[ali k]

Loved that, great read. Particularly that he was considering down climbing Raindogs in order to have a high first clip on his RPs 

That’s not the first time I’ve seen/heard of this being done. Haven’t read the diary so not sure Steve’s thoughts on it but downclimbing the lower half of a route once so you can have high gear pre-clipped for evermore always seemed a bit dodgy to me.

[NaoB]

 Once upon a time, the ethic was that you could have a high bolt pre clipped, but you had to do the downclimb on the same day as the redpoint. Vickers was just relating the other day how he climbed and then downclimbed 50 for 5 to the clip above the belay after he had redpointed All Out. I asked him what would have happened if he had dropped it? He was like "I wasn't going to drop it, I felt amazing", or words to that effect!

[Bradders]

Loved that, great read. Particularly that he was considering down climbing Raindogs in order to have a high first clip on his RPs 

That’s not the first time I’ve seen/heard of this being done. Haven’t read the diary so not sure Steve’s thoughts on it but downclimbing the lower half of a route once so you can have high gear pre-clipped for evermore always seemed a bit dodgy to me.

Oh that wasn't how I took it, I thought he meant climbing and then down climbing Raindogs before every redpoint attempt! Even that would be dodgy in my opinion but having that apply eternally thereafter seems bizarre.

[shark]

It started off ok with people doing it before the redpoint. Then some did after the redpoint. Then some ticked the downclimb on a separate day. There were examples of people working the downclimb and spending a whole session doing it. Another trick was clipping a long last draw on the up and down climb and replacing it with a normal draw for the redpoint. It was all getting ridiculous and thankfully consigned to history.

[ali k]

It was all getting ridiculous and thankfully consigned to history.

Maybe not! I’ve been witness to the “done the downclimb once” ethic on a top end trad route in the last few years.

[jwi]

It started off ok with people doing it before the redpoint. Then some did after the redpoint. Then some ticked the downclimb on a separate day. There were examples of people working the downclimb and spending a whole session doing it. Another trick was clipping a long last draw on the up and down climb and replacing it with a normal draw for the redpoint. It was all getting ridiculous and thankfully consigned to history.

As I heard it, Markus Bock tried to repeat the short 8c+ next to Dura Dura in Oliana. He did it fairly quickly with the fourth bolt pre-clipped or whatever, but he had linked the route before he had managed to climb up to said draw, clip it and downclimb to the ground. The rest of the visit he spent projecting the downclimb. He never linked the downclimb before he left and has since never been back.

[edit] if this story doesn't get you inspired for redpointing, I do not know what will.[/edit]

[duncan]

Loved that, great read. Particularly that he was considering down climbing Raindogs in order to have a high first clip on his RPs 

That’s not the first time I’ve seen/heard of this being done. Haven’t read the diary so not sure Steve’s thoughts on it but downclimbing the lower half of a route once so you can have high gear pre-clipped for evermore always seemed a bit dodgy to me.

A good read. Down climbing Raindogs is 8b+ if you're running out of things to do at Malham! Steve did it on day 51, when progress had stalled and he was exploring all possibilities to gain an edge. It also made sharing Raindogs with its many suitors a bit easier. Eventually he concluded it wasn't cricket and it wasn't offering an advantage (he was failing at the same point whether he started from the ground or the Raindogs belay if I've understood it correctly). It might have been less easy to be ethically pure if a high first clip had conferred a significant benefit!

I suppose the message to limit redpointers is try everything. I wouldn't know.

[36chambers]

Sorry to go all UKC, but am I right in thinking that the general agreement is that down climbing sport routes to capitalise on preclipping is complete bullshit?

It's interesting to hear Bock was in on it, as I always thought it was an outdated UK-centric quirk stemming from trad practices.

I have a friend who's been carefully preserving the onsight for a particular sport route despite having tied in and climbed the first part over various sessions...

