[tomtom]

Hi Battery - our near 4yo had a week like that last week (back to boob grabbing wherever possible too..) and he’s more or less back to normal now. Ours is obvs at a different stage of learning to yours but he has love numbers one week - hates them the next and repeat... same with letters/phonetics.

For us the plus would be the social aspect (for him). Poor mite only having me and his mum to play with all that tome.

[rginns]

Our eldest turns three next week (I used to think that a 2 year old child was the most fun thing to be around, but watching her personality develop makes me think that a 3 year old might be even more fun!) and nursery have asked us "what are our concerns?". Which is kind of a pointless question - what do you think our concerns are?!

Social distancing children of this age is not going to work. And I don't think it would be very helpful for the staff to be wearing PPE! She was going to nursery for two days a week while Daisy is on maternity leave, and she seems to have coped quite well with not mixing with children her own age. I've not noticed anything like what JB describes, but there may be social issues that are developing which only become apparent when she meets children of her own age again. That's been my biggest concern for her from the outset.

Basically, I'm not sure what to do. So far I feel as though I've reduced my chance of contracting it to almost nil, with the biggest risk being the three trips to the supermarket I've made. If she goes back to nursery she will catch anything that the other children bring in and she will then transfer it to us. It's an act of faith - maybe send her in on one day a week and hope that she doesn't bring it home. Are the benefits to her worth the additional risk? Given the scenes that my wife has observed while taking the kids for walks over the past few days (families picnicking together at close quarters in parks,   mums meeting up with other mums to take the kids for a walk together etc etc) there's no way that we can make the assumption that other parents are being just as careful as us.

Edit: just talking to Daisy about this. Her preference would be that we organise a playdate once a week with the other two families in our NCT group - which might become partially possible if the social bubble thing comes in.

Will, in my experience it gets more and more fun the older they get, alongside the increasing frustrations!


Interesting point about PPE, in the original guidance notes my wife saw (she's a teacher) if a pupil started to show symptoms theyd have to isolate the kid alone in a room, with an open window, don appropriate PPE before any further interaction to await collection

I find it hard to think of a more dystopian way to traumatise a 5 year old than someone bursting in all masked up...

I think this guidance had changed now.

Apparently the DFE weren't even consulted before the decision was taken which gives me no confidence in our current government

EDIT: the scientific advisor for the DFE wasn't consulted

[mrjonathanr]

Ironic that an administration wedded to testing kids to the point of introducing baseline tests in reception this autumn does not, so far, seem to have the same approach to testing pupils for Covid.

[chris j]

My personal take on it is that schools reopening means that children are highly likely to catch Covid, no matter what control measures are put in place, largely because classrooms are confined spaces where social distancing will mean nothing after hours sat breathing the same air. Forest schools excepted, of course.

The question is, are you bothered? Or do you reason that infection carries minimal risk to preteens so why worry? And how concerned are you that down the chain of transmission from the classroom is an ICU full of oldies on ventilators?

My view is we will have to learn as a society to live with the virus, it will most likely be around for a long time. The vulnerable need to be shielded but the rest of society where risk is low need to start to find how close to a normal life we can return to. I also think there is a clamour and expectation to 100% shield everyone from the virus which is not practical and there are sections of society where greater damage is being caused by restrictions. For teachers i think there will need to be routine testing and then most likely 2-3 week localised shutdowns of schools if/when there are flare-ups. I don't think the situation will be any different in September so why wait.

[tomtom]

@Chris - the very real reason to wait (maybe until September - maybe later) is that levels of new cases are still nationally high.. so this track/trace/isolate lockdown schools/classes etc.. is feasible if the overall number of cases is low (as per many Scandinavian countries) but for us - at the moment not. especially as we presently have zero - none - nada track and trace in operation. To TBH it seems really premature...

We may well have to learn to live with the virus - at least until we get a vaccine (if) - and probably a bit after that too. BUT - before we learn to live with it we need to know how it transmits - whether children are carriers in a less or greater way than adults - FFS - we even need to know how many cases there are or have been. All of which we don’t know!

