[nik at work]

I’m hoping there’s some triathlists out here...

Somehow over the last year or so I have gone from refusing to entertain the idea of road biking or running, and barely swimming aside from the odd pootle in the sea to entering a triathlon... still not really sure what happened to be honest...

Anyway it’s the Hellvelyn Tri and as I’ve never done a Tri before I was wondering if anybody has any general Tri tips, and if anyone has done the Hellvelyn before if they have any specific pointers?

I’m not trying to break records or anything, just having a grand day out with a bunch of friends (there are about 30 entrants from the village).

[SA Chris]

Don't do it. Entering the Triathlons rabbit hole is one of the most effective ways of draining time and money from your life!

You haven't chosen an easy one for your first have you? I'd say hire as much kit as you can for your first, and rehearse transitions, you can save a lot of time.

And if you haven't done much endurance events before, try out nutrition options to see what works for you best. Worth finding out what will be available at refuelling stops to see if it agrees with you; for London Marathon eg they gave out Lucozade sport which I hated at first (too sweet!), but forced myself to get used to it, but my partner just couldn't so carried her own Tailwind. Experiment and see how you get on with different gels, bars, sweets.

[webbo]

I take it you have a wetsuit for the swim. Vaseline round the neck and any places it might rub. As it’s your  first and you not out to win it, it’s worth having the right clothing for each discipline I.e padded cycle shorts and cycle top for the ride.
Normally you would just wear a tri suit under your wetsuit and do the whole race in that but that’s probably something you will be looking to buy on the Monday after your race.
You could put toggles on the laces of your running shoes to speed up getting them on, also if you plan to run without socks talcum powder in them helps.
When you get off the bike and start to run give yourself about half a mile to get up to pace rather than sprint out of the transition.
Make sure you eat and drink while on the bike.
That’s all I can think of for the moment.

[J_duds]

What distance are you doing?
Will you swim in a wetsuit?

I have done 1 tri that had a sea swim, and the best prep i did was:
1. Swimming (this was my slowest of the 3 exercises) - so I got a 121 coached swimming session, which I found useful, it taught me to breath and pace myself during front crawl.
2. I went open water swimming a lot, this allowed me to get use to swimming in a wet suit which is a lot different to trunks.
3. Build up to double exercise back to back sessions - for example I'd go swimming, then within 10mins I'd be on a bike or out running; or I'd cycle 40km then within 10mins I'd be running 10km. These felt like they built the endurance to keep going, and really helped on the day when you do the 3 exercises.
4. Also practice the transitions, getting out of wetsuit can take some time!
5. On the day - if its anything like the Pembroke coast tri, there will be professionals and serious triathletes there who for them it is there main sport, so don't be put off by the egos, their setup and speed!

I've only done 1 tri which whilst i enjoyed I have no plans for another as I can't face training for swimming again! I do a lot more open water swimming in my wet suit then before the tri, but I cant face the swim training to get back to a good speed. I'd rather go climbing (or cycle as my arms injured)!

[Oldmanmatt]

What distance are you doing?
Will you swim in a wetsuit?

I have done 1 tri that had a sea swim, and the best prep i did was:
1. Swimming (this was my slowest of the 3 exercises) - so I got a 121 coached swimming session, which I found useful, it taught me to breath and pace myself during front crawl.
2. I went open water swimming a lot, this allowed me to get use to swimming in a wet suit which is a lot different to trunks.
3. Build up to double exercise back to back sessions - for example I'd go swimming, then within 10mins I'd be on a bike or out running; or I'd cycle 40km then within 10mins I'd be running 10km. These felt like they built the endurance to keep going, and really helped on the day when you do the 3 exercises.
4. Also practice the transitions, getting out of wetsuit can take some time!
5. On the day - if its anything like the Pembroke coast tri, there will be professionals and serious triathletes there who for them it is there main sport, so don't be put off by the egos, their setup and speed!

I've only done 1 tri which whilst i enjoyed I have no plans for another as I can't face training for swimming again! I do a lot more open water swimming in my wet suit then before the tri, but I cant face the swim training to get back to a good speed. I'd rather go climbing (or cycle as my arms injured)!

