid climbing shit, that sounds pretty E9 to me! Obviously not the top level.

It is safe for Ondra, as he never falls on 8b-terrain, if he can hang on a pecker or copperhead every ten meter

[petejh]

Rock climbing is a lot harder than ice climbing, mixed climbing, adventurous hiking and aid climbing. Usually, the best rock climbers quickly raise to the top of every other form of climbing soon after trying it. (Didn't Midtbø flash the semi-final route in the world cup of ice climbing with running beta the first time he had axes in his hand or something? He would have timed out as he took forever. There was a video).  That's why we think the best rock climbers are the best all round climbers.

Also, climbing is a lot harder than putting in bits.

Looking at it inversely, some of the best mixed climbers are relatively ordinary rock climbers and you could say the same for some of the most accomplished alpinists. So, clearly the skills aren't directly transferrable as you suggest.

You're undoubtedly wrong about mixed climbing. Either you don't do any mixed climbing, or perhaps you've messed around with some bolted dry-tooling, which isn't mixed climbing. Ondra or a.n.other famous rock wad would be at high risk of spannering themself if they got on a grade X mixed route in Scotland with zero experience of mixed climbing. I'd actually bet my year's wages* he couldn't get up such a route without first spending time learning the craft.
 
You're also somewhat wrong about ice climbing. The example you quote mistakes a totally sanitised unrealistic competition route for hard ice climbing - a comp route isn't a serious grade 7 pillar or ephemeral smear, both of which require ultimate precision and delicacy with essentially no reliable gear.

That doesn't mean either styles are physically comparable to grade 9 sport, they aren't anywhere near. But they aren't 'easier' either.  Just different and not transferrable. Happy to clear that up for you


* I'm retired

[thunderbeest]

Surely the fact it's had lots (7? 8?) of ascents, with everyone agreeing it's 8C+, is an indication that the grade is correct and has achieved a clear consensus?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I'm not getting the joke here, what's so funny?

My reading is that if everyone has done this 8C+, far more than any other, then it's probably soft. Like the most repeated routes at any crag. I agree BTW, it was exactly my thought when I read that.

Please feel free to correct if I've misinterpreted.

This makes no sense to me. To come back to my point about some problems being easier to do; Sleepwalker is in a desert where it hardly ever rains, is easily workable with a couple of pads, is the type of problem that rewards a persistent approach, and has easy access with a lengthy season of conditions.

If you're a climber in the US capable of climbing 8C+ (and there are a lot of them) then it's the obvious one to go for. So they do. None of that makes it 8C. Unless you think all those extraneous factors should be considered when grading things, which I don't.

Do you reckon that's shy there's more bouldering happening at the end of the scale than sport climbing? Because it's "easier" with logistics?

[Johnny Brown]

As Caff said of winter climbing, ‘the crux is affording all the gear’.

I think jwi had his tongue at least slightly in his cheek there, and I could put up a spirited argument either way (esp with regard to ‘putting in bits’), but I suspect there’s some truth in his statement if for no other reason that the numbers of people and hours spent participating must be 100x that for rock climbing as winter. So of course the top level is likely to be higher. Whether skills transfer is best settled empirically. Motivation is highly significant.

[petejh]

Stop it JB, your use of reason and facts to counter my viewpoint is making me feel upset and excluded.

[Andy W]

Will Bosi says about Shadow Play ... "pretty sure it will go"

[AMorris]

Bit of a different message from the ones we have heard before. I thought it was supposed to be utterly unclimbable by any human past or present, thus proving John to be a liar and a fraud. Interesting...  (at this point, can we just change the can of worms emoji to be a little jpeg of Johns smiling face?)

[Wellsy]

Bosi will do it and on the day he does Shark will receive an email with a vid of Gaskins doing it. He just wanted to be taken at his word. Sometimes a reasonable man must do unreasonable things.

[remus]

Will Bosi says about Shadow Play ... "pretty sure it will go"

Worth noting that what he actually says is "if you can find the feet to get into it [a shitty three finger undercut], Im pretty sure it'd go".

[Bradders]

In the comments he's replied to someone saying "that line is possible for sure"...

[Andy W]

Will Bosi says about Shadow Play ... "pretty sure it will go"

Worth noting that what he actually says is "if you can find the feet to get into it [a shitty three finger undercut], Im pretty sure it'd go".

Its not what he says though is it?

[Fiend]

"if you can find the feet to actually get tension into it [a shitty three finger undercut], Im pretty sure it'd go".

So close enough!

[Danny]

More interesting to me is his recent stories trying the Burden replica. Looking good, but Raboutou looking better still on the real thing in utterly wank conditions. Really fascinating to see various wads invest so much in it.

[User deactivated.]

More interesting to me is his recent stories trying the Burden replica. Looking good, but Raboutou looking better still on the real thing in utterly wank conditions. Really fascinating to see various wads invest so much in it.

Hasn't Will only had 3 sessions on it? I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bit harder than the real thing either, I just can't imagine plastic having as much friction as rock.

Shawn does look the favourite for the first repeat though!

[Danny]

Perhaps the replica is a touch harder. Makes sense from the armchair. But yes, the money is on Shawn at this point.

Pretty sure Hukkataival doesn't cut/rotate on that first move when he does it, so it's pretty impressive to see Shawn doing just that.

[SA Chris]

Height / reach thing maybe? Seems Nalle is 1.74m, Shawn is 1.34M? (random google so could be wrong)

[Duma]

He's def more than 1.34!

[jwi]

He was 1.34 when he was 11 years maybe. A bit shorter than 170 cm?

[M1V0]

Height / reach thing maybe? Seems Nalle is 1.74m, Shawn is 1.34M? (random google so could be wrong)

Shawn at 4 foot 5? Guess he must just have an ape of +45...

Maybe he just stands closer to the camera when there's other in the shot to make them seem similar sized.

[Fultonius]

Height / reach thing maybe? Seems Nalle is 1.74m, Shawn is 1.34M? (random google so could be wrong)

Shawn at 4 foot 5? Guess he must just have an ape of +45...

Maybe he just stands closer to the camera when there's other in the shot to make them seem similar sized.

Shawn "Tom Cruise" Rabattou?