[Dingdong]

So what’s the process for changing the access advice on RAD/UKC? I’m more than happy to volunteer to do admin work if necessary in my free time if it means we can get the message across more quickly.

[Fultonius]

Guidebooks hardly ever get updated and thus access advice isn’t up to date

RAD and UKC haven’t even been updated to reflect to change in access status at wrights rock.

Instagram is where the majority of people consume climbing content - easiest way to let people know of access changes. I always share access advice and changes on my Instagram stories and people regularly message me about the updates so obviously it works. Yet I don’t see many people from UKB posting on their Instagram about access changes, why is that? Some of you have a lot of followers too yet choose not to post anything. I will give a shout-out to people like Dave Mason and Dave Parry who are usually on the ball and good at calling out bad parking or updating people on nesting of birds etc. but majority of people here don’t bother.

Signposting etc should obviously be a part of it but again that’s low hanging fruit. It’s about educating the more casual climbers about changes.

I personally think wrights rock is a bit of a lost cause and should just let it go and learn from it cause people aren’t going to abide by the rules.

I hate Instagram for many reasons, and loathingly use it for some things.

As a pure thought experiment and learning exercise how would I go on the IG and figure out the access situation of a specific location? Or do I just need to follow the feed day in, day out? Would there need to be a specific access page for, say Wrights Rock and updates posted there? if so, who manages it?

These are slightly loaded questions, but I'm fully open to being shown that it is workable through this terrible medium.

[Offwidth]

I get the impression that Wright's might be an early destination for people venturing outdoors. I don't know the area well but have got chatting to a couple of people in that category - up from London, strong as anything, straight out of the gym. By that definition they're going to fall into the 'hard to reach' category. Likely not big UKC readers or RAD checkers. Just as likely to be getting 'news' from Instagram, ie looking at random leaves from a tree, rather than reading the wikipedia entry for that tree.

How do you reach the hard to reach?

I don't get the impression the new to the outdoors are the main problem at Wright's and they are almost certainly not in other recent problem cases.

Having a BMC access page on multiple social media platforms seems inefficient and unworkable to me, everything should point to RAD in my opinion. Posting on the main BMC outputs on especially sensitive issues might work sometimes, and occasionally posting on bans, reminding people of the importance of always checking RAD would be good.  If BMC Instagram posts happened for Wright's (before the latest ban) and all similar cases, it would swamp those BMC media links and require too much duplicate work for the access officers.

We best reach the hard to reach by education. The BMC provide RAD and many educational resources, and Mountain Training teach the issues on courses, but the community need to educate and provide pointers as well.

[spidermonkey09]

Guidebooks hardly ever get updated and thus access advice isn’t up to date

RAD and UKC haven’t even been updated to reflect to change in access status at wrights rock.

Instagram is where the majority of people consume climbing content - easiest way to let people know of access changes. I always share access advice and changes on my Instagram stories and people regularly message me about the updates so obviously it works. Yet I don’t see many people from UKB posting on their Instagram about access changes, why is that? Some of you have a lot of followers too yet choose not to post anything. I will give a shout-out to people like Dave Mason and Dave Parry who are usually on the ball and good at calling out bad parking or updating people on nesting of birds etc. but majority of people here don’t bother.

Signposting etc should obviously be a part of it but again that’s low hanging fruit. It’s about educating the more casual climbers about changes.

I personally think wrights rock is a bit of a lost cause and should just let it go and learn from it cause people aren’t going to abide by the rules.

All this I agree with, but I'll ask again; how do people who consume their climbing media through instagram actually find out where to go and how to get there....?

The answer is they google it, ukc comes up and they ignore the access section. Sure the most recent update isn't on there yet, but all the previous ones were.

Also wtf is the point of an Instagram story on access changes? The thing is gone again in a day!

[Dingdong]

Guidebooks hardly ever get updated and thus access advice isn’t up to date

RAD and UKC haven’t even been updated to reflect to change in access status at wrights rock.

Instagram is where the majority of people consume climbing content - easiest way to let people know of access changes. I always share access advice and changes on my Instagram stories and people regularly message me about the updates so obviously it works. Yet I don’t see many people from UKB posting on their Instagram about access changes, why is that? Some of you have a lot of followers too yet choose not to post anything. I will give a shout-out to people like Dave Mason and Dave Parry who are usually on the ball and good at calling out bad parking or updating people on nesting of birds etc. but majority of people here don’t bother.

Signposting etc should obviously be a part of it but again that’s low hanging fruit. It’s about educating the more casual climbers about changes.

I personally think wrights rock is a bit of a lost cause and should just let it go and learn from it cause people aren’t going to abide by the rules.

I hate Instagram for many reasons, and loathingly use it for some things.

