[Thomnomnom]

Hell To The Liars: https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/bla_bheinn-684/hell_to_the_liars-626566

I thought Free Energy was a bit of a dud tbh, more like 7A if you heel hook . I'm not sure that block needs two problems on it and personally I thought Splurge was better (but I found it quite difficult so might have missed some beta).

Cortege Noir at Ben Ledi seemed a bit weird and unsatisfactory too. Tombstone alone probably does the trick for that venue.

I think Andy's right that the Morar Monster could fit in - it would give Lochaber a bit of a broader spread.

Oh, I thought Cairngorm Arete Crouch Start was very good as well. Imo it should be on the list. Thanks for compiling by the way, great fun!

[SA Chris]

Nothing else worthwhile in Glen Coe?

[Stewart]

Hell To The Liars: https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/bla_bheinn-684/hell_to_the_liars-626566

I thought Free Energy was a bit of a dud tbh, more like 7A if you heel hook . I'm not sure that block needs two problems on it and personally I thought Splurge was better (but I found it quite difficult so might have missed some beta).

Cortege Noir at Ben Ledi seemed a bit weird and unsatisfactory too. Tombstone alone probably does the trick for that venue.

I think Andy's right that the Morar Monster could fit in - it would give Lochaber a bit of a broader spread.

Oh, I thought Cairngorm Arete Crouch Start was very good as well. Imo it should be on the list. Thanks for compiling by the way, great fun!

Cheers bud, i'll make those changes on the next edit

[Bonjoy]

As mentioned already by SAChris - Hell to the Liars 7b on Bla Bheinn

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CEDBxnpD4h1/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQohVqUDF_r/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Bonjoy, looks amazing. Have you added this to ukc?

Yes, and have now changed to 7B on there

[Bonjoy]

Please continue to press your case if you think further changes required, but also advise what you'd swap!
I had the idea that a coffee table/guide book with one brilliant picture of each problem and a short description of the area (access, number of other routes etc) would be much better than a full new bouldering Scotland guide book which would be a major undertaking with the volume of new problems. Unfortunately i know nothing about photography or publishing so if someone else wants to steal this project you're very welcome! I'd certainly buy it!

This would be amazing! I'd certainly buy a copy.

[SA Chris]

Convince Guy to make it his next project??

https://scottishmountaineeringpress.com/product/great-sea-cliffs-of-scotland/

https://www.v-publishing.co.uk/books/climbing/the-great-mountain-crags-of-scotland/

[gardinrm]

I had the idea that a coffee table/guide book with one brilliant picture of each problem and a short description of the area (access, number of other routes etc) would be much better than a full new bouldering Scotland guide book which would be a major undertaking with the volume of new problems.

What an amazing idea. I'd love to support that however I can. I agree that this would be an amazing 'snapshot' of Scottish bouldering, and also offer something really unique. From my perspective the challenge is getting people psyched to make the trip, and everyone loves a stunning photo. Let do it...

[gardinrm]

P.S. Biohazard is definitely not 7c+, more like soft 7b+. I'll change this in my next update of the Sheigra guide.

[Stewart]

Does anyone have a topo for Barry valley? Or Rooftown? I'm staying in strathnairn with family for a few days next week and would like to have a look at some of these.  @scragrock perhaps?

[scragrock]

Does anyone have a topo for Barry valley? Or Rooftown? I'm staying in strathnairn with family for a few days next week and would like to have a look at some of these.  @scragrock perhaps?

P.M you

[Fultonius]

How many folks use 27 Crags?  It does seem to cover all the features we're looking for. It's free too, so long as the crag managers don't make them "premium". I guess popular areas might go that way, but it would great to get the whole of Scotland on there.

[jwi]

27crags is used extensively in Scandinavia. For a while it was the only way new boulderproblem was communicated. Very easy: if the crag/boulder already has a topo photo just add a line on it with the interactive drawing tool, if not just take a cellphone photo, upload it, and draw the line.

However, the free model did not pull in nowhere enough money to cover the cost of hosting + developing and they moved to a subscription model. At least in Scandinavia useage of premium is enforced by marking every area with more than something like five problems or routes as "premium". Access to premium content cost €50 per year.

For me personally that has been a good thing as the sales of my guidebook went up by quite a bit after they started to mark most areas as Premium as it is not easy to compete against something that is free even if you have a better product.

I think thecrag is still free and has many of the features of 27crags (but I have not looked into this closer). I just find it hard to believe that any other revenue model than subscription can cover the costs of hosting and development.

[Fultonius]

Interesting. Cheers Jonas.

I saw St Bees was still on the free version, and has a load of problems listed. Seeing as there are "minimum standards" for premium content, what happens when you get too big and get told to "go pro", but then you're quality fall shot somehow?

€50/yr just seems a bit steep. How much of a cut do 27Crags take, and how much gos to the developers?

[jwi]

Interesting. Cheers Jonas.

I saw St Bees was still on the free version, and has a load of problems listed. Seeing as there are "minimum standards" for premium content, what happens when you get too big and get told to "go pro", but then you're quality fall shot somehow?

€50/yr just seems a bit steep. How much of a cut do 27Crags take, and how much gos to the developers?

I do not remember exactly how much the creators of premium content gets, but my impression at the time was that it never adds up to much unless you have tons of users accessing the content. That's also the impression I get from people I know who are editing premium content. (In Scandinavia it might make sense to put stuff on premium if you are a guidebook writer to stop the content on 27crags to be available for free...)

