[petejh]

Think if I was a sport climber, I’d still rather go to the Barcelona area and get some sun on the Balearic coast rather than get battered by the Atlantic! No spirit of adventure these days…

in good condition from May - September, unlike Spain.

I'll stop now. I don't really want to meet anyone out there.

[teestub]

I think you’re pretty safe Pete unless Johnson builds his bridge!

One wouldn’t head to that area of Spain for the summer months, but it’s not like there aren’t tonnes of other well established options in Spain and France for that time of year.

Enjoy your adventurous solitude, I wonder if Steve Mac has convinced anyone it’s worth going since his visit?

[petejh]

Tonnes of options for hard sport climbing in Spain and France through the summer - I mean yeah there's obviously loads of class stuff to enjoy.. especially the obvious higher and/or N.facing areas like Ceuse and a few others. But it isn't renowned for being the place Brits go through late spring/summer because a major part of the attraction of travelling to Spain and France in November through to April is it gives Brit climbers something they can't get in their own country at that time of year. In spring/summer there's tons of quality climbing to enjoy in the UK (and/or Ireland). You're coming across almost as if you're enthusiastically against the idea of checking out some climbing areas close to home during the drier warmer parts of the year because, you know, they could actually be pretty good.

You're right, stay away it's shite!

[James Malloch]

Fucks sake just get a year long visa, it isn't hard. You'll then have 1.25 years in Europe in, umm, 1.5 years. Whinging cunts 

How would one go about getting a year-long visa..?

[ali k]

Whinging remoaner c*nts. Next you'll be moaning about higher prices and less choice in the supermarkets...why can't you see it as a perfect opportunity to reduce food waste or something?

[SA Chris]

For the record I am in no way in support of Brexit, just saying I don't think it's as bleak a picture as everyone is making out.

Anyway, kind of straying from the point. Yes some weans out there doing well.

[petejh]

This ^. 90 days in 180 is no real-world constraint for 99% of people, except for a sub-group of those 99% who like to moan. For the other 1%, you can get a year-long extended visitor visa by applying to the French authorities. Or for the 0.1% (not really, it must be way higher among retired climbers and trust-fund climbers) you can just show the Spanish you have 27,000 euros in savings and get a year's stay. FFS it took me about 5 seconds to find this out.

[seankenny]

This ^. 90 days in 180 is no real-world constraint for 99% of people

Probably about the same proportion of the population who are young, male, black, and stopped by the police all the time - doesn't make it a great situation. I know plenty of people affected, not just climbers: my mum's neighbours with their small flat in Spain come to mind immediately. Supporting a policy that makes peoples' lives shittier (even if just a bit) and then calling them whingers* for saying that it is indeed shittier is pretty low, sorry Pete, it just is. (Thanks for your Ireland bolting efforts tho.)

Having said that, I've read that some Spanish politicians are talking about a making long stays easier for Brits, so I can imagine we might end up with a patchwork of different arrangements which make long trips easier than the shit deal we have right now, depending on what we can offer in return.


* even with the tired old "just banter" clause.

[lukeyboy]

This ^. 90 days in 180 is no real-world constraint for 99% of people

Probably about the same proportion of the population who are young, male, black, and stopped by the police all the time - doesn't make it a great situation.
...

Not that I think you seriously were, but let's not compare racially motivated police harassment of minority groups with not being able to go on a 6 month+ international climbing trip without some extra admin.

That aside, Brexit is shit.

[petejh]

It *is* mostly banter Sean - I’m not blind to the fact that spending 6 months climbing or in your Provence/Spanish second home is now a bit more difficult (but far from problematic, as I’ve pointed out).

With most things the outcome is rarely as bad as the imagined outcome.  We’ll see won’t we.

[seankenny]

Not that I think you seriously were, but let's not compare racially motivated police harassment of minority groups with not being able to go on a 6 month+ international climbing trip without some extra admin.

That aside, Brexit is shit.

No, obviously not! More criticising the argument that losing some rights isn't important because not many people ever availed themselves of those rights. It's a doubly crap premise as it's clear quite a lot of Brits did indeed use those rights, even if just once in their lives, hence all the internet chatter about how to find a workaround.