Swim training, for me, has always been about  “time on task”. I guess getting a coach is a good way to short circuit the process, but plodding along, getting comfortable with your breathing and stroke, in a variety of conditions, just leafs to getting faster over time.
Caveat, I’m not a Triathlete.
Can’t imagine spending money on a bike that you can’t jump off cliffs on.
Or wearing lycra.

[nik at work]

Thanks for the input folks, UKB delivers as ever.

I think I have all the equipment so shouldn’t need to hire anything. I’ve got a wetsuit, not an especially pimp swimming wetsuit or anything, but probably appropriate for my swimming level... Vaseline tip sounds good though.

Nutrition is a good call Chris, prob an area I am under prepared for.

The distances are:
Swim 1500m (2x750 lap open water in Ullswater lake)
Bike 39* miles with a reasonable amount of up, including “the struggle” which a seemingly a bit infamous.
Run 9 miles, up and down Hellvelyn, several sources have suggested that for most mortals it is a walk up a hill with a bit of scrambling followed by a run down.

I’m not going to get into Tri (he says...) so not looking to get a load of gear. I have use of a perfectly serviceable road bike (the girlfriends spare bike) and have a basic selection of cycling clothing and felling running shoes. My plan is to get changed in both transitions, swim in wetsuit, cycle in cycle shorts/leggings and run in shorts (got a big change towel to protect the innocent). Not bothered about losing a bit of time in transition for a bit of comfort.
Went up to the lakes last weekend and planned to ride the bike course, but timing issues meant only did the struggle. Drove the rest of the course though and it seems fine (A66 is fkn busy though, not looking forward to that section). Also walked up Hellvelyn via the run route (with obligatory nav error) and then ran/walked down. Quite SYKED for the run. The run/scramble up swirral edge looks tremendous fun!!
Did a bit of swimming in a lake as well which was cold but fine, I’m ok with open water all of my recent swimming prior to tri entry was in the sea. Have been hitting the (outdoor) pool in flotation shorts as an approximation of wetsuit.
Swim is my weakest event by a fair margin I’d say. Currently I am a non-crawl swimmer. My breaststroke is reasonable, I’d do the course distance in somewhere between 27-30 minutes breaststroke and feel pretty fresh getting out of the water. Not electric pace but probably as fast as some people’s crawl? If O tried to crawl I’d drown. What’s the etiquette on the swim, will I be hated if I breaststroke? I know it’s technically a less efficient stroke and more leg intensive but for me personally it is waaaaaay less effort than crawl and much faster.
As there’s a bit of a local crew doing it a series of informal relaxed tri training events have been organised, did the first one last week. Swam 1500, bike 20-odd hilly miles, ran 7 hilly miles. All with relaxed (5-10min) “transitions”. Was at a relaxed pace and felt steady. Think the plan is to ramp up the distance and speed a bit.

Sorry for waffling on, I think there were some questions in there. If anybody has answers or opinions I’m all ears.

[SA Chris]

I was going to say, for crawl, learn to breathe on both sides - this was a really bad habit of mine until about 5 years ago. If wind and waves are coming from your breathing side, you will really struggle if you can't do both. If you are only doing beast stroke it's academic. Worth trying to mix up stokes a bit though. As long as you get in the water towards the back and don't get in anyone's way I'm sure no-one will be bothered what you do as long as you make cutoff.

Mix your running and cycling with hill reps if you are short on time. You will hate them at the time but be thankful on the day.

[steveri]

I doubt anyone would be fussed if you swam breastroke. If you can crawl though it saves your legs a bit - you might want them later. If you get into crawl, there's an extra skill keeping a vaguely straight line without a black line on the bottom to follow. Worth practising jumping straight off the bike and going for a run, etc (rather than training everything separately). Be prepared for a bit of scrum if it's a mass start.

I've only done a handful and don't really get the geeky/buy your way out of trouble thing some tris suffer. I like the offroad ones I've done ...Helvellyn looks a corker

[webbo]

If you are swimming breast stroke DON’T start near the front unless you want to get involved in triathlons hidden forth discipline boxing. People will just swim over you battering you as they do.
Given the current weather I would be cautious about getting cold after the swim so carrying a waterproof might be advisable.
I was got hypothermia in the Yorkshire Dales triathlon by getting very cold on the bike due not be able to a cycling top after the swim.Then thinking that the reason I was go slow was because I wasn’t trying hard enough, rather than I was running out of fuel.

