[Fiend]

Fair point Reeve. I was suggesting that the rigorous academic might be less susceptible to going down such harmful paths due to more chance of scrutinising the issues involved, but yes in retrospect it's fair that intellectuals are just as capable of missing common sense and self-care.

[Offwidth]

As a UCU rep part of my role was to help academics and it used to drive me nuts that basic things that most ordinary intelligent people picked up quickly, too often moved in treacle in academic minds... be it avoiding various issues that might damage their health (overwork/overuse/working when ill,  pointless but stressful fights), to basic financial planning (especially pensions). The only thing I could think of to explain it was it wasn't 'interesting'. Some academic diets were dreadful, which was very dangerous to health when combined with working long hours with few holidays.

[mrjonathanr]

I think mrjothanr is a professional and I would agree with what he said. However these days I’m an ex professional.

Sorry, if I seemed too authoritative, I am not a professional in this field. I teach (secondary), but this is an issue I have seen in more than one context.

I would not like to go beyond what I am qualified to comment on. However, the seriousness of the illness and devastating outcomes I feel are pretty much beyond debate.

When you are talking about a condition where someone can literally starve themself to death, or live for years on the edge of doing so, it seems obvious that we are talking about very serious mental illness.

I see disordered eating as having much more to do with control rather than food in and of itself.  Food can become a vehicle of control. That’s a hard habit to kick.

I am not a mental health professional though, please bear that in mind.

[Fiend]

I've been requested to post the following from someone with experience in the field:

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My non-critical opinion is that there’s not much understanding and too much paternalism. To take an "anti ED" stance as the video (which I didn’t really like) and UKB do, is to say eating disorders are bad, eating more healthily is good, and ‘the community’ should promote good. A lot of therapies work with this idea as fact. Another way to think about this is externalising the problem. You are separate to your eating disorder, which is something to be treated.

This is problematic for many people as the eating disorder (if it even makes sense to call it that) is congruent with their sense of self (ego-syntonic). By creating a blanket approach of externalising there is a significant proportion of people who will experience increased distress as part of them is split off and pathologised by the other (community or whoever). For some people the act of restriction, exercise control and purging has been the most successful thing in keeping them together. For example cleansing the system to cope with past trauma.

So talking about a community that is ‘riddled’ with EDs and body dysmorphia that needs to be dealt with will do little to help the significant majority. The same can be said for any self harming difficulties. For example, would anyone say the climbing community is riddled with ‘self harm’? Doesn’t sound so great huh. Raising awareness in this way is virtue signalling as per a recent UKC thread.

People should be afforded their eating disorders just as they should be afforded suicidal thoughts. Nietzsche’s quote about this was something like ‘thoughts of suicide have got me through many a long night’

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(This is not my comment so I can't reply to it nor expand on it further, sorry)

[sheavi]

Really good points made.

I've been requested to post the following from someone with experience in the field:

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My non-critical opinion is that there’s not much understanding and too much paternalism. To take an "anti ED" stance as the video (which I didn’t really like) and UKB do, is to say eating disorders are bad, eating more healthily is good, and ‘the community’ should promote good. A lot of therapies work with this idea as fact. Another way to think about this is externalising the problem. You are separate to your eating disorder, which is something to be treated.

This is problematic for many people as the eating disorder (if it even makes sense to call it that) is congruent with their sense of self (ego-syntonic). By creating a blanket approach of externalising there is a significant proportion of people who will experience increased distress as part of them is split off and pathologised by the other (community or whoever). For some people the act of restriction, exercise control and purging has been the most successful thing in keeping them together. For example cleansing the system to cope with past trauma.

So talking about a community that is ‘riddled’ with EDs and body dysmorphia that needs to be dealt with will do little to help the significant majority. The same can be said for any self harming difficulties. For example, would anyone say the climbing community is riddled with ‘self harm’? Doesn’t sound so great huh. Raising awareness in this way is virtue signalling as per a recent UKC thread.

People should be afforded their eating disorders just as they should be afforded suicidal thoughts. Nietzsche’s quote about this was something like ‘thoughts of suicide have got me through many a long night’

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(This is not my comment so I can't reply to it nor expand on it further, sorry)

[teestub]

I've been requested to post the following from someone with experience in the field:

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Was that Cheetham?