So making decisions like The school one are really using ‘professional best judgement’ AKA guessing. Or (as some have suggested) being made for economic rather than health reasons.

That’s a very different argument - that’s not the one being presented by the government.

Finally - lets face it - to date this Government have so far made some pretty fucking terrible decisions. Including (a) not locking down soon enough (b) stopping contact tracing/scaling back tracing (c) the care home situation.

So personally - I have no faith in this being a well thought out or evidence based decision.

[chris j]

I understand your argument, but, data seems to be emerging (see remus' link in the other thread, and i think also the icelandic testing) that suggests unless you are in certain at risk groups, the hazard really is pretty low. To take the luxury of waiting until you have all the data and certainty means there will be much deeper and longer lasting deprivation and economic, mental and other damage to many sections of society, who are not necessarily at great risk from the virus. Unfortunately, no matter what we do, the at risk groups are going to have to shelter for the foreseeable future, but it is not unreasonable for the rest of society to take baby steps towards finding the new normal.

I think the bubble system they have come up with for now is a reasonable starting point. It will obviously be closely monitored and no doubt evolve over time. Better to start with a few groups and limited numbers (given it seems less than half of parents in chosen year groups will send their children back in June) than wait till September and try to integrate everyone to start a new school year with an untested system.

[tomtom]

Sorry Chris - but I think you’re on another planet from me on this.

The ‘hazard is low unless you are in certain risk groups’ argument is the same used to justify delaying the lockdown in mid March. Look where that got us. 50k and counting. Sorry - but the argument you present comes across very much as ‘I’m alright jack’. 

[chris j]

We have a better picture of who is at risk and how they can be protected so i don't really believe it's the same situation as March. I also don't particularly appreciate you telling me I have an I'm alright jack attitude as i have various friends and relatives in different at risk categories.

Off topic I'm flying to Norway for work on Monday, to join a boat and live in close confines with 100-odd other folk i don't know from various countries. Testing is effectively a remote thermometer at the gangway and a questionnaire beforehand asking if i've got a cough. With the lack of connections i have three flights and two hotel stays to get there where before it would have been a direct single flight. I'll then have to quarantine again when i come home. I'm not overly enamoured but it's work and you do what you have to do to pay the bills. Do I think sending my daughter to school to be taught in an unchanging group of 12 with a single teacher is an unreasonable risk, no. YMMV.

[Oldmanmatt]

We have a better picture of who is at risk and how they can be protected so i don't really believe it's the same situation as March. I also don't particularly appreciate you telling me I have an I'm alright jack attitude as i have various friends and relatives in different at risk categories.

Off topic I'm flying to Norway for work on Monday, to join a boat and live in close confines with 100-odd other folk i don't know from various countries. Testing is effectively a remote thermometer at the gangway and a questionnaire beforehand asking if i've got a cough. With the lack of connections i have three flights and two hotel stays to get there where before it would have been a direct single flight. I'll then have to quarantine again when i come home. I'm not overly enamoured but it's work and you do what you have to do to pay the bills. Do I think sending my daughter to school to be taught in an unchanging group of 12 with a single teacher is an unreasonable risk, no. YMMV.

Really?

I can’t join the ship I was due to join in April (actually our whole contract is on hold, so 12 of us are twiddling thumbs). I have a good mate who has been stuck on a Dive support, off Saudi, since the beginning  of March, though he was supposed to finally get off over the weekend.
Another mate is a Super based in Dubai, lives in Austria. He was meant to rotate home in the second week of March, but can’t fly to Austria, only Germany and he says the Aus/Ger border ist Verboten, plus he’d be in isolation for two weeks after getting back and then might not be allowed into Dubai on return.

I’m guessing you’re Offshore?

