[petejh]

I understand the points, but they still appear to ignore what people are having to do by going back to work.

I've had to put a three man team back to work. They started last Monday. Over the next days and weeks they'll interact with each other and with various age-50-60 site engineers. They'll visit shops. They'll fill up with fuel more than if they weren't at work. The risk to them of catching or transmitting covid19 can't be eliminated.

So what is it about schools that's different to people in taxis, trains, buses, warehouses, power stations, refineries, chemical plants, construction sites, shops, petrol stations, supermarkets, plumbers, cleaners, labourers, scaffolders, electricians, nurses, doctors, etc, etc, and hundreds of other trades that can't avoid human contact?
Genuine question - is there any evidence of increased risk to teachers or parents versus everyone already having to go to work?

If there is, fair enough. If there isn't, why treat them differently?

[Bradders]

You're assuming people agree that going back to work at this stage is the right thing to do, for one thing. I think a lot of people don't.

Secondly, I think the social distancing issue is the main one. It's arguably possible in a very large number of work environments, and the government's instruction to go back to work was heavily predicated on maintaining social distance, whereas children just won't do it.

[petejh]

But I'm not. I'm not assuming it's the right thing or the wrong thing to do. And for the sake of brevity I'll point out that I'm also NOT assuming that two wrongs make a right. (but if it's wrong to go back to work then why are so many of us doing it)


I'm just pointing out that it's the fact that people ARE going back to work because - unless we're all to be paid to live in some Utopian existence where we have money without having to go to work - we have to go to work to (hopefully!) survive. If this is the fact of the matter and it is, what is the evidence that says teachers should not go back to work, when so many other people apparently should have to?

I understand the point about social distancing and kids. What is the evidence teachers are at higher risk than other workers?

[mrjonathanr]

Not convinced two wrongs to make a right is the smartest way to tackle this tbh. Solidarity and judging facts on their merit might be a better starting point.

Current guidance is that you can only safely meet 1 person, capable of following social distancing rules, from outside your household in the open air.

Logically, this should now be changed to safely meeting up to fifteen people, who are incapable of following the rules, indoors for hours at a time.

To be fair it's early Sunday evening, Boris has still got time...

[petejh]

But I'm not. I'm not assuming it's the right thing or the wrong thing to do. And for the sake of brevity I'll point out that I'm also NOT assuming that two wrongs make a right. (but if it's wrong to go back to work then why are so many of us doing it)

Current guidance is that you can only safely meet 1 person, capable of following social distancing rules, from outside your household in the open air.

Logically, this should now be changed to safely meeting up to fifteen people, who are incapable of following the rules, indoors for hours at a time.

My people at work can't only meet one person in the open air. Nor will loads of others.

So logically what you're saying is teachers should accept a similar situation as that of a supermarket worker?

[tomtom]

But by the logic of your argument Pete - no one should bother social distancing....

Because If you or your co-workers can’t - why not teachers? Why not everyone else?

[mrjonathanr]

Solidarity and judging facts on their merit might be a better starting point

Did you miss this bit Pete?

Unless you really dig divide and rule Pete, which I am sure you don't, best to analyse the situation from the standpoint 'what is going to get us out of this mess' and then apply that without seeing anyone as expendable.

Alternatively, we could also apply the recent care home model:

You can meet lots of people indoors for extended periods of time, move freely between them and be in close physical, including introducing new members known to be infected into the group at regular intervals. PPE may, or may not, be worn. You may also go into multiple settings, same rules apply.

edit posts crossing

[teestub]

My people at work can't only meet one person in the open air. Nor will loads of others.

Our current company policy is that any ops that can’t maintain social distancing due to the nature of the work being carried out will wear appropriate PPE. Do you not have something similar in place Pete?

You can’t do this with children. 

[Wil]

At work you should be able to enforce social distancing. If you can't then appropriate PPE should be used and the times where you have to be in close proximity limited. If employees fail to follow the protocol they could be sacked, if the protocol cannot be followed then they could legitimately refuse to work on H&S grounds. Or the company could continue to furlough them.

I'm the same scenario in school it's not clear that pupils could be denied access to their education. In a secondary scenario schools could suspend pupils who consistently fail to follow instructions on good practice. In reality many of those pupils will also be a safeguarding concern, they may need to find alternative arrangements on site (and no doubt be subject to tabloid nonsense about solitary confinement). In primary it won't be possible to enforce that in the same way.