[mrjonathanr]

Those points lie at the heart matter don't they? Thank you to Fiend and whoever wrote that.

[webbo]

I've been requested to post the following from someone with experience in the field:

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My non-critical opinion is that there’s not much understanding and too much paternalism. To take an "anti ED" stance as the video (which I didn’t really like) and UKB do, is to say eating disorders are bad, eating more healthily is good, and ‘the community’ should promote good. A lot of therapies work with this idea as fact. Another way to think about this is externalising the problem. You are separate to your eating disorder, which is something to be treated.

This is problematic for many people as the eating disorder (if it even makes sense to call it that) is congruent with their sense of self (ego-syntonic). By creating a blanket approach of externalising there is a significant proportion of people who will experience increased distress as part of them is split off and pathologised by the other (community or whoever). For some people the act of restriction, exercise control and purging has been the most successful thing in keeping them together. For example cleansing the system to cope with past trauma.

So talking about a community that is ‘riddled’ with EDs and body dysmorphia that needs to be dealt with will do little to help the significant majority. The same can be said for any self harming difficulties. For example, would anyone say the climbing community is riddled with ‘self harm’? Doesn’t sound so great huh. Raising awareness in this way is virtue signalling as per a recent UKC thread.

People should be afforded their eating disorders just as they should be afforded suicidal thoughts. Nietzsche’s quote about this was something like ‘thoughts of suicide have got me through many a long night’

------

(This is not my comment so I can't reply to it nor expand on it further, sorry)

That’s fine if you want to watch someone die of massive organ failure.

[Will Hunt]

I've been requested to post the following from someone with experience in the field:

------

My non-critical opinion is that there’s not much understanding and too much paternalism. To take an "anti ED" stance as the video (which I didn’t really like) and UKB do, is to say eating disorders are bad, eating more healthily is good, and ‘the community’ should promote good. A lot of therapies work with this idea as fact. Another way to think about this is externalising the problem. You are separate to your eating disorder, which is something to be treated.

This is problematic for many people as the eating disorder (if it even makes sense to call it that) is congruent with their sense of self (ego-syntonic). By creating a blanket approach of externalising there is a significant proportion of people who will experience increased distress as part of them is split off and pathologised by the other (community or whoever). For some people the act of restriction, exercise control and purging has been the most successful thing in keeping them together. For example cleansing the system to cope with past trauma.

So talking about a community that is ‘riddled’ with EDs and body dysmorphia that needs to be dealt with will do little to help the significant majority. The same can be said for any self harming difficulties. For example, would anyone say the climbing community is riddled with ‘self harm’? Doesn’t sound so great huh. Raising awareness in this way is virtue signalling as per a recent UKC thread.

People should be afforded their eating disorders just as they should be afforded suicidal thoughts. Nietzsche’s quote about this was something like ‘thoughts of suicide have got me through many a long night’

------

(This is not my comment so I can't reply to it nor expand on it further, sorry)

I understand the theory but that model doesn't seem to leave any room for treating a disorder. Are you saying that people shouldn't be treated? Should people be afforded all their teeth falling out from their bulimia; should they be afforded their fertility problems?

[reeve]

I could be wrong, but it sounds to me like the quoteD ANonymous is conflating paternalism with compassion. Of course, no one can be made to change their behaviour - eating behaviour or otherwise. But I haven't seen anyone here suggest that treatment should be enforced (which would be paternalistic, although in extreme situations does of course happen under the mental health act). What has been suggested are ways to change the social environment to be less reinforcing of disordered eating and less critical of body shapes which are not crimp waifs.

It is entirely possible to hold the view that disordered eating is undesirable and physically unhealthy and understand the reasons for its onset (as a way of managing expectations, to regulate upsetting emotions, achievement, helping you feel that you fit in, or whatever may be the unique experience of that individual)

[IanP]

Late to reply to latest stuff - Amy had a read earlier, quick reaction was, I like MrJonathanr and Reeve, whoever Fiend is posting for can p*ss off!