[webbo]

Just seen it September so the weather might have improved by then

[nik at work]

I think the start is staggered this year (Covid), so we’ll be going off at 5 second intervals. Swim cut off is something like 30mins after the last person enters the water for their second lap. So should be pretty academic for most people.

I probably should put some effort into developing a notional ability at crawl I suppose. But I draw the line at hill reps 😂😂
(I’m happy that I can do the ride and run in combination reasonably comfortably as long as I don’t go out too hard)
Thanks for the suggestions everyone, should be a classic grand day out 😁

And yes, slightly better weather would be nice...

[SA Chris]

they call back to back training a brick, no idea why. Maybr because you need to be as thick as one to get involved in tris in the first place.

Duathlons are much easier btw, if you suck at swimming like me. Or SUP, bike, swims.

[Paul B]

Bike 39* miles with a reasonable amount of up, including “the struggle” which a seemingly a bit infamous.
Run 9 miles, up and down Hellvelyn, several sources have suggested that for most mortals it is a walk up a hill with a bit of scrambling followed by a run down.

You can always make life easier/more certain for yourself with a decent cassette or choice of ratios.

[Andy F]

Triathlon advice: Don't do it. That shit'll fuck you up big style.

[SA Chris]

Maan, that shit fuck you up like Percocet

[nik at work]

Andy/Chris I should imagine it probably will...

Paul I’m not overly worried about the ride to be honest. It suits me far more than a mostly flat course. Being small I lack the max power level that the big units can put down on the level, but am suited to the climbs.
Same story on the run really, I’m much more suited to steep technical ascents and descents than pure running ability on the flat.

I’m guessing that there may be a few “pure” triathletes who will get a bit of a shock at the climbing in the ride and scrambling in the run??

[Paul B]

Andy/Chris I should imagine it probably will...

Paul I’m not overly worried about the ride to be honest. It suits me far more than a mostly flat course. Being small I lack the max power level that the big units can put down on the level, but am suited to the climbs.
Same story on the run really, I’m much more suited to steep technical ascents and descents than pure running ability on the flat.

Fair enough, I'd just be thinking I'd want/need the ability to ensure I stay well below threshold with so much other activity on the day but what do I know, you won't catch me running anywhere (although there's plenty of time). Gels work even if they're not pleasant things.

[SA Chris]

I’m guessing that there may be a few “pure” triathletes who will get a bit of a shock at the climbing in the ride and scrambling in the run??

You cling to that hope. Unless the swim is overly steep they will leave you in their wake

[nik at work]

I’m well aware of how left in the wake I will be by anyone with a halfway reasonable swim... I do think some entrants might have a bit of a gibber at swirral edge, but they’ll be so far ahead of me I won’t actually get to see it...

Paul, completely agree with your thoughts on gearing/threshold and such like. What I mean is I rode the struggle last weekend with my current cassette/gearing and it felt comfortable and steady with the setup I have in place. Not suggesting I don’t need to have the right gearing, more that I already do if you see what I mean 😁

[SA Chris]

https://www.facebook.com/GlenClovaXtremeDuathlon

If you decide the swimming bit sucks, this is a great event, stunning area and you can bag 2 munros on the course, then beer and party at Clova Hotel Afterwards.. I'm temped to do it again, depending what other events happen this Autumn.

[nik at work]

That’s the weekend after Hellvelyn, I suspect I’ll still be broken. I’m also at a wedding on the Isle of Man that weekend, will bear it in mind for next year though 😁

[webbo]

My first Triathlon was the now defunct Yorkshire Dales. Which was 800metre swim in Semer water, 42 very hilly miles on the bike 1 in 4 climb to start from the lake, Buttertubs pass and Garsdale head and few others. 11 mile run up Pen y gent.
I thought I would piss it having done a lot of cycle racing and a bit of fell running. Half way through the bike leg I was going to sell my bike if and when I finished. I got off the bike in 10th place with my mate telling me just to reel everyone in on the run. This proved a bit difficult due to my legs feeling like they were up to my waist in treacle.
I managed to finish about 20th. The guy who won also had won the Three peaks cyclocross and fell race. Most of the top 20 were people who specialised in tough triathlons or were fell runners who could ride a bike.