It *is* mostly banter Sean - I’m not blind to the fact that spending 6 months climbing or in your Provence/Spanish second home is now a bit more difficult (but far from problematic, as I’ve pointed out).

With most things the outcome is rarely as bad as the imagined outcome.  We’ll see won’t we.

Banter is usually quite different from being funny.

I think you miss the difference between being free to do something, and being a supplicant. Still, freedom eh, I'm drinking it in. 

[ali k]

Think most people can cope with minor inconvenience or extra ball achey admin if there are other benefits to make up for it Pete. After all, no one has said the limits on travel are catastrophic in isolation.

But when there is literally nothing positive to show from us leaving the EU, and a hell of a lot other shitty extra inconvenience on top of a massive hit to the economy - for people who voted to actively harm this country to then say “stop whinging it’s not that bad” is a bit fucking rich.

[teestub]

Looking forward to Pete’s scheme where he temporarily lends youth wads £30k so they can get their Spanish visas sorted.

[petejh]

Good scheme! 5% seems fair.

Ali, that seems logically inconsistent. The ‘extra benefit’ of the increased ‘ballache’ admin (of applying for a 12-month visa or proving you have €27,000 savings) is, obviously, staying in schengen for 12 months instead of 6.

The fact that you didn’t used to have to do that is separate from the fact that now, you do.
Leaving the EU happened, and many of you hate that fact. But that is the reality.

Also.. Croatian sport crags would appear to be a future destination for climbers hanging around outside schengen while their day-counter resets.

[abarro81]

Ali, that seems logically inconsistent. The ‘extra benefit’ of the increased ‘ballache’ admin (of applying for a 12-month visa or proving you have €27,000 savings) is, obviously, staying in schengen for 12 months instead of 6.

He's referring to the benefit of brexit, not the benefit of the visa. Which you seem to know but makes your response defunct.

This is a very strange argument given that everyone basically agrees with the fact that things are a bit more of a pain - especially if young and with limited savings or a need to work (either via a job there or working remotely) - but not a total disaster given other destinations and some longer visa options.

The volume of the moaning is no doubt a bit louder than reflects the precise issue, because people are throwing out the odd disgruntled moan at the whole thing, due to things like:
- having been locked out of Europe entirely for a period earlier this year due to Brexit/COVID combo
- reduced ability to live/work/retire abroad without being rich
- friends/family impacted by these things (e.g. as I understand it my uncle/aunt in law got f*cked by not earning enough to get Spanish residency)
- having extra faff at work due to added export faff
- getting stung for extra charges when buying from the EU
etc... If you kick me in the balls and I wake up tomorrow with sore balls, I'll still be pissed you kicked me in them even if it's done and I can't do anything about it. 

[petejh]

But that’s exactly my point Alex - it’s an argument against Brexit. And brexit has happened. So it’s an argument against something that has happened.
Lamenting a past reality, that no longer exists and isn’t coming back, isn’t a productive use of time and doesn’t offer any value in negotiating the present reality.

[Paul B]

The fact that you didn’t used to have to do that is separate from the fact that now, you do.
Leaving the EU happened, and many of you hate that fact. But that is the reality.

So Barrows should get on board with you kicking him in the balls, because it happened?

[petejh]

I wouldn’t be happy if I were kicked in the balls, nor do I expect people who didn’t want to leave the EU to be happy that we left the EU.

As for ‘get on board with me kicking him’, in the context of travelling to the schengen area I don’t know what you mean, probably because it’s meaningless. Get a 12-month visa etc, don’t get a 12-month visa etc. Those are currently your options.


Edit: perhaps some people think I’m ascribing to other people what I think they should believe. I’m doing no such thing - I fully understand other people’s point of view about the EU and their upset at their preferred option not being the reality. I’d hope others would do the same in reverse by not ascribing beliefs and emotions to me that I don’t hold. (I actually wouldn’t have cared very much if the ref had gone the other way and would happily have gone on with life, perhaps thinking it was an interesting opportunity lost but hey-ho. But that probably doesn’t fit people’s agendas of a ‘leaver’. Anyway this is way OT, my fault).

[spidermonkey09]

To continue the Barrows ball kicking analogy, perhaps a more interesting logical question is how long is it reasonable to bear a grudge against the person who kicked him in the balls?