More seriously, she wants to say that people with EDs can be someone you might meet everyday and never know that anything was wrong. In her case she was very aware of her issues and could articulate them very well but that didn't allow her to stop or manage them despite the pain they were causing.  On the issue of medicalisation/pathologisation her experience was that it was actually really difficult to get medical support, with some really unhelpful experiences with the NHS before she managed to find a ED charity who showed undertstanding and could provide assistence including referral for blood tests etc - fortunately we had a close and pretty honest relationship which allowed us to support as best we could.   

Amy - Hi, so I've been reading this forum as I think its so important for conversations about eatings disorders, disordered eating and body image issues to be open, and not be hidden away as if it is a shameful thing to be struggling with.
I struggled masisvely with actually never being seen in medical situations as ill enough. The eating disorder had made me an empty shell of myself, I became consumed by constant intrustive, obsessive thoughts around food, calories, exercise, climbing and my body yet i was not able to receive any NHS or GP support as all the services were closed to referrals, and even to be referred I needed to be a lower BMI (<17.5).
 
Eating disorders are complicated, and affect each individual differently, and it would be wrong of me to say that my experience is the same for others. I always felt like I was never ill enough- by medical standards, and by the compliments i got for looking 'light and strong' at the climbing wall. Yet for 2 years I feared food, I feared being out of control of meals and meal times,  I couldnt proplerly enjoy times with friends and family, and climbing became a way for me to justify that 'I must be fine, I can still climb'.

I think, what I'm trying to get across, is that among all this conversation around eating disorders, is that people need to remember that so many people can be struggling without anyone ever knowing. It cannot be noticed by someones body, and regardless of physical impacts, I would never, ever, say that my eating disorder was a 'successful way of keeping me together'. Its an experience I would never wish on anyone, and I would hope that this conversation would focus on people being able to be open about their struggles and not focus on weights, and 'diets' for projects.

[lagerstarfish]

For example, would anyone say the climbing community is riddled with ‘self harm’? Doesn’t sound so great huh. Raising awareness in this way is virtue signalling as per a recent UKC thread.

People should be afforded their eating disorders just as they should be afforded suicidal thoughts. Nietzsche’s quote about this was something like ‘thoughts of suicide have got me through many a long night’

The last time I was body shamed by any part of the climbing community was when I was nicknamed "coco the clown" by some weak lad at Guiseley wall in the '80s because of my flabby belly. Since then every reference to my excess weight has been felt to me to be a compliment of my skill and strength.

I have regularly thought about the self harm and risk to life aspect of climbing and how weird it all is - at one end of the scale is those of us posting pictures of shredded knuckles and bleeding tips (this is not normal behaviour according to non climbing people I have spoken to) - at the other end of the scale is those of us enthusing about epic disasters and close shaves with death (again, not normal behaviour according to my wife's friends).

I remember deciding not to post about some of my experiences on the "closest I've come to carking it" thread because I was concerned that I would be promoting excessive risk taking, but these experiences were all connected with having fun, achieving things I felt great about and connecting with similarly minded people. These near misses with death or injury are some of my best memories - and certainly my best pub anecdotes 

I find it difficult to discern the boundary between my "good" risk taking and other people's dangerous, climbing focussed  eating habits.

I reached a very definite point with steep and remote snowboarding on my own where I realised that the risks I was taking were no longer life enhancing. This was mostly to do with having other life goals - relationships and other people becoming important was the bulk of it, but also an appreciation of long term enjoyment of the world. Again, I can't see much difference between those risks and food control risks in exchange for grades.

One of the obvious distinctions for me is for people who are not fully developed adults, either physically or mentally, being able to make the right judgement about what is the right level of risk.  If I'm honest, I feel that that may only confirmed by results - young people might take massive risks and get away with it and be seen as heroes - and as long as they don't turn out to be messed up adults, everyone* will see the risks as worth it.

*edit - no, not everyone - just us risk and glory idiots

[shark]

Grasshopper, you have fully absorbed the “it’s all life” approach to risk. My work is done.

[lagerstarfish]

Grasshopper, you have fully absorbed the “it’s all life” approach to risk. My work is done.

it is all life - apart from the death bit where the life ends

(bah, I got sucked in by the old person)

at no point did I mention earning money

[lagerstarfish]

I got some interesting criticism last year from non-climbers following my posting some videos of my lad bouldering outside without a rope or helmet.

This helped me to reflect on risks I take for my own enjoyment (the kids are my dependants) and also what risks I consider to be totally worth letting the kids take.