[remus]

Sorry to go all UKC, but am I right in thinking that the general agreement is that down climbing sport routes to capitalise on preclipping is complete bullshit?

It's interesting to hear Bock was in on it, as I always thought it was an outdated UK-centric quirk stemming from trad practices.

I have a friend who's been carefully preserving the onsight for a particular sport route despite having tied in and climbed the first part over various sessions...

If you're happy climbing up and down each time it's legit in my opinion. Say there was a big ledge by the second bolt, it'd obviously be legit (and potentially good tactics, depending on the route) to climb up, clip a couple of high draws above the ledge then down climb to the ledge for a rest before questing on to glory. If it's legit for ledges then why is downclimbing to the ground any different?

Doing the down climb once and then pre-clipping the high draw on subsequent attempts is much more shady in my opinion.

With the onsight, you don't blow it until you've fallen off. Downclimbing is fine.

p.s. maybe worth a thread split to stop Ian's thread going off track?

[Bradders]

As I heard it, Markus Bock tried to repeat the short 8c+ next to Dura Dura in Oliana. He did it fairly quickly with the fourth bolt pre-clipped or whatever, but he had linked the route before he had managed to climb up to said draw, clip it and downclimb to the ground. The rest of the visit he spent projecting the downclimb. He never linked the downclimb before he left and has since never been back.

[edit] if this story doesn't get you inspired for redpointing, I do not know what will.[/edit]

Dear me, what a waste of time! Back around.

I have a friend who's been carefully preserving the onsight for a particular sport route despite having tied in and climbed the first part over various sessions...

They've invalidated the flash there in my opinion, let alone the onsight!

If you're happy climbing up and down each time it's legit in my opinion. Say there was a big ledge by the second bolt, it'd obviously be legit (and potentially good tactics, depending on the route) to climb up, clip a couple of high draws above the ledge then down climb to the ledge for a rest before questing on to glory. If it's legit for ledges then why is downclimbing to the ground any different?

Hmm surely the difference is if you untie from the rope at all. I.e. if you're going back down to a ledge or other rest position yes that's totally legit as you're always on the route, whereas if you come down to the ground and untie, have a cup of tea, go for a wee, etc. and then go back up with very high draws clipped that's quite different non?

Definitely time for a thread split.

[Wil]

Downclimbing, preclipped draws and so on all feels a little underhand and unsatisfying (unless it's just a few moves when it seems logical). We're always going to stretch these things for really hard ascents to eke out every percentage.

Getting into debates about clipping and draws on sport routes all seems so arbitrary though. I don't honesty care if Steve toproped Rainman, it's still 9b! It's a little different on trad where placing and clipping is an inherent part of the game, but on sport it's really just an inconvenience that gets in the way of the physical challenge.

[Will Hunt]

For all the reasons that Remus gave, downclimbing should be fine. Doing the downclimbs on a different day is obviously bullshit and doing it after the fact is also pretty bollocks.
But I can't think of that many situations where it would benefit the average punter. I'm not sure there are that many routes that it would help with where the same advantage couldn't be gained by extending clips to clip faster and/or from better holds.

Grumbling about a bit of downclimbing smacks of grumbling about kneebars - people increasingly see sport climbs as a prescribed sequence of moves and clips, to be completed in a pre-ordained order, rather than bits of rock to be overcome via the solution of least resistance.

[tomtom]

Like grumbling about grades? 😁

[Doylo]

I know a bloke who did Liquid Ambar first 4? clips in. First two are high anyway so 4 is basically half the route. I questioned it when he was up there and he said he was gonna do the down climb after which puzzled me. What if you do the route then slip off the last move of the down climb after and go home, have you done it or not? Then it rains for weeks. I don’t know if he did the down climb at all.

[Will Hunt]

Like grumbling about grades? 😁

Indeed. Much like grumbling about trolling/bullying.