Personally whilst I think Brexit was fucking stupid I don't get exercised by it these days in the same way Barrows/Ali do. Maybe because I hadn't really had the chance to go to Europe for longer than a few months I just don't miss what I never experienced?

[Teaboy]

Personally whilst I think Brexit was fucking stupid I don't get exercised by it these days in the same way Barrows/Ali do. Maybe because I hadn't really had the chance to go to Europe for longer than a few months I just don't miss what I never experienced?

If only it were the case that trustifarians being unable to vanlife through Spain indefinitely was the only ill that Brexit visited on us.

[petekitso]

I think that Alex is winning the debate as to whether European travel is more difficult after Brexit.

Pete is definitely ahead when it comes to  suggesting pragmatic approaches to mitigate the obvious impacts of Brexit on European travel:  ideas include (i) get visa, (ii) don't bother and (iii) have E27k

(I agree with Sean, rights and freedoms have value even to those who do not directly exercise those rights. Surely choosing not to do something is very different from being unable to do it.)

My mate Andy hit me in the balls with a cricket ball when I was 15, I still hate the fucker now three decades later.

[abarro81]

My mate Andy hit me in the balls with a cricket ball when I was 15, I still hate the fucker now three decades later.

 

[seankenny]

But that’s exactly my point Alex - it’s an argument against Brexit. And brexit has happened. So it’s an argument against something that has happened.
Lamenting a past reality, that no longer exists and isn’t coming back, isn’t a productive use of time and doesn’t offer any value in negotiating the present reality.

Given that Euroscepticism/Brexit was a political movement based on a 40-year complaint about something that had already happened, it seems a little rich to ask pro-Europeans to shut up less than a year into our delightful post-EU life. Especially since moans like "immigrants took all our jobs" turn out to have been bollocks whilst "Brexiters stole my rights" is an accurate description of the present reality.

But more to the point, our relationship with the EU is an on-going thing. Our Vote Leave government are literally trying to change the Brexit they negotiated at the moment. There's plenty of room for a Brexit that included a sane and sensible rather than antagonist relationship with the EU, and more freedom of movement for us could and should be a part of it. I'm sure the Spanish would be up for this. But first we'd need a government that didn't blame everything on foreigners...

[Paul B]

I wouldn’t be happy if I were kicked in the balls, nor do I expect people who didn’t want to leave the EU to be happy that we left the EU.

As for ‘get on board with me kicking him’, in the context of travelling to the schengen area I don’t know what you mean, probably because it’s meaningless. Get a 12-month visa etc, don’t get a 12-month visa etc. Those are currently your options.


Edit: perhaps some people think I’m ascribing to other people what I think they should believe. I’m doing no such thing - I fully understand other people’s point of view about the EU and their upset at their preferred option not being the reality. I’d hope others would do the same in reverse by not ascribing beliefs and emotions to me that I don’t hold. (I actually wouldn’t have cared very much if the ref had gone the other way and would happily have gone on with life, perhaps thinking it was an interesting opportunity lost but hey-ho. But that probably doesn’t fit people’s agendas of a ‘leaver’. Anyway this is way OT, my fault).

What I meant Pete is that you're OK with people being unhappy about leaving and the effect that's had on travel within the Schengen area, but if they vocalise that, it's whining (because a less good alternative exists)/fruitless whereas it's simply an expression of that unhappiness/anger/frustration. To me, those two things don't add up and you see it all over the Leave/Remain divide:

"if we leave X will happen/be shit"
"no, it'll be fine"
LEAVING
"look X is now shit"
"Well, we've left so get on board, it's happened"

I find it very tedious.

If only it were the case that trustifarians being unable to vanlife through Spain indefinitely was the only ill that Brexit visited on us.

Exactly.

Back to travel, having been lucky enough to travel both in the EU and USA the latter is far more stressful in terms of staying on the right side of the rules. We opted not to go for the extended visa (~6M) as the pass/fail rate was alarmingly high and if you happen to fail, you're no longer eligible to use the ESTA.

[petejh]

There's plenty of room for a Brexit that included a sane and sensible rather than antagonist relationship with the EU, and more freedom of movement for us could and should be a part of it. I'm sure the Spanish would be up for this. But first we'd need a government that didn't blame everything on foreigners...

On this I fully agree.