The crags I added in St Antonin are still not premium, but I have received many messages from 27crags staff to make take
it premium... ( example https://27crags.com/crags/couyrac/topos/sector-1-17571 )

[gardinrm]

For topos, see: https://scottishbloc.com/topos/
Work in progress...

[SA Chris]

There is also

https://ukbouldering.fandom.com/wiki/Ukbouldering_Wikia

which I think Slackline set up but never really gained momentum.

[Fultonius]

For topos, see: https://scottishbloc.com/topos/
Work in progress...

Not to be too negative about it - but for me it highlights the exact issue with not having something like, well, 27 crags...  Having routes on a static PDF, that then needs modified, exported, uploaded, linked is just so time consuming.

The tech is there to make it a simple seamless prospect. Photo, draw line, add info, upload. Or, if there's already a photo - add new line, upload, add info...done.

I've just emailed FatMap to see if they've got any interest in branching out into boulder topos - it's a fair bit cheaper than 27 Crags, AND you would get all the benefits of the other info / systems they already offer in the package.

We clearly have the people who have a inclination and skills develop the areas, document and create topos. It's just the lack of platform that holds it back. I did mention to devs in Rockfax about it, but tbh I doubt they'll ever give away enough power to allow community generated and cheaply accessible topos, bit who knows. They're app is nicely laid out.

[SA Chris]

Bit damning. Owt is better than nowt?

[andy_e]

I'd far rather a well-produced pdf topo that contains all the information in one place and doesn't rely on having phone signal (or even needing a phone at all, I tend to avoid my phone whilst climbing). New problems don't really get done so often that the guide needs updating every week... Also, pdf topos produced by passionate locals are free, no need for any commercialisation whatsoever.

[teestub]

I'd far rather a well-produced pdf topo that contains all the information in one place and doesn't rely on having phone signal

Ditto (although I’d look at the pdf on my phone).

[scragrock]

Interesting topic, probably needs its own thread.

i have been struggling with this for over a decade and i am Not alone by the sounds of things.

When i first encountered these issues ScottishClimbs and Inverness Bouldering were still running and covered most of the new developments in my area. I suspect other areas of Scotland operated this way too.
Mostly this has been run by passionate individuals on an ad hoc free basis and always based around community made PDF topo's.

Then UKC was adapted as a kind of library of lines and problems later adding in the extra's to make a pretty good system of upgradable/updatable areas and venues.

These websites and blogs are not without their flaws and mostly it comes down to finance and participants input or lack of it.

Ideal scenario would be something like-
Bleau.info/Peakbouldering.info and a UKC rating and logbook library kind of thing with a companion Guidebook{for us oldies} and OCD moderators who constantly update without agenda.
All of this is to be free or paid by a UK based billionaire boulderer.

I used UKC for years as a best option as it was free and i could entirely control the content of the new stuff i was developing{kind off}
i have stepped back from this as UKC are now in partnership with Rockfax and are now charging people on their app potentially for work that i have done, i was hoping it would always be free to all {perhaps this was naive}   

I am aware that there is old and new websites that kind of cover what we are after but in my opinion they are either a little clunky or not open to community involvement.

I decided just to write a guide{published through Stone Country in 2022 hopefully}.

Its a fine balance that i think as a community in Scotland we have not quite grasped yet, I am hopeful that the upcoming next generation can fulfil this need with a patient understanding nod to those who have been before.

[SA Chris]

I'd far rather a well-produced pdf topo that contains all the information in one place and doesn't rely on having phone signal

Ditto (although I’d look at the pdf on my phone).

Me too. Normally people will develop an area to a reasonable level of maturity (i.e. bag most of their projects ) before producing any topo / info.

[Bonjoy]

Ideal scenario would be something like-
Bleau.info/Peakbouldering.info and a UKC rating and logbook library kind of thing with a companion Guidebook{for us oldies} and OCD moderators who constantly update without agenda.

I'd be careful what you wish for! Peakbouldering.info has gone down with little prospect of reappearing it would seem. Therefore all the information that users added to it in good faith, often only recorded there, is potentially lost permanently(as also happened with the similar yorkshiregrit site some year back). This includes details of things that even the folk who wrote it no longer remember.

[Alex-the-Alex]

I'd be careful what you wish for! Peakbouldering.info has gone down with little prospect of reappearing it would seem. Therefore all the information that users added to it in good faith, often only recorded there, is potentially lost permanently(as also happened with the similar yorkshiregrit site some year back). This includes details of things that even the folk who wrote it no longer remember.

Another benefit of nice pdfs. I've still got dog eared annotated copies of most of the Unknown Stones ones on the shelf next the Yorkshire grit guides! Can't print out 27crags lines. I'm with AndyE

[Fultonius]

Ideal scenario would be something like-
Bleau.info/Peakbouldering.info and a UKC rating and logbook library kind of thing with a companion Guidebook{for us oldies} and OCD moderators who constantly update without agenda.

I'd be careful what you wish for! Peakbouldering.info has gone down with little prospect of reappearing it would seem. Therefore all the information that users added to it in good faith, often only recorded there, is potentially lost permanently(as also happened with the similar yorkshiregrit site some year back). This includes details of things that even the folk who wrote it no longer remember.

Is none of that available from the wayback machine?

Can we get a thread split? Seems like a good conversation to be had.

BTW - I'm in no way trying to ram 27Crags through as "the default" I just pine for some kind of open community based thing where we own our own data, but have access to tools (topo making, databases) that makes life easier.

I'd happily go out and spend time documenting stuff for free.

P.S. You can print 27Crags etc. just like a PDF for your analogue tactile paper types....