[Fiend]

Also while we're all in a super-psyched mood celebrating Gresh's (and maybe soon to be the Macs) achievement, does anyone have a nice large and clear topo showing the wall and where Lexicon goes?? The one in the Langdale guide is pretty tiny. Ta.

[ali k]

Anyway I think the point is....ummm what was the point?? Something about the top end of Pete's grade table not actually working linearly in it's common application. Yes that's the one.

Here endeth the thread.





....until next time a new hard trad route gets done and we inevitably have the same discussion and conclusion 

[Bonjoy]

It shouldn't be... seen as 'shit flinging'.

This was a reaction to Will Hunt's comment about hoping Dave Mac 'slags' the grade on Lexicon. Maybe tongue in cheek but I do think it reflects a level of gleeful schadenfreude that exists among climbers regarding downgrading. My main objection to this is the distorting effect it has on grading - see old debates about the state of UK bouldering grades at the top end.

[petejh]

The process of grading trad routes shouldn't be that difficult. Certainly not as hard you make it out Bonjoy. There are only really two important variables to consider:
sport grade - any regular climber should be should be able to accurately judge this to within 2 grades.
danger - given the four options below someone should be able to judge this to within 2 options. When climbs aren't getting put up onsight/ground-up then danger isn't *that* theoretical.

I think you misundertood my thesis. I'm not saying grading is desperately difficult, just that assuming no dishonesty, if you get it wrong it's more likely you'll have overgraded than undergraded. In most cases this is because of new beta (including gear). This is a one way bias, routes never gain grades by losing beta. Nobody unerringly finds the best beta on every single ascent and everyone is working within subtly different physiological limits anyway, hence the most efficient beta may not even work for the FAer. The outcome we see is more top end routes shedding grades than gaining them (with most staying at the given grade obvs).

I don't strongly disagree with your point about beta. But there is hold loss - Parthian Shot being the obvious one but who's to say there won't be others as standards continue to improve and harder E-grades get more headpoint traffic and holds get ripped off. It's not uncommon for sport routes to get harder with hold loss.

Also, different topic (and can of worms) but I think you could come away with a very different conclusion on the direction of hard trad grades if we come back to this discussion 15 years from now. For the very different reason of all the bullshit heavily pegged sea-cliff routes that were E6, 7 or 8 but which have become E7, 8 or 9 after shedding their steel protection.

[Bonjoy]

I did say "assuming no physical change (hold loss/gain)."

[ali k]

Also, different topic (and can of worms) but I think you could come away with a very different conclusion on the direction of hard trad grades if we come back to this discussion 15 years from now. For the very different reason of all the bullshit heavily pegged sea-cliff routes that were E6, 7 or 8 but which have become E7, 8 or 9 after shedding their steel protection.

This'll be great. They can all be re-climbed as quality 'new' routes without all the hassle of exploring to find them! Ultimately this is why I opted to do Big Issue without the peg even though it's still in there - so there's never an excuse to replace it. I'm hoping the same goes for all peg-protected routes, especially on sea cliffs (unless they can be hand placed and removed afterwards).

[grimer]

This thread is less funny than it was on page 2.

I blame Steve Mac.

[Will Hunt]

It shouldn't be... seen as 'shit flinging'.

This was a reaction to Will Hunt's comment about hoping Dave Mac 'slags' the grade on Lexicon. Maybe tongue in cheek but I do think it reflects a level of gleeful schadenfreude that exists among climbers regarding downgrading. My main objection to this is the distorting effect it has on grading - see old debates about the state of UK bouldering grades at the top end.

To be honest, I think a downgrade is inevitable but my comment was more motivated by a desire to see some rationality applied to something that has probably been a little over-hyped. I can totally understand being psyched off your head for your project, but it always pays to step back, draw breath, and wonder whether something is really as hard/dangerous/good as you thought it was in the moment; to try and present it honestly and to be prepared to have someone make a different assessment of it.

Time and inspection by others will tell. I just hope that they will feel they can give an honest assessment without it being seen as shit-flinging.

[IanP]

Taking this position would mean that E10 is a pretty wide grade and matching in diffculty near to the very top end of UK climbing on the sport side with only 1 route in the UK and 2 climbers who have done anything harder.   This tends to make me feel that E11 is a pretty big number and it is ok to question it, while at the same time not wanting to take anything away from what looks to be an really impressive effort.

