[Will Hunt]

I believe this will be discussed in the local BMC area meeting on Wednesday.
If all that has been stated here is correct (and I don't see any reason to doubt it) then I would encourage anybody who has a first hand account to make a formal complaint to North Yorkshire Police. If this doesn't go anywhere then take it to the ombudsman.
The police enforcement must be consistent, transparent, and lawful. It sounds like the officers present were none of these things.
I'll be asking on Wednesday that the BMC make a representation to North Yorkshire Police on behalf of climbers and walkers. It might be that the rules are relaxed at the end of March, but I do think that there needs to be some pushback, not least because we might find ourselves in the same position again in the short/medium term future.

[Bradders]

So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.

Maybe this is the crag police we've always heard about, and they are sending people home if footwork looks shoddy or they are using dodgy beta.

Dab...

[Oldmanmatt]

So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.

Maybe this is the crag police we've always heard about, and they are sending people home if footwork looks shoddy or they are using dodgy beta.

Dab...

ACDab?


*Sorry, sorry, bad taste and expressing an anti-police sentiment I don’t in fact hold, but, shit, it’s Monday, FFS, who isn’t a bit cranky on a Monday?

[Fiend]

I was over by Dreamland when all this went down at DWR yesterday so heard a lot of the confrontation. There were probably about 15 people in the DWR-Crucifix area - presumably a number of different groups, including a couple of families.

As much as the policing sounds like a load of cockcheese, this initial situation sounds pretty foolish. With all the grey areas, police discretion, guidelines vs rules etc etc, it's pretty important to avoid drawing attention to oneself, stick to the spirit of avoiding covid transmission, and try to stick to the general, clearer rules about social distancing and groups. 15 people in that area seems like a red rag to a North Rigton bobby.

[spidermonkey09]

I was over by Dreamland when all this went down at DWR yesterday so heard a lot of the confrontation. There were probably about 15 people in the DWR-Crucifix area - presumably a number of different groups, including a couple of families.

As much as the policing sounds like a load of cockcheese, this initial situation sounds pretty foolish. With all the grey areas, police discretion, guidelines vs rules etc etc, it's pretty important to avoid drawing attention to oneself, stick to the spirit of avoiding covid transmission, and try to stick to the general, clearer rules about social distancing and groups. 15 people in that area seems like a red rag to a North Rigton bobby.

I think two things can simultaneously be true - that there were too many people under DWR and that if the copper had gone 'guys, we can't have everyone so close, please can you spread out to do your climbing' there would have been no problem.

[nai]

But people being there from Manchester was a problem.

As was them not managing it themselves.

Interested to know why a group at the keel got away with it too, when they should only be in a pair.

[spidermonkey09]

But people being there from Manchester was a problem.

Not in law, so you cant be fined for coming from Manchester. You could be fined for being in a group I agree.

[Davo]

I agree about keeping a relative low profile and avoiding situations that are likely to provoke issues. However I just don’t understand what the police are doing there in the first place. Surely there resources could be better allocated elsewhere? Unless of course (as someone else pointed out ) Leeds has no real crime at the moment?

[teestub]

Hopefully someone’s GoPro was running as the whole thing sounds very entertaining.

As much as I don’t agree with the policing, hopefully this will be a bit of a kick up the bum for whoever was in the group at DWR or any other big groups at the crag. You’re not really going to be able to maintain social distancing in that sort of setting and there are few crags where climbers are more on display to the general public.

If it was a group of 15 people sat around having a picnic and a few beers in the park most on here would be rolling their eyes I reckon, and to the outside observer the DWR scene prob didn’t look much different.

[Will Hunt]

It does indeed sound like a group of climbers had made some less-than-sensible decisions. Anybody who was in a group other than a pair or a household group will even have been in breach of the law - those people should rightly have been challenged.
That is not an excuse for the police to do a shoddy job and to exercise their own personal frustrations (if I can't go to a gym then you can't climb). All I'm asking is that they are consistent, transparent, and lawful.

I thought we were generally in favour of parliamentary sovereignty on this board?

[teestub]

I agree about keeping a relative low profile and avoiding situations that are likely to provoke issues. However I just don’t understand what the police are doing there in the first place. Surely there resources could be better allocated elsewhere? Unless of course (as someone else pointed out ) Leeds has no real crime at the moment?

Almscliff is in N Yorks and a lot closer to Harrogate than Leeds. You can also see most of the crag from neighbouring posh N Rigton so wouldn’t be surprised if there’d been a few calls to 101 from concerned residents.

[SA Chris]

Agree, but it's probably easy pickings for them - lots of cars