No amazing conclusions other than that it's always worth trying to see things from a non-climbers perspective.

[Oldmanmatt]

I got some interesting criticism last year from non-climbers following my posting some videos of my lad bouldering outside without a rope or helmet.

This helped me to reflect on risks I take for my own enjoyment (the kids are my dependants) and also what risks I consider to be totally worth letting the kids take.

No amazing conclusions other than that it's always worth trying to see things from a non-climbers perspective.

OT, but...

Bah humbug to the criticism!

The number of trees I fell out of, bikes I smashed, bones I broke, skin I shredded, other kids I got beaten up by, horses that kicked me into next week (or crushed my feet as I shovelled their shit) or got thrown from or the many many bits of rusty metal that impaled various body parts; all before I was 12. Then for my 13th birthday (ish) having my back broken, getting thrown off the Judo mats onto the hard wooden gym floor/assembly chairs stacked around the edge.

None of the above required any parental supervision or approval (in fact, several resulted in not being able to sit down for an hour or two).

Plus, that list only includes those that required the hours drive to the ED, plenty of daft ideas came off without a hitch (did you know, if you take one of those 8’x4’ polythene survival bags and stuff it with empty fertiliser sacks; it makes a pretty good “air bag” and when playing “Stuntman” with your mates, you can jump off a bungalow roof and land on it “safely)?

What I mean is, that’s just being a kid and stifling that sort of thing is not doing them any favours. For reference, I didn’t lose any mates until we hit 17 and then two in quick succession to motorbikes and another the following year to a single vehicle car accident, but both cars and motorbike were considered perfectly acceptable risks.

[reeve]

Amy: I don't have time for a full reply right now but I still wanted to say well done for sharing your experiences - very powerful to read and I'm sure that doing so can help anyone else who is going through similar experiences to know that they are not alone, so thank you.

[abarro81]

Apologies for the more academic/dispassionate nature of the following... almost worth a thread split to separate the more abstract questions from.the direct discussion of EDs in climbing, but I'm not sure how you'd manage it...

I find it really interesting with these questions about what potentially risky and self-destructive behaviours/obsessions are considered "bad" and in need for treatment vs "ok" and part of personal choice (e.g. BASE, soloing) or even applauded by some parts of society(e.g. breaking your body in the name of gold, working yourself into the ground in the name of "success" and at the expense of fun, family and longevity). The questions link a lot to the documentary that Simon posted earlier in the thread about athletes too (which was shot like a 90s BBC doc you'd watch in school but was interesting). (Pity Dan, presuming it was Dan, didn't want to come on and post). I have zero answers around this, only questions...

 Is a key difference is around whether you could stop if you wanted to? But I guess in the midst of any obsession (addiction?) no-one ever says they want to stop, and people usually think they're making conscious informed choices? Or do many/most with EDs know that they're out of control (even if they're doing it to be in control) but can't really stop even if at some level they want to...? It sounds like that was the case for your daughter Ian? or is there a full spectrum around that? I guess an underlying knowledge that you want to stop would/could make it quite different from the more conscious "informed consent" of setting off up K2 in winter or on a chop route, or working yourself to a broken life, even if there are some philosophical similarities or difficulty separating these things as an external observer, or even internally trying to understand your own thoughts and motivations??

[Offwidth]

Good insight Matt. I had a similarly mental approach to risk as a kid and never even broke anything nor recall any life threatening accidents. My dad aided and abetted in that from being around farm equipment, building mad rope climbing structures in our back garden and encouraging us riding trick cycles of various kinds. I had graded nearly every tree round my village for quality of climb and risk (dutch elm meant that risk was often increasing fast).  In contrast the moped motorbike and car phase of my age group in mid to late teens seemed normal but led to way too many tragedies. Most kids played outside without supervision back then so maybe society has changed, as many families I know are paranoid about what their kids do.

Back on subject I've been fat shamed regularly (I kept my thyroid issues mainly private until fairly recently) and ability shamed and 'drive to achieve' shamed. I've always regarded all of those shamings in toto as sign of unhealthy behavioural traits in climbing. My friends have been great and I love climbing and love being around similar minded people whether they win national competitions to those with serious problems with obesity working to onsight their first Mod route.  I'm really pleased these subject of eating disorders and body image are at last getting the publicity they deserve.