[Paul B]

I thought I would piss it having done a lot of cycle racing and a bit of fell running. Half way through the bike leg I was going to sell my bike if and when I finished. I got off the bike in 10th place with my mate telling me just to reel everyone in on the run. This proved a bit difficult due to my legs feeling like they were up to my waist in treacle.

This was my point really; I did a few of the Lakeland passes last year with my Dad and found them absolutely fine. Later on in the year I strung them all together and kept pressing my shifters hoping the bike had grown an extra few easier gears (Hardknott I'm looking at you...).

A mild power bark saw me through the hardest section but by the finest of margins.

[Oldmanmatt]

A mild power bark saw me through the hardest section but by the finest of margins.

A what?

[nik at work]

I’m definitely not thinking “I’ll piss it” or that I’ll finish 10th, or 20th or anything like that. Top half would be amazing but just after a grand day out. When I say I’m happy with the ride and run I mean that as long as I take it steady I’m confident that if I make it out of the water, barring injury or incident, I can make it to the end before cut off. Of course if I go off like a loon I’ll blow up quickly and it’ll be no fun. Hopefully I’ll not do that...

And also completely agree that linking lots of big climbs together is very different to getting up one hill, both on bike and foot.

I’ve only drive up Hardknott not ridden it but I suspect it’s a fair step up from the struggle (especially if you’re heading up it at the end of a ride...)

[Falling Down]

Nik - If it's not until September and you can swim regularly, you might have plenty of time to learn to crawl comfortably.  We're a similar age so I'm guessing we we taught badly at school and your crawl is probably a sprint style for 25m badges. Whenever I would try and swim crawl as an adult, it'd feel horrible and panicky as if I was drowning.  The pool style breathe under your armpit thing is useless for swimming in open water and the energy expended in pulling and kicking is enormous. 

After watching some older open water swimmers back in the 90's I decided to learn what they were doing and haven't looked back. Terry Laughlin's book 'Total Immersion' was enough for me and I bet there are better books around now.  Being able to crawl languidly without getting out of breath and in choppy water is brilliant.

[nik at work]

Whenever I would try and swim crawl as an adult, it'd feel horrible and panicky as if I was drowning.

This is exactly how I feel

I think I will put in the effort to try and learn an effective crawl style. My breaststroke is an easy fall back option if needed so, as you point out, I certainly have the time to try and crack it. A 5 minute walk to an outdoor pool and a few wild swim spots within a short drive means I don’t have any good excuses really. Thanks for the encouragement/push 😁

[tomtom]

Being able to crawl languidly without getting out of breath and in choppy water is brilliant.

That sounds excellent

[Oldmanmatt]

Whenever I would try and swim crawl as an adult, it'd feel horrible and panicky as if I was drowning.

This is exactly how I feel

I think I will put in the effort to try and learn an effective crawl style. My breaststroke is an easy fall back option if needed so, as you point out, I certainly have the time to try and crack it. A 5 minute walk to an outdoor pool and a few wild swim spots within a short drive means I don’t have any good excuses really. Thanks for the encouragement/push 😁

With the caveat that learning to swim crawl well and sorting out the breathing to be able to do long distance in open water, is your best option; there is a reason we don’t use crawl as the preferred stroke for distance in open sea.
I just thought I’d put that out there, for those that really don’t like the crawl or seriously struggle with the breathing (which can be very difficult in rougher sea states).

It can be difficult to perfect a totally new stroke, though. I was already a county class swimmer before joining up and I struggled to shift to the stroke at first, especially as I went straight into the Navy squad.

[webbo]

When I started to do triathlons I couldn’t really swim front crawl and to this day I am still pretty crap. However I did persevere at it and was able to swim 2.4 miles in open water doing it, I never got very fast at it but in open water wearing a wetsuit it was a lot less fatiguing than swimming breast stroke. I can breathe on either side as well as breathing on alternate sides but I found it easier just to stick to side that was natural. Generally if the water is that rough that it will stop you breathing on any side the swim will get cancelled.
I did get a bit of coaching in regard to my stroke but even then 30 years ago everyone commented on how stiff my shoulders were. Climbing is not best preparation for swimming.
What I would do if I was 30 again and starting out I would do a lot more weight training. As if you can’t get supple get strong.

[Paul B]

I’ve only drive up Hardknott not ridden it but I suspect it’s a fair step up from the struggle (especially if you’re heading up it at the end of a ride...)

