[Moo]

They'll probably refer you for a scan after that appointment so you might be able to get in touch with whoever you're supposed to see ahead of time and get a referral early.

[Wellsy]

They'll probably refer you for a scan after that appointment so you might be able to get in touch with whoever you're supposed to see ahead of time and get a referral early.

I'll probably look into that. Thanks!

Day 4 - leg use is much better. I can walk around at home without crutches, and with increasing confidence. Definitely still pain if the knee tries to bend too much and valgus pressure pushing the knee in feels like it would be very unstable. I'll avoid trying to diagnose through Google anyway, but feels like if I could have confidence that won't happen then I would be way more functional. Knee brace here we come! Although I'll wait until seeing the SCC, see what they say.

In line with the advice given I've been trying to use it and ice it regularly. I also did some upper body training today, I'll be fingerboarding too, and I'll try to work out safe core exercises soon too.

[Fiend]

Yeah yeah whatever how's Elden Ring going??

[Wellsy]

Man it's so good. Best FS game ever. I think its a bit more forgiving than Bloodbourne cos you can just run the fuck awayyyyy if you get in too much trouble. Just dicking around in Limgrave.

[Wellsy]

Day 5 have acquired toy soldiers.

[Fiend]

  tell me that's a joke....

[Wellsy]

I wish it was my friend, I wish it was

[Wellsy]

Day 6

Went to the Sheffield Climbing Clinic to see James. He was really good, turns out the LCL diagnosis was duff as expected (not that I blame them hard to look at in A&E) and that what I definitely have is a grade 2 MCL tear and a very slightly possibly impinged ACL.

MCL no surgery just loads of rehab, no climbing for about a month post injury, probably about 12 weeks to get it nicely rehabbed up apparently. The ACL seems very minor and could just be inherent laxity as my left knee is also very loose. The plan is to rehab the MCL and see if any ACL symptoms pop up. If they don't cool, if they do that would need surgery but won't get any worse in the meantime and we can get to that when we get to it. It is the view of James that he would be surprised if I do need any surgical treatment.

So yeah a serious MCL injury but fixable and far from the worst case scenario. All in all somewhat positive, could be way worse and much longer out.

[Fiend]

How the fuck did the hospital mis-diagnose that given that LCL and MCL are pretty much polar opposite injuries and the tests are polar opposite movement tests (and really easy to do)?? 

I feel that I healed better from my MCL injury than from the LCL, even though the MCL seems to be stressed in a wider range of movements. I could certainly do "front-pointing" along the lower part of a circuit board fairly quickly (i.e. far too quickly for my then golfer's elbow).

[Wellsy]

Lord knows. I guess it is hard to diagnosis stuff in A&E.

Also yes I'm comforted in having the most basic bitch of ligament injuries.

[duncan]

How the fuck did the hospital mis-diagnose that given that LCL and MCL are pretty much polar opposite injuries and the tests are polar opposite movement tests (and really easy to do)?? 

When someone's knee is acutely painful and swollen every movement hurts. Diagnosing is not easy. It's maybe better not to try but everyone expects to walk out of A+E with a name.

Wellsy, this is all sounding promising. I'm not sure an MRI will be needed, it's mainly a surgeon's tool and as you seem to be improving fast you'll hopefully avoid this. Function should be your guide: if your knee feels stable it doesn't hugely matter what scans show. Usual caveats on the worth of free advice over the internet...

[sheavi]

Lord knows. I guess it is hard to diagnosis stuff in A&E.

Often those working in A&E (Dr's & nurses) have only a basic understanding of MSK non-bone injuries.  Always take A&E findings with a pinch of salt in this regard.

[moose]

Lord knows. I guess it is hard to diagnosis stuff in A&E.

Also yes I'm comforted in having the most basic bitch of ligament injuries.

It seems hard to diagnose stuff even at leisure. 15 days after I smashed my wrist, I had follow-up X-rays and was told by the radiologist (and later by my GP) that they showed nothing.  Weeks later, after continued pain encouraged me to go private, a consultant saw the same X-rays and told me they clearly showed an avulsion fracture and implied a torn ligament, which was confirmed by MRI.  I didn't really lose a great deal to be honest - the injury wasn't exacerbated, I just lost a month  I could have spent re-habbing  - but a bit annoying!

[Fiend]

Okay that's fair enough about the difficulty and vagueness of A & E. I was speaking from experience with my physio diagnosis that was so easy: Bend the knee inwards, no increase in pain -vs- bend the knee outwards, immediate increase in pain and too much flexing in the knee (and I assume this would have been directly the opposite with the MCL).

[mrjonathanr]

I went to Bradford A and E after crashing a Go Kart and they said the pain in my back was whiplash and take some paracetamol. The next day I went to Leeds A and E and they said the same thing. The next day I went to a chiro who took an x ray  and told me what the problem was.

When he saw the x ray of a massive wedge compression fracture in my thoracic vertebra the consultant at least had the decency to go pale.

So no, A and E don’t always pick things up.