As a pure thought experiment and learning exercise how would I go on the IG and figure out the access situation of a specific location? Or do I just need to follow the feed day in, day out? Would there need to be a specific access page for, say Wrights Rock and updates posted there? if so, who manages it?

These are slightly loaded questions, but I'm fully open to being shown that it is workable through this terrible medium.

You don’t need to have a separate account for wrights access you just need people to come together and share it on their feeds.

Much like how people see news of people sending stuff you would just have news of wrights rocks access change.

A dedicated BMC access channel is not even required, just a post and a share of that post to their story works, you don’t even need to duplicate it to every BMC account, just the local relevant ones. Maybe even scheduling it using an Instagram scheduling tool to post every Thursday/Friday on stories would work and make it an automated process rather than manual.

I also don’t see people who are well known in the community sharing the information either. I’m just a lowly punter but I know my story gets out to a few hundred people so better than nowt.

I also don’t think you need to follow a feed day in day out. Chances are you or a friend will see the news and you or them will let others know through word of mouth.

When the news was posted here by Jim I shared it across my socials and messaged the group chat letting my friends know. They then told others etc etc

Ideally we would all band together as a community and help share this info with others, it’s not that hard I don’t think.

Regarding how people find how to get to crags, most casual climbers I come across and know personally don’t use UKC, they buy a guidebook from their local gym and use that to get about or use the rockfax app which doesn’t include access info (this needs to be an update I think). Those guidebooks don’t have up to date info. These same people all use Instagram regularly and I speak to them through there and I see them share their climbing on there etc

[duncan]

Also posted on UKC:

The Churnet is one of the closest areas to SE England with good outdoor bouldering. It is a popular venue for folk new to bouldering outside. I know these people as I sometimes climb with them. Most of them don't know about the BMC RAD. They primarily use "The App" as they call it - digital RockFax - sometimes augmented by what can be gleaned from the UKC database.

I don't subscribe to digital RockFax but there is enough information visible in the free version to have a productive trip to Wright's. Nowhere in what I can see on the RockFax app for The Churnet in general or Wright's in particular is there any mention of access arrangements.

This is a major omission and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a primary reason behind people not following access requirements.

[remus]

So what’s the process for changing the access advice on RAD/UKC? I’m more than happy to volunteer to do admin work if necessary in my free time if it means we can get the message across more quickly.

Word. It feels like there's a bottle neck in getting RAD updated, and given the info there feeds in to UKC and is meant to be definitive removing that bottleneck seems sensible. I'd be happy to help out with updating it if it would help.

[Fultonius]

@Duncan I've just pointed some of the Rockfax developers to this after checking the downloaded crag page - as you suspect there's no mention of access issues.

[Fultonius]

Guidebooks hardly ever get updated and thus access advice isn’t up to date

RAD and UKC haven’t even been updated to reflect to change in access status at wrights rock.

Instagram is where the majority of people consume climbing content - easiest way to let people know of access changes. I always share access advice and changes on my Instagram stories and people regularly message me about the updates so obviously it works. Yet I don’t see many people from UKB posting on their Instagram about access changes, why is that? Some of you have a lot of followers too yet choose not to post anything. I will give a shout-out to people like Dave Mason and Dave Parry who are usually on the ball and good at calling out bad parking or updating people on nesting of birds etc. but majority of people here don’t bother.

Signposting etc should obviously be a part of it but again that’s low hanging fruit. It’s about educating the more casual climbers about changes.

I personally think wrights rock is a bit of a lost cause and should just let it go and learn from it cause people aren’t going to abide by the rules.

I hate Instagram for many reasons, and loathingly use it for some things.

As a pure thought experiment and learning exercise how would I go on the IG and figure out the access situation of a specific location? Or do I just need to follow the feed day in, day out? Would there need to be a specific access page for, say Wrights Rock and updates posted there? if so, who manages it?

These are slightly loaded questions, but I'm fully open to being shown that it is workable through this terrible medium.

You don’t need to have a separate account for wrights access you just need people to come together and share it on their feeds.

Much like how people see news of people sending stuff you would just have news of wrights rocks access change.

A dedicated BMC access channel is not even required, just a post and a share of that post to their story works, you don’t even need to duplicate it to every BMC account, just the local relevant ones. Maybe even scheduling it using an Instagram scheduling tool to post every Thursday/Friday on stories would work and make it an automated process rather than manual.

I also don’t see people who are well known in the community sharing the information either. I’m just a lowly punter but I know my story gets out to a few hundred people so better than nowt.

I also don’t think you need to follow a feed day in day out. Chances are you or a friend will see the news and you or them will let others know through word of mouth.

When the news was posted here by Jim I shared it across my socials and messaged the group chat letting my friends know. They then told others etc etc

Ideally we would all band together as a community and help share this info with others, it’s not that hard I don’t think.