The key difference is that if it is unsafe you don't have to work, in a legal sense. The schools will have to take the pupils, and will be told they must ensure their safety, but that they're not allowed to do that by shutting. They will not be given any extra resources to open safely. They have been told specifically that they cannot wear masks, except with an isolated child displaying symptoms. They have also been told that the classes of 15 should stay together and only have one teacher. That's despite secondary schools only taking exam groups, who will not all do the same subjects and will need specialist teachers.

[webbo]

Could the schools just introduce a new uniform for the kids such as Star Wars Stormtrooper outfit.
There may be a problem when someone needs a wee though.

[tommytwotone]

One thing that seems to have been missed - there seems to be a quiet drumbeat of stories of kids picking up a virus related to COVID-19 that looks really nasty.

Sound like still in the "too early to tell" phase but as TT says I am also in the "do I trust this government to make sensible decisions on this?" category.

Also, on a practical note. Not sure about others but if I did want to sent my eldest (Year One) in, a) it's a 5 week term b) it's gonna be hella disruptive and c) school have already said they'll be "teaching" a cut-down curriculum.

So apart from glorified childcare (that thankfully I don't need, as I'm "between jobs" right now) why would I send her in?

School have surveyed , and AFAIK vast majority have said they wouldn't bother even if they did open.

[tommytwotone]

I mean as apposed to waiting till term ends, she won't be going back till September, by which time you'd hope things would be better in terms of infection rates / vaccine / testing etc etc.

And yes, I am aware of the amount to inherent privilege baked into my situation. In a way we are lucky to be a position where we can keep her away with minimal disruption to us.

[battery]

Random list of thoughts in no particular order. Apologies if they are brief and to the point, my resilience is low this evening.

The idea that 4 and 5 year old children are going to socially distance is ridiculous.

Children are very adaptable and the 'new normal' of possibly not being with their friends, their teacher or in their classroom they will I am sure get used to but at what cost? Is it really worth the upset and disruption? Some children will breeze through it, some will not.

How as a school and a parent do you answer the questions about why little Johnny isn't in school but Sammy is?

The evidence of children having and spreading the virus is in its infancy, the risk to families and teachers is.... Well no one knows!

The argument of needing to open for vulnerable children is bullshit as there is no compulsion for anyone to attend from June 1 and vulnerable can attend now, why would they suddenly return in 2 weeks if they aren't already there?

It's hard to think about those whom we would normally consider to be the most vulnerable in our families as not needing protection.

[petejh]

JR, Teestub, Wil and others.
 
Wil - We do what we can. We keep team sizes to a minimum and don't intend to change out personnel so it's as a contained bubble as possible. We've told guys they mustn't share works vans. If they absolutely must share a van then we provide masks. But no our workers cannot socially distance for the entire day, it isn't possible. And as self-employed workers nor are they going to be able to justify not working without risking being skint. If you think this is wrong then I wouldn't strongly disagree.

Social distancing at work: the government guidance for construction workers makes it obvious that while social distancing is preferable, where it isn't possible work can go ahead without it:
''Where the social distancing guidelines cannot be followed in full, in relation to a particular activity, businesses should consider whether that activity needs to continue for the business to operate, and if so, take all the mitigating actions possible to reduce the risk of transmission between their staff.'' (the mitigating actions listed do not eliminate close contact nor are many of them practicable for construction-type work)
And
''Finally, if people must work face-to-face for a sustained period with more than a small group of fixed partners, then you will need to assess whether the activity can safely go ahead. No one is obliged to work in an unsafe work environment.''

The implication being that working without social-distancing is acceptable as long as it's a small unchanging group - of a size undefined by the guidance.

And the words are fine. But no employer in my industry is obliged to employ a sub-contractor who doesn't want to work because of covid19. And much of the work in this industry will ignore social distancing to get the work done within client's time and budget expectations.


This point by JR sums up my view:

Unless you really dig divide and rule Pete, which I am sure you don't, best to analyse the situation from the standpoint 'what is going to get us out of this mess' and then apply that without seeing anyone as expendable.

Quite. And if you really believe this statement applies to everyone then you should argue to pull everyone out of work who can't socially distance if you believe social distancing to be vital to welfare. Not just teachers and not just workers with powerful unions.
Or, if you believe it is acceptable for people to be in work without being able to adopt strict social distancing - which is what is really going on in many workplaces including supermarkets, public transport and construction (and is implicitly accepted in the various government workplace guidance documents) - then you should apply that principle to all workers including yourself.

The cautious principle being expressed on this thread is not the principle that's actually in practice in workplaces outside of your bubbles.

[mrjonathanr]

Quite. And if you really believe this statement applies to everyone then you should argue to pull everyone out of work who can't socially distance if you believe social distancing to be vital to welfare. Not just teachers and not just workers with powerful unions.
Or, if you believe it is acceptable for people to be in work without being able to adopt strict social distancing - which is what is really going on in many workplaces including supermarkets, public transport and construction (and is implicitly accepted in the various government workplace guidance documents) - then you should apply that principle to all workers including yourself.