Pretty sure it's 2 routes, Rhapsody and Echo Wall, and 3 climbers, DMac, SteMac, and Pearson. The other two contenders, Walk Of Life and Longhope Route got mercilessly downgraded ofc.
As for E10s, quite a few off the top of my head, Equlibrium, Sleepy Hollow, Chorozon,  that other thing in Pembroke, Rewind, To Hell And Back, Hold Fast Hold True, Parthian sans flake, etc. Not counting downgrades.

Edit: my point has already been made, should keep up with the whole thread before replying 

Possibly wasn't clear, I meant 9b or harder, so Rainman and Mclure/Bosi.  The point being that the shortage of E11s isn't that suprising in this light and if someone not right at the top of the climbing tree claims an E11 it is ok to discuss.

[Fiend]

Anyway I think the point is....ummm what was the point?? Something about the top end of Pete's grade table not actually working linearly in it's common application. Yes that's the one.

Here endeth the thread.
....until next time a new hard trad route gets done and we inevitably have the same discussion and conclusion 

Don't get me wrong, the trad grading system works perfectly and with great clarity in the context of great British trad climbing, especially with the optional addition of a sport grade. But the adjectival grade doesn't quite rise in direct linear correlation to the tech grade nor sport grade of the physical challenge, hence why DMac's new thing isn't E10 and Indian Face isn't E8. But that's totally fine because it's very easy to understand the meaning of the grade/challenge compared to all the previous routes (usually below it, at this level).

[Fiend]

Also, different topic (and can of worms) but I think you could come away with a very different conclusion on the direction of hard trad grades if we come back to this discussion 15 years from now. For the very different reason of all the bullshit heavily pegged sea-cliff routes that were E6, 7 or 8 but which have become E7, 8 or 9 after shedding their steel protection.

You mean the ones that are down to E5, 6, or 7, now that they've had stainless steel """eco-pegs""" drilled and cemented into place?? 

[Tony]

Anyway I think the point is....ummm what was the point?? Something about the top end of Pete's grade table not actually working linearly in it's common application. Yes that's the one.

Here endeth the thread.

This is a trite conclusion which misrepresents a wide variety of contributions.

[northern yob]

It shouldn't be... seen as 'shit flinging'.

This was a reaction to Will Hunt's comment about hoping Dave Mac 'slags' the grade on Lexicon. Maybe tongue in cheek but I do think it reflects a level of gleeful schadenfreude that exists among climbers regarding downgrading. My main objection to this is the distorting effect it has on grading - see old debates about the state of UK bouldering grades at the top end.

To be honest, I think a downgrade is inevitable but my comment was more motivated by a desire to see some rationality applied to something that has probably been a little over-hyped. I can totally understand being psyched off your head for your project, but it always pays to step back, draw breath, and wonder whether something is really as hard/dangerous/good as you thought it was in the moment; to try and present it honestly and to be prepared to have someone make a different assessment of it.

Time and inspection by others will tell. I just hope that they will feel they can give an honest assessment without it being seen as shit-flinging.

This.
Call me a cynic, or worse a shit slinger. I can’t imagine the grade holding up, time will tell.

Neil isn’t exactly a conservative grader( he’s not alone at the top end) most people seriously trying to make a living purely from climbing are always more likely to round it up rather than down. For some of the reasons bonjoy mentioned I have always rounded down when grading.

 Ultimately they have more to gain from throwing a big grade at it, and taking the subsequent downgrade than they do from being conservative. I’m sure the subsequent film and Neil’s profile will get all the more publicity this way than if he had been conservative, peer recognition doesn’t pay the mortgage.

The fact that there is pretty much a queue forming to have a look would also imply I’m not the only one….. pretty much everyone I have spoken to has been sceptical about the grade (not quality) of the route. I think it would be even sadder if the climbing community avoided these discussions for fear of being a shitslinger. Debate and even shitslinging is healthy.

It’s cool people are keen to try it, it’s cool neil has done it. It’s cool people are talking about it. It looks a great route and is undoubtedly very hard. It would be cool if the grade stands…. I just don’t think it will.

[ali k]

This is a trite conclusion which misrepresents a wide variety of contributions.

Did you think I was being serious? Where’s the tongue in cheek emoji, or have I missed it?