[Wellsy]

How the fuck did the hospital mis-diagnose that given that LCL and MCL are pretty much polar opposite injuries and the tests are polar opposite movement tests (and really easy to do)?? 

When someone's knee is acutely painful and swollen every movement hurts. Diagnosing is not easy. It's maybe better not to try but everyone expects to walk out of A+E with a name.

Wellsy, this is all sounding promising. I'm not sure an MRI will be needed, it's mainly a surgeon's tool and as you seem to be improving fast you'll hopefully avoid this. Function should be your guide: if your knee feels stable it doesn't hugely matter what scans show. Usual caveats on the worth of free advice over the internet...

Thanks mate. It definitely feels like it's going in as good a direction as I could have hoped for!

[Wellsy]

Okay that's fair enough about the difficulty and vagueness of A & E. I was speaking from experience with my physio diagnosis that was so easy: Bend the knee inwards, no increase in pain -vs- bend the knee outwards, immediate increase in pain and too much flexing in the knee (and I assume this would have been directly the opposite with the MCL).

Essentially the opposite yeah.

I would say after looking into it, it appears that when you get a ligament injury in a joint often the other side of the joint gets very rapidly compressed leading to at times even more intense pain than the actually injured site. Apparently especially common in ankles in fact, you can damage ligament on the outside and it hurts more on the inside because the soft tissue has overcompressed, which eases after a few days.

On the day my LCL region was very painful, I assume due to compression,  and my knee was very swollen so a valgus test was not viable maybe? Anyway. Understandable that they would not diagnose it accurately imo.

[webbo]

Lord knows. I guess it is hard to diagnosis stuff in A&E.

Also yes I'm comforted in having the most basic bitch of ligament injuries.

I spent the afternoon in Hull A & E having had a head on collision with lurched whilst out on my bike. No broken bones apparently.
Next morning my mate and colleague who was the A & E mental health liaison nurse called round  to give me a lift back to A & E . When a senior medic had reviewed the days X rays he noticed I had 3 broken ribs.
A lot of the doctors working A & E are often on the first placement after finishing medical school.

[Hoseyb]

I was fortunate in that I was seen by a nurse practitioner with something like 30+ years experience; Ysbyty Gwynedd's equivalent of Charlie from Casualty.

[Wellsy]

One week later: rehab started in earnest. Mobility stretches for range of motion and gentle movement on the exercise bike, which feels good and not impinging. Bit of slow air squats and such too. I'll be getting on the gym machines this week. One crutch outdoors essentially for a bit of security but doing much better. Regular ice and flexing seems to really help. Upper body training also in moderation, no more than before but no less either.

Walking is still not pleasant and first thing in the morning it's very stiff. But this is to be expected. Good progress.

[Wellsy]

Marginally less fucked. No climbing is misery inducing. I hope it pisses it down when my friends go out. Going to start barbell benching again.

[Fiend]

Marginally less fucked. No climbing is misery inducing.

Imagine how that will feel after a couple of months of it  *

As a bonus, imagine that you also have an arm injury so you can't train. And that the one time you do go out to try to climb even the easiest stuff you can't trust yourself to do anything at all, and end up curled up on the sofa in a pit of despair. And imagine that exactly the same sort of double injury happened the previous year...

On the other hand, if you can bench enough, according to Liamhutch98, you'll soon be doing enough muscle-ups to climb 8B... (personally I did some of my best benching at the weekend and would have PBed if some fucking random nub i got to spot me hadn't taken a fraction of the weight on my lift - and I'm on the worst climbing burl shape I've ever been).

* - p.s. in all seriousness, stick with it. Day by day, each time try to do something useful for your rehab or general activity. And "be glad you have the opportunity to learn the virtue of patience" (C) MrJonathonR 2017 (arsehole  )

[Wellsy]

I can (could, because I can't risk dropping from them) shoddily do one (1) muscle up on the rings but I'm pretty sure I could do ten perfectly and I'd get to about 7B+ with a tailwind knowing my ability.

I am carefully learning and distilling the art of bitter hatred but yes it could be worse I could be down the use of my wanking hand. The benching is more because I like benching than anything really.

Hope your majesty mortal avatar fixes up in all the joints, Fiend

[Fiend]

I am carefully learning and distilling the art of bitter hatred

that's the spirit!!

I agree with you on bench. One of my favourite non-climbing movements.

[User deactivated.]

On the other hand, if you can bench enough, according to Liamhutch98, you'll soon be doing enough muscle-ups to climb 8B... (personally I did some of my best benching at the weekend and would have PBed if some fucking random nub i got to spot me hadn't taken a fraction of the weight on my lift - and I'm on the worst climbing burl shape I've ever been).

Congrats on getting to 1.5x bodyweight on bench in order to disprove what I said...

Although what I actually said was 1.5x bench and 1.5x pullup would equal muscle ups. Find me someone with those numbers who can't do a muscle up.

You are in poor burl shape because you are injured and perhaps your numbers are way below 1.5x?

Sorry for hijack wellsy. Glad to hear things are mending slowly and keep up the psyche