FWIW, I agree. If one thing has been exposed over recent weeks it is that we are not all in it together. There is a split economy between those whose work can take place behind a screen at home and those who have to brave the virus in the workplace. In other words, a class divide, a really stark one.

That deserves its own thread really -fair enough to point this out, but it does not address how to get schools open again. That workplace is a very special one because of the children and people will, rightly, have especially strong feelings about risk in that context. personally, I am all in favour of a return to school (selfish reasons included, I spent 13 hours on a computer today and it's not over yet) but the gov needs to do better with regard to safety, providing evidence and mitigation. Airily saying it's okay won't satisfy many parties.

[tomtom]

Copy and pasted from a tweet - but worth sharing::

Best quote from today’s briefing.... “I can’t imagine a child would ever want to eat something from another child’s lunchbox “
Just going to leave that there.🤦🏻‍♀️

[tomtom]

This might surprise a few people... or not.

https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham/status/1262264071132340224?s=21

[Wil]

This might surprise a few people... or not.

https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham/status/1262264071132340224?s=21

I'm having a very interesting experience at the moment. I'm working in a care home (I had been doing a few days of supply teaching, but obviously that's dried up). It's not work I've ever done before and more than that it's mostly working with a demographic that I simply don't come into any sustained contact with - white, working class women.

I recognise the characters from classes I teach at school. I feel like I've met them in their teens, as a teacher, but I've not really encountered them in the wild in adulthood. It's shown me just how closeted my middle class, university educated life is and it's been a cultural shock. They take astrology seriously for a start (one woman paid £12 for a single horoscope during a shift last week and complained it wasn't accurate, the pay is less than £10ph). The discussions about schools and  risk are very black and white. Overwhelmingly they wouldn't send their kids back yet, although many are using relatively young grandparents to babysit while they work and in many cases both they and their partners have been working the whole time. They don't trust Boris, but at least he's got charisma, the idea of Jeremy Corbyn being in charge during this fills them with horror. Most of them smoke, many of them had children as teenagers, they consider drinking 2 bottles of wine solo in an evening to not be worth raising an eyebrow. They play the lottery religiously. They are surprised that my wife lets me work with a bunch of women.

It makes them sound feckless, but they work hard and they care a lot about what they do and the wellbeing of the residents. The world outside of their family bubble isn't something of concern or interest until it affects them, and for most there's no instinct to think critically about it, they'd rather think in scandal and soundbites. As a teacher I would say they've spent their lives feeling that they're a bit thick and therefore it's not for them to try to understand or influence the wider world.

[SA Chris]

Also of note is because contact tracing, which is probably going to be implemented at some point (in Scotland at least) will be very difficult, unless every school going child is given a mobile phone, which they need to carry with them at all times, but not play with in lessons.

[tomtom]

Also of note is because contact tracing, which is probably going to be implemented at some point (in Scotland at least) will be very difficult, unless every school going child is given a mobile phone, which they need to carry with them at all times, but not play with in lessons.

The contact tracing app seems to be further delayed according to recent reports... another project going well...

[SA Chris]

In England? Might be different here;

https://www.gov.scot/news/contact-tracing-technology-piloted/

[ali k]

I'm having a very interesting experience at the moment. I'm working in a care home (I had been doing a few days of supply teaching, but obviously that's dried up).

I’ve just read that supply teachers can be furloughed. Not sure if it applies to you but thought it worth mentioning just in case?

[Wil]

I’ve just read that supply teachers can be furloughed.

I've actually just had a furlough payment! 🙂 I think it took so long because the rules weren't clear to my agency, but should get a bit of extra cash for a few weeks at least.

[tomtom]

One schools plan for how it will work: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/may/19/distanced-drop-offs-and-protective-bubbles-englands-new-school-rules

Sounds like a pretty barren experience (esp for reception/yr1). No toys, no games. Each child having their own pencils and stuff (no sharing). Lunch at the desk....

Reading this - I can see how the measures help and maybe will work. But it also makes me wonder whether our boy would benefit from this for 5 weeks or so - or whether it may have a negative effect, giving him a bad - maybe scarey - non social perception of school. Though that may be the way it happens come September.

We're still not decided - and I'm not sure the article helps.

[tc]

Apparently Eton isn't opening until September. That doesn't even seem strange any more.

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2020/05/16/if-eton-isnt-reopening-until-at-least-september-why-the-hurry-to-bring-back-state-schools/