[chris j]

Yes, I know of folk who have been kept onboard their vessel working since February, with their reliefs sat at home, who are currently on the promise of a crew change in June. If you have family at home as most will then if must have been challenging mentally to say the least. And for the guys sat at home waiting to go offshore, staff on furlough (presumably based on basic salary, no day rate aspect), contractors on nothing (assuming they are UKB's favourite ltd company NI dodgers), it will have been challenging in a different way.

In my previous contract we had all sorts of fun trying to get as many people as we could home in the mad week in March when all the borders were closing and everytime you looked at options another airline had cancelled their flights.

There are some delayed projects starting up now around the North Sea as travel is becoming possible (if convoluted), not sure what the situation is elsewhere. A lot of projects were put on indefinite hold or cancelled when the oil price plummeted. Travel should get easier as i think the likes of Lufthansa are looking to start up again, but i'm sure as an experience it will be less pleasant. Spending half your time off stuck in the house in quarantine is also not appealing, TBH widespread testing and anti-body testing can't come soon enough for me!

[Oldmanmatt]

I did something, possibly, daft.
On the off chance our “delayed” contract, becomes a “canceled” contract, I applied to the RFA last week...
I cast around  for some relief work on the Mega yachts, but they’re only taking people already in country, which rules me out here in the UK.

[chris j]

Things are difficult, I was fully expecting not to pick up any work before next spring so this short project is very welcome. Hopefully I'm wrong and it doesn't get that bad.

[mrjonathanr]

TBH widespread testing and anti-body testing can't come soon enough for me!

This ^ is the way out of the maze. And the way to make schools safe. There’s about 2 m kids in those 3 year groups, if gov 100k+ testing figures are to be believed they could have them all tested before a phased return to classrooms which they would know are safe from day one.

The plan to test symptomatic kids who have been quietly shedding virus for two weeks is pointless. They can just isolate, as at present.

[tomtom]

We have a better picture of who is at risk and how they can be protected so i don't really believe it's the same situation as March. I also don't particularly appreciate you telling me I have an I'm alright jack attitude as i have various friends and relatives in different at risk categories.

Sorry - but the argument you present comes across very much as ‘I’m alright jack’. 

As above - I’m not telling you anything. Sorry you were insulted - its not meant as a smite at you.

On the OP, Its putting some people in some tough situations. Talking to our neighbour (before a rather long winded bedtime routine finally finished just now here) - she has year 5 and 6 daughters. Single mum living with her father - who has cancer - can barely walk and is really very vulnerable to this. Her year 6 really wants to go in - but she is utterly torn about what to do.

[chris j]

Thanks, it's easy for me to go off on one too... Our 5 year old is regressing to be worse than our 3 year old for tantrums this last couple of weeks, which is trying (several of her friends we hear are similar). Kind of desperate to get more social contact for her and Zoom is a help but not enough.

There's going to be a lot of hard choices, i feel for your neighbour and anyone in a similar position.

[TobyD]

I agree with Chris for what it's worth. Proviso that I don't have kids at school!
There seems to be a lot of discussion of when it'll be safe to go back, but it's almost never going to be safe even if there is a vaccine. Yes there are levels of risk and I agree with others that the government have royally screwed up implementing this, and should be looking at different regions. But I can't see things being massively different in 6 months, so they've got to go back sometime?

[teestub]

But I can't see things being massively different in 6 months,

Really? I’m hoping R will be lower in 6 months, that there will have been good uptake of a tracing app and widespread testing, so that informed decisions on the risk of sending teachers and students to school in different areas can be made from decent information.

[ali k]

I can't see things being massively different in 6 months

More time for research? Better consensus among the scientific community on transmission risk of kids? Fewer cases (we still have far higher numbers than other countries when they reopened schools)? R not being dangerously close to 1? Time for the govt to actually implement an effective test-track-isolate strategy? Not to mention building a consensus among schools and parents that they’re happy to open again rather than just announcing it with such little consultation?

I think the govt have made a huge mistake (again) in trying to restart the economy and get schools back too early when we’re barely past the first peak and our numbers aren’t reducing nearly as quickly as in other countries. In fact, in some regions they’re still increasing!