[Duncan campbell]

I can neither confirm nor deny that you had such a dream, but I can confirm that I own a very long clipstick and nowadays have a very low tolerance to being bold, making this seem unlikely in real life. Are you sure I didn't just say take, moan about hard clips being shit, moan about my fingers and then lower off and sulk for a while? Sounds more realistic...

No you definitely decked - I was stood right underneath you, but might have moved out of your way. P.s. Can't believe Dunc has puntered me for dreaming about you! Doesn't everyone?

Sorry Ali! All in jest obviously!

[shark]

P.s. Can't believe Dunc has puntered me for dreaming about you! Doesn't everyone?

Sorry Ali! All in jest obviously!

Careful. First punter point is the worst. Think Stu had to undergo therapy

[andy moles]

In the chat about top end routes and potential downgrading etc, I don't think anyone has mentioned Mind Riot - which Dave Mac basically said, with some caveats, was harder than Rhapsody, but nevertheless gave E10. It would certainly be fresher in his mind as a reference point.

[teestub]

In the chat about top end routes and potential downgrading etc, I don't think anyone has mentioned Mind Riot - which Dave Mac basically said, with some caveats, was harder than Rhapsody, but nevertheless gave E10. It would certainly be fresher in his mind as a reference point.

Hard to keep track of all the hard shit that Dave Mac gets up to sometimes! https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2019/10/mind_riot_e10_7a_first_ascent_by_dave_macleod-72091

[Nike Air]

That looks Ace!
Also love 8m55sec in that video

[Tony]

Did you think I was being serious? Where’s the tongue in cheek emoji, or have I missed it?

Sorry, I was really quoting Fiend's dross, but selectively including your bit framed it nicely.

... this is why I opted to do Big Issue without the peg ...

Big Issue E8 if you're tall tho, innit? 

[Fiend]

You can take your "dross" and shove it sideways! I'm fully aware there's a variety of contributions, I've read almost all of them to the point where more chat about sport equivalent grades has my brain stuttering and I start mis-reading posts. It's all fascinating, but maybe better to have a bit of fun about the whole situation(*) rather than being a moody sod or going round in circles about it.


(* - yes I know full well this will come back to bite me on the arse when it's the next headpunting discussion, whatever)

[ali k]

P.s. Can't believe Dunc has puntered me for dreaming about you!

Careful. First punter point is the worst. Think Stu had to undergo therapy

I’m getting some legal advice. This isn’t the end of the story.

[Bonjoy]

It shouldn't be... seen as 'shit flinging'.

This was a reaction to Will Hunt's comment about hoping Dave Mac 'slags' the grade on Lexicon. Maybe tongue in cheek but I do think it reflects a level of gleeful schadenfreude that exists among climbers regarding downgrading. My main objection to this is the distorting effect it has on grading - see old debates about the state of UK bouldering grades at the top end.

To be honest, I think a downgrade is inevitable but my comment was more motivated by a desire to see some rationality applied to something that has probably been a little over-hyped. I can totally understand being psyched off your head for your project, but it always pays to step back, draw breath, and wonder whether something is really as hard/dangerous/good as you thought it was in the moment; to try and present it honestly and to be prepared to have someone make a different assessment of it.

Time and inspection by others will tell. I just hope that they will feel they can give an honest assessment without it being seen as shit-flinging.

But why do you ‘hope’ that’s the outcome of Dave’s attempt? Wouldn’t you rather be proved wrong and it was E11 

[ali k]

Big Issue E8 if you're tall tho, innit?

Not relevant to the point I was making, but if you’re going off topic I’ll take the bait in defence of the taller gentleman! Is this suggested downgrade based on your experience of being (a) tall or (b) short/average height? If the latter then that’s great cos I’ll get busy with the downgrades of stuff I think’s easier for anyone shorter than me (or just upgrade them for me - either way works). So…minus a few exceptions that’ll be ALL routes more than a few degrees overhanging. Plus every sit start boulder problem that exists in the world

[Wellsy]

If it gets downgraded it gets downgraded and balance is restored to the force and Gresh will probably say "fair play hard to assess these things" (to which Dave Mac will say yeah it is but sick effort mate great route) and if it doesn't then it doesn't and Gresh will probably say "ah nice one" and honestly who gives that much of a shit either way when you could be going climbing or having a coffee while thinking about the impermanence of the consciousness or whatever it is you do.