Indeed. A guy driving a classic mini stopped wound his window down, looked concerned and wished me the best of luck (wholeheartedly). I'd kidded myself that doing a similar length ride around Lancashire in May having done the best to match the gradients at various points in the ride I'd be fine. I'd never been up it on a bike or in a car (perhaps I had done the latter when <10yrs old).

A what?

See Dobbin mid redpoint; when a power scream just isn't possible. The noise a small wounded animal might make when in distress etc.

[Oldmanmatt]

A what?

See Dobbin mid redpoint; when a power scream just isn't possible. The noise a small wounded animal might make when in distress etc.

Ahhh... right.

Yeah, have to do that when I’m half out of bed, most mornings, these days.

[nik at work]

Well a brief resurrection of this thread. The tri is this weekend, hopefully I’ll survive it and will post a brief match report next week but just in case this is a quick thanks for all the various hints and tips.
I’ve just been informed that the swim is now no longer 5s interval starts but rather 4 mass groups, this does not fill me with joy…

Anyway swim training has been woefully inadequate, but I can now manage to crawl reasonably effectively in a “languid” style, not at any great speed mind. Ultimately I think I’ll end up doing a combo of crawl and breast. But thanks for all the encouragement to try and master crawl, even if my swimming is still relatively weak crawl no longer fills me with drown-dread.

I’m also lacking in bike miles and certainly not enough long rides, but feel happier with my baseline bike ability compared to swimming so hoping this will see me through.

Running I’ve actually managed to do a reasonable amount, and also done brick sessions which have gone from “treacle leg stumbling” at the start of the run through to… well still “treacle leg running” but at least now I’m used to it…

So, I imagine like most people, I’m not as prepared as I’d like to be but probably prepared enough…

Thanks again for the tips, see you Monday…

[SA Chris]

You done some practice changeovers? worth doing once or twice just so you know a general order of doing things and have things laid out and ready.

Also you sorted for nutrition? Never try something new on race day.

These will count more than any more training at this stage.

You'll be reet.

[steveri]

Just go out and have some fun, don’t drown, enjoy the ‘running with someone else’s legs’ feeling. First go? Guaranteed PB.

[nik at work]

Nutrition is a great shout Chris. It’s something I’ve had sorted for a while due to a long history of delicate internals, but appreciate the reminder. The “don’t try anything new on race day” tip is probably one of the best IMHO, and probably/possibly oft ignored??

I like the sound of the guaranteed PB 😁

[SA Chris]

If you use caffeinated gels, save them 'til the end of the run section, make sure you know what your "window" is. I normally avoid until within 5km of finish line..

[webbo]

I would think that it’s fairly pointless taking on any food/gels with 5K to go. You will be finished before it takes effect. Unless you’ve completely blown and are walking or crawling.

[SA Chris]

Accept it may be purely psychological, but sure a caffeine hit helps me with a fast finish

[nik at work]

I survived!!

Overall time of 4:45

71st in my class and 190 overall out of 700. Pretty pleased with that overall as a first effort.

A few thoughts:
Swim
The swim was carnage!! I suspect the course was shorter than 1500m given the times people posted. Mass starts are chaos, but it never felt unsafe or unpleasant. Ended up quite enjoying it, rather than just wanting to get it out of the way. Hot weather last week meant the water temp was actually really pleasant. Would definitely have benefitted from more swim training, did enough to get round but imagine a bit more technique/training would fairly quickly see speed improve.

Bike
This is not a hilly bike route. It has one reasonable length fairly gradual climb and the struggle. Otherwise it’s a flat/rolling up and down course. On both hills I went past loads of people. But I am so shit on the flat, that I also got passed a few times. Definitely made up a lot of places on the bike. The hills felt fine, but not only do I have no speed on the flat I also find it exhausting. Got off the bike more beasted than I expected. Definitely could have done with more riding training, longer, pacy rides needed.

The run
Everybody walks up it seems. I power walked up passing quite a few people, and then running down passed lots of hesitant runners on the unstable ground. Managed to go under 2 hours (and was 10 minutes faster than the next person in my group of friends) so was quite happy with that. But a shame the bike beasted me quite so much, I think 1:45 and more running up are achievable with just a bit more endurance. The run down is brutal. I really enjoy running down hill, but 4.5 of relentless hard unstable rocky ground is punishing stuff. Apparently I looked pretty fresh when I crossed the finish line (didn’t feel it though…)

TL/DR
Was bloody brilliant, planning to be back next year with some actual proper training under my belt.