I spoke to my brothers in NZ last night and the schools there are only just opening today. That’s despite having only one new case in the last 24hrs. We had almost 3,500 people test positive yday and getting on for 500 deaths. They’re still adopting fairly strict mitigation measures in schools over there too by the sound of it even with such low prevalence of Covid.

[mrjonathanr]

Gove today to Marr:

“The only way ever to ensure that you never catch coronavirus is to stay at home completely. There’s always, always, always in any loosening of these restrictions a risk of people catching the coronavirus.
“The key thing is that we can make these workplaces safe. You can never eliminate risk, but as we know, it is the case that it is exrtremely unlikely that any school is likely to be the source of a Covid outbreak and if, for any reason, there are risks we can take steps to mitigate them.”

The question is, how do 'take steps to mitigate' risk?

Do we plough on impatiently, Trump style, because we are anxious about the impact of the lockdown and just hope we don't begin a second wave which will really hurt the economy and everything else? After all, countries who have got their pandemic really under control seem to be doing it ok so let's have a go too?

Or do we look at the tools at our disposal, get infections and comprehensive testing in order, and do it right?

Is that a tough call? 

(I'll ignore the knowing ''that it is exrtremely unlikely that any school is likely to be the source of a Covid outbreak'' because he has not shown evidence - love to see it!)

[Bradders]

My partner is a teacher and has nothing but four letter words for Gove, particularly after his "if you really care about the children you'll go back to school" bullshit this morning.

[ali k]

My partner is a teacher and has nothing but four letter words for Gove, particularly after his "if you really care about the children you'll go back to school" bullshit this morning.

It’s almost as if Gove/Cummings chose to come back and goad the teachers this morning. Either that or it was a pretty poor choice of minister to put forward for Marr. All the teachers I know hold nothing but contempt for him.

[Bradders]

I wondered whether they decided that teachers can't despise him much more than they did anyway...

[petejh]

I'm uninformed here, is there evidence for schools being higher risk - of increasing transmission, of catching coronavirus - than other forms of work currently ongoing?

If there is, then it seems fair enough to question re-opening.
If there isn't, then it seems unfair on the large section of society who are back in work not to re-open.

[Bradders]

I'm sure someone informed will be along soon, but common sense tells me that trying to get children, especially primary school age, to stay 2m apart is utterly impossible, both from each other and from their teachers.

So yeah logically assuming children can spread the virus just like other human beings then immediately there's a significant risk. I don't know whether that's the case but again logically I don't see why it wouldn't be?

Also, no one is saying schools shouldn't go back as soon as possible (far as I know). They're saying they should go back when the risk can be controlled, and the argument is that the Government have done bugger all to make that happen.

[Wil]

I'm uninformed here, is there evidence for schools being higher risk - of increasing transmission, of catching coronavirus - than other forms of work currently ongoing?

Regardless of related risk of different activities I think the whole "Is it fair?" comparison of everything is misguided. Some things won't be "fair" and some things might not be allowed despite being comparatively the same risk, the point is that some interactions need to stop or be limited so ensure the virus doesn't spread uncontrollably. We're still trapped in analysing the individual risk of activities, rather than the collective.

The evidence you want really needs to be the other way round, we need to demonstrate that school openings can be done safely for individual pupils and for virus spread. At the moment that's not clear. What is clear is that social distancing will not be effective in schools. Many pupils will not follow it and within a classroom how far apart you sit may not matter since you're together for a long time.

Obviously in all of this we've got the problem that government messaging has been "keep your distance, it's dangerous" and now needs to move on to say that actually, being in close proximity to a small number of people outside of your household is ok when there's a serious benefit of keeping the economy running or continuing education.

In my view, schools may be able to open safely for a limited number of pupils. Limited both for reasons of reducing the number of contacts and because it will be possible to have smaller classes, staggered breaks and limited movement. There will be pupils and teachers who simply can't attend. We need to see the government's data to back this up though, it's not fair to take it on faith.