[Baron]

Tyler Hamilton talking about achieving race weight, not having an ED and it just being part of his job. Lots going on behind the eyes:

[Oldmanmatt]

Grasshopper, you have fully absorbed the “it’s all life” approach to risk. My work is done.

it is all life - apart from the death bit where the life ends

(bah, I got sucked in by the old person)

at no point did I mention earning money

To be fair, even the death bit, is part of the life bit.

[mrjonathanr]

Amy, Thank you for posting that. It takes courage to talk, hopefully that can give others the confidence to talk too

Interesting what you say about not being ‘ill enough’ to access support, it is clear that current provision is not sufficient. Perhaps if this is more openly debated the need will be more widely recognised. I was pretty shocked by Caroline’s statistic of 30m Americans being affected, I assume she has done her research thoroughly.

Is a key difference is around whether you could stop if you wanted to? But I guess in the midst of any obsession (addiction?) no-one ever says they want to stop, and people usually think they're making conscious informed choices?

That is the essence of Fiend’s post isn’t it? Not everyone is looking to change.  There is a lot of pro-ana stuff out there I believe.. .just telling people they are wrong may not be effective way of engaging them. And like Webbo says, consequences of inaction can be dire, for bulimia as well as anorexia (not that they are wholly different conditions).

[spidermonkey09]

whoever Fiend is posting for can p*ss off!

Not an uncommon feeling for me either!  I have read that post several times and still don't understand it properly.

[SA Chris]

I don't dish out personal abuse about likely-sensitive physical issues, and I'm quite prepared to be called up on it if I do.

Anyone tall than you are fair game though right?

[Yossarian]

I've thought for some time about posting on this thread after getting so pissed off over on the UKC discussion.

However I'd like to share my experience as I think some here have got (understandably) blinkered vision.

I'm 173cm. 79-80KG depending on the day. Last year climbed 8b+ and 8A, and I'm alright in the scope of 'strong on an edge'.

Honestly, I've been given so much shit from within the climbing community about my body composition and weight.
This is something that started as criticism and 'helpful advice' when I initially got into climbing in 2013, and progressed to incredulity & backhanded praise as I made steady grade progress each year.

I constantly get comments from other climbers expressing their surprise that I can climb what I climb with the body composition I have.

"You don't look that strong", "Imagine how good you'd be if you lost 10kg!"

This has been a constant theme of my climbing experience. Honestly? It really fucks me off 

I tried dropping weight a few times entirely due to many peers strongly suggesting it would make me stronger. It didn't, it just made me weak and feel depressed for the first time in my life. The funniest thing is that a broken scale was what made it all clear to me - I'd been dutifully following a calorie restriction whilst training and was feeling pretty miserable but was pleased to see the number on the scale changing slowly, and I'd climbed my first 8a. One day (when the scale was reading 72kg), I accidentally dropped it and smashed the glass. I went out and bought a new scale, set it all up and then weighed myself to make sure it was all working. The dial read 79kg - my old scale was evidently already broken. I was absolutely devastated because I'd put myself through all this restriction, low energy and generally feeling rubbish for nothing - my weight hadn't changed one bit.

However, after a little while I started to think - I'd just climbed my hardest route despite all that low energy and feeling rubbish and weak. What could I do when I didn't feel like that?

I started eating more, spoke with a nutritionist about how to make sure I was getting the right energy intake and protein etc, and climbed 4 more 8a's in a 6 week period after needing nearly the same amount of time to do my first.

Since then I'm eating well, trying as hard as I can to be a good climber, and telling people who make those comments about weight exactly what I think about it. I'm hoping to climb 8c this year - and if I do, it'll be at 79kg.

I'm delighted to read this for a number of reasons, but mainly because of your firm commitment to sport climbing beef at the end.

I've avoided this thread so far, partly because my own attitude to weight and weight loss is not especially sensible and I always seem to be trying to lose it or in a low psyche can't be fucked eat and drink far too much and put it all back on. What I will say is that, without various long term climbing related goals (sadly mostly related to grades and going on trips to sunny places) I would almost certainly be sitting on a train with a beer and a pack of pork pies weighting in at around 120kg.