Anyway thanks again for the various tips and comments. I would 100% recommend the tri to anyone who fancies it, a brilliant brilliant event, and the support was so so so good. Coming up the struggle felt like being in the Tour de France, and people had walked up Helvellyn just to cheer everyone on. Amazing.

[SA Chris]

Good Work Nik.

Might as well get another one in while you are on a roll

https://durtyevents.com/our-events/craggy-island-triathlon/ (worth it for the name alone)

Mates have done this and loved it.

[nik at work]

That does look ace!!
Probably can’t squeeze it in this year but will definitely stick it on the list.

[Paul B]

Nice one Nik! Sounds brutal to me.

Bike
This is not a hilly bike route. It has one reasonable length fairly gradual climb and the struggle. Otherwise it’s a flat/rolling up and down course. On both hills I went past loads of people. But I am so shit on the flat, that I also got passed a few times. Definitely made up a lot of places on the bike. The hills felt fine, but not only do I have no speed on the flat I also find it exhausting. Got off the bike more beasted than I expected. Definitely could have done with more riding training, longer, pacy rides needed.

I don't know what your winter plans are but if it's something you're inclined to do I've found the turbo to produce improvements year on year (without a ridiculous time input).

How's your riding position (forearms nice and parallel to the floor etc.)?

I think generally this happens to lighter people though, I know Peewee has made this observation in his club rides where on the hills he disappears off (W/kg) but struggles to hold the wheel of bigger guys (absolute W) on the flat.

[nik at work]

Got to be honest and say the idea of turbo sessions leaves me completely cold.

As for my riding position I imagine I’m probably sat up in a completely non aero position (and wearing an enormous sail of a MTB helmet), no TT bars or such like. There is loads of room for technical improvement I’m sure. I guess I’m always going to be relatively slow on the flat/gently rolling ground given the limits of my absolute power (despite reasonable power to weight) but should still be able to make gains. I’m relatively new to road biking (less than 18 months) and riding in the Peak it’s mostly hills, and I guess pretty much all of my rides are “social” so sat up chatting on the flat and only putting a bit of effort in on the hills. Actually doing some proper training rides and getting position etc will help (for next year…).

[SA Chris]

If you want a serious look at it, a pro bike fit might be worthwhile. I got one done cheaply as the guy had to do some as part of qualification. My setup (done by bloke in Evans when i bought bike) was pretty much spot on, just had my saddle slid backwards an inch, but it made a lot of difference to comfort and power.

Other easy option is the standard MAMIL approach and get a better bike!

[Johnny Brown]

  The pool style breathe under your armpit thing is useless for swimming in open water and the energy expended in pulling and kicking is enormous.

After watching some older open water swimmers back in the 90's I decided to learn what they were doing and haven't looked back. Terry Laughli 's book 'Total Immersion' was enough for me and I bet there are better books around now.  Being able to crawl languidly without getting out of breath and in choppy water is brilliant.

Quite intrigued by this, though a quick youtube hasn't brought up any videos where people aren't breathing under their armpit. Are you talking about subtle changes to the stroke or something quite radical like this:   

Edit: found some Terry Laughlin videos, above seems to be an evolution of the style. Keen to try it!

[Falling Down]

Yeah that's it, rotation.  It doesn't feel that radical once you get used to it.  I tend to breathe on each side on the third stroke, and if the water's choppy you can just stick to the leeward side to prevent swallowing water. You can really feel the stretch and glide that he talks about in the video.

[Johnny Brown]

Great thanks! Definitely keen to try and get the hang of that.

[Paul B]

Got to be honest and say the idea of turbo sessions leaves me completely cold.

Nah, you'll soon warm up, it's surprising 

[cowboyhat]

Seems like a good opportunity to revisit one of my favourite youtube videos:




Triathlon is for people who don't already have a proper hobby.

[SA Chris]

and too much money and time.

[nik at work]

 
I have just done a triathlon, I am by no measure a triathlete…

[SA Chris]

Yeah, I keep telling myself I just go running.