[spidermonkey09]

I know a bloke who did Liquid Ambar first 4? clips in. First two are high anyway so 4 is basically half the route. I questioned it when he was up there and he said he was gonna do the down climb after which puzzled me. What if you do the route then slip off the last move of the down climb after and go home, have you done it or not? Then it rains for weeks. I don’t know if he did the down climb at all.

Didn't Robins do it like this? The footage of him on it in Welsh Connections has about 4 preclipped. I remember clocking it but also not caring as he climbs that section in about 5 seconds.

[36chambers]

p.s. maybe worth a thread split to stop Ian's thread going off track?

+1 (Sorry Ian)

Grumbling about a bit of downclimbing smacks of grumbling about kneebars

If you say so.

For all the reasons that Remus gave, downclimbing should be fine.

The reason that down climbing to the ground, getting off the climb, unclipping, going home, etc., is arguably the same as down climbing to a different point on the climb?

Whether or not it's kosher is obviously not for me to decide. I'd just like to say that I think the whole thing is ridiculous and adds a, completely unnecessary, grey area to climbing terms, which will always be exploited, as we have already seen in this thread.

[remus]

Just seems a bit weird that a certain amount of down climbing is ok (to a ledge), but if you down climb to the ground it's suddenly not ok.

What if there's a low crux with an awkward second clip? To me it seems natural that you could make the awkward second clip, down climb to the ground, recover a bit and then bosh through.

[teestub]

To me it seems natural that you could make the awkward second clip, down climb to the ground, recover a bit and then bosh through.

This is the key bit that muddies the waters with climbing to the ground though innit, you could climb down to the ground, untie and have a kip for a few hours before your red point. If this was the case at a ledge on a route and you find someone to belay you whilst you have a sleep then fair enough.

[36chambers]

Just seems a bit weird that a certain amount of down climbing is ok (to a ledge), but if you down climb to the ground it's suddenly not ok.

It's only the getting off the climb part that I don't agree with

What if there's a low crux with an awkward second clip? To me it seems natural that you could make the awkward second clip, down climb to the ground, recover a bit and then bosh through.

tbh if there's decking potential I'd probably just clip stick it from the go otherwise I'll just have to get that section completely nailed

[Rob F]

Floor is lava... 

[Bradders]

Just seems a bit weird that a certain amount of down climbing is ok (to a ledge), but if you down climb to the ground it's suddenly not ok.

What if there's a low crux with an awkward second clip? To me it seems natural that you could make the awkward second clip, down climb to the ground, recover a bit and then bosh through.

In what world would that even help you? How would downclimbing through the crux of the route be easier than just carrying on?

Although as 36C says, I'd just clip stick it anyway.

[Rob F]

Love it that the UKB Crew will spend hours examining every pixel for the faintest hint of a blade of grass brushing someone's non tucked in t-shirt on the boulders, but once a rope's involved then it's fine to touch down have 2 massages, 3 cream scones and review every clip on utube before continuing with the onsight effort... 

[Fiend]

Like any of the sport climbing scrawns eat cream scones 

Just seems a bit weird that a certain amount of down climbing is ok (to a ledge), but if you down climb to the ground it's suddenly not ok.

This. It's all very UKC-style pedantry, being overly fixated on the letter of the ethical "law" rather than the spirit of it. Are you doing the climb under your own steam? Are you solely using the gear for protection and not weighting it? Are you sticking to the true line and not escaping? Does it feel like a voyage of discovery (for the onsight) regardless if you go up and down a bit? Is the 2 massages / 3 spinach-wrapped sardines / quick Zoom consultation with Lattice option infinitely more interesting and exciting than sticking a rope down it?? Of course it fucking is....

[abarro81]

Best bit of this thread is boulderers arguing about something that mostly affects trad onsighting. I watched caff downclimb half the leap on boat to naxos in about 07, pretty sure he finished off the onsight a few years later. I'll leave it to those who find 6cs scary to tell him he redpointed it.