Regarding how people find how to get to crags, most casual climbers I come across and know personally don’t use UKC, they buy a guidebook from their local gym and use that to get about or use the rockfax app which doesn’t include access info (this needs to be an update I think). Those guidebooks don’t have up to date info. These same people all use Instagram regularly and I speak to them through there and I see them share their climbing on there etc

Honestly, this sounds like a  way of managing access info - feel free to continue doing this, as it clearly augments existing methods and spreads the word but there's no way that can ever be the sole medium for this.

[Dingdong]

Guidebooks hardly ever get updated and thus access advice isn’t up to date

RAD and UKC haven’t even been updated to reflect to change in access status at wrights rock.

Instagram is where the majority of people consume climbing content - easiest way to let people know of access changes. I always share access advice and changes on my Instagram stories and people regularly message me about the updates so obviously it works. Yet I don’t see many people from UKB posting on their Instagram about access changes, why is that? Some of you have a lot of followers too yet choose not to post anything. I will give a shout-out to people like Dave Mason and Dave Parry who are usually on the ball and good at calling out bad parking or updating people on nesting of birds etc. but majority of people here don’t bother.

Signposting etc should obviously be a part of it but again that’s low hanging fruit. It’s about educating the more casual climbers about changes.

I personally think wrights rock is a bit of a lost cause and should just let it go and learn from it cause people aren’t going to abide by the rules.

I hate Instagram for many reasons, and loathingly use it for some things.

As a pure thought experiment and learning exercise how would I go on the IG and figure out the access situation of a specific location? Or do I just need to follow the feed day in, day out? Would there need to be a specific access page for, say Wrights Rock and updates posted there? if so, who manages it?

These are slightly loaded questions, but I'm fully open to being shown that it is workable through this terrible medium.

You don’t need to have a separate account for wrights access you just need people to come together and share it on their feeds.

Much like how people see news of people sending stuff you would just have news of wrights rocks access change.

A dedicated BMC access channel is not even required, just a post and a share of that post to their story works, you don’t even need to duplicate it to every BMC account, just the local relevant ones. Maybe even scheduling it using an Instagram scheduling tool to post every Thursday/Friday on stories would work and make it an automated process rather than manual.

I also don’t see people who are well known in the community sharing the information either. I’m just a lowly punter but I know my story gets out to a few hundred people so better than nowt.

I also don’t think you need to follow a feed day in day out. Chances are you or a friend will see the news and you or them will let others know through word of mouth.

When the news was posted here by Jim I shared it across my socials and messaged the group chat letting my friends know. They then told others etc etc

Ideally we would all band together as a community and help share this info with others, it’s not that hard I don’t think.

Regarding how people find how to get to crags, most casual climbers I come across and know personally don’t use UKC, they buy a guidebook from their local gym and use that to get about or use the rockfax app which doesn’t include access info (this needs to be an update I think). Those guidebooks don’t have up to date info. These same people all use Instagram regularly and I speak to them through there and I see them share their climbing on there etc

Honestly, this sounds like a  way of managing access info - feel free to continue doing this, as it clearly augments existing methods and spreads the word but there's no way that can ever be the sole medium for this.

I didn’t say it’s the sole medium but I believe it’s the easiest way to alert people of changes. Ok here’s what I would do:

1. sign post every path towards wrights rock, with clear and unambiguous language stating the rules: 6 people only at the crag at all times, if you arrive and there are 6 people there already please find alternative venues etc

2. Update the RAD and UKC information more quickly. Maybe speak to UKC about having a pop-up for the crag if access issues change which a user has to click before they can go through to the crag page to see the climbs

3. Have local BMC channels automate a story every Thursday/Friday from a post stating access changes, maybe put a small marketing budget on the side and advertise it to targeted users: climbers, based in London and surrounding areas, age brackets etc

4. Reach out to local influential climbers (in this case London due to its proximity) and ask them to share the access information. Also reach out to local gyms and ask them to maybe put a poster up in their reception areas

5. Work with rockfax to update the app to include RAD and also add a pre-page here showing access issues before users can see the climbs and crags

Those are some ideas.

[steveri]

2. Update the RAD and UKC information more quickly. Maybe speak to UKC about having a pop-up for the crag if access issues change which a user has to click before they can go through to the crag page to see the climbs

The way it typically works is there's an API link from the BMC RAD to UKC, so if there's an update to the RAD it filters across fairly promptly. Not 100% the case - sometimes the link is overridden. Unsure on Rockfax, likely a different primary source. The RAD is a fine thing but as already pointed out, it's a lot to get through with limited resource and approximately a bazillion crags. I've got access permissions for the NW and have dropped a line offering to help out for other regions if it helps. I'd happily update Wright's, but keen to avoid treading on anyone's toes. It could of course be being discussed right now.

[Bonjoy]

I've been away for six days in Scotland with zero phone reception. Hence being unaware of ban  or updating RAD. Currently travelling till late, so will update tomorrow.
Had anyway contacted the office or my email address they would have been redirected to a colleague who would have updated it sooner.
I have been and continue to be in contact with Jim about the access, so he will be aware I've been away if he's tried to call or email.

[Kim]

Oh, just started writing this before you replied Jon.

I can edit the RAD for Peak area bird restrictions - I wouldn't usually want to change anything else without running it by Jon, but I think he's away until tomorrow if i remember rightly. So I've added a note to Wright's.
I think I can see why it's slightly old info pulling through to UKC as well,  as there's a number of different ways to enter info into the RAD and that "user attention" bit goes in a different box to the rest, so maybe doesn't copy over.

[Tom de Gay]

4. Reach out to local influential climbers (in this case London due to its proximity) and ask them to share the access information.

Wright's Rock is in Staffordshire, though being a sandstone crag now banned due to climbers ignoring the access agreement, I can see why you might think it's in the south-east.

[Dingdong]

4. Reach out to local influential climbers (in this case London due to its proximity) and ask them to share the access information.

Wright's Rock is in Staffordshire, though being a sandstone crag now banned due to climbers ignoring the access agreement, I can see why you might think it's in the south-east.

It’s more it’s proximity to London compared to peak. When I lived in London we would regularly go to churnet as opposed to the peak due to the extra hour travel. I’m still aware of lots of friends in London who still go churnet for that reason too, wasn’t a dig at Londoners, more that a lot of Londoners frequent there and it’s low hanging fruit educating at the gyms where they’re based!

[Wellsy]

Dingdong is 100% right about Instagram and Social Media being important platforms for engaging re. Access imo. A lot of new people don't know what UKC or the RAD is at all and wouldn't ever check it.

RAD needs to be better but also like, even if it updated at faster than light speeds, it wouldn't fully solve the problem because there are clearly people who don't know or care.

[SA Chris]

has anyone mentioned Twitter? Set up an account, post live updates on numbers at the crag? I know there are other major issues, but this could be a potential fix for one of them.

[mrjonathanr]

I didn’t say it’s the sole medium but I believe it’s the easiest way to alert people of changes. Ok here’s what I would do:

1. sign post every path towards wrights rock, with clear and unambiguous language stating the rules: 6 people only at the crag at all times, if you arrive and there are 6 people there already please find alternative venues etc

2. Update the RAD and UKC information more quickly. Maybe speak to UKC about having a pop-up for the crag if access issues change which a user has to click before they can go through to the crag page to see the climbs

3. Have local BMC channels automate a story every Thursday/Friday from a post stating access changes, maybe put a small marketing budget on the side and advertise it to targeted users: climbers, based in London and surrounding areas, age brackets etc

4. Reach out to local influential climbers (in this case London due to its proximity) and ask them to share the access information. Also reach out to local gyms and ask them to maybe put a poster up in their reception areas

5. Work with rockfax to update the app to include RAD and also add a pre-page here showing access issues before users can see the climbs and crags

Those are some ideas.

Good ideas, Dingdong.

6. Approach ABC and climbing walls directly and get them to promote using RAD with posters bearing QR codes at reception where people will see it at walls.

[sirlockoff]

I have been bouldering for 8 years and it is the first time I hear about RAD

[Dingdong]

It’s also recently come to my attention that even once a crag is banned you can still log stuff on UKC. Would make sense to turn of logging for banned crags to deter it.

[remus]

It’s also recently come to my attention that even once a crag is banned you can still log stuff on UKC. Would make sense to turn of logging for banned crags to deter it.

IMO that would be a little heavy handed. What if you climbed at the crag when it wasn't banned and wanted to log your ascents?

[Dingdong]

It’s also recently come to my attention that even once a crag is banned you can still log stuff on UKC. Would make sense to turn of logging for banned crags to deter it.

IMO that would be a little heavy handed. What if you climbed at the crag when it wasn't banned and wanted to log your ascents?

Grey out dates post ban?

[Fultonius]

I say let them log - easier to name and shame, like the time waddy climbed on Sron Ulladale despite there being a nesting Eagle ban... 

[ashtond6]

Im firmly in the camp of “we” don’t care so no wonder we lose crags.

At Broomgrove right now, a “crag” I’ve always been very surprised that we can visit…

The window shelf is fully detached and it says Ben Moon stinks/sucks with lots of smiley faces on the windows. We can’t be helped.

Access section on UKC is huge.

I’ve cleaned what I can.

[Ru]

I have been bouldering for 8 years and it is the first time I hear about RAD

Out of interest, how did you check access? For nationwide coverage I'm only aware of RAD and UKC, and UKC directs you to RAD. If you google "crag access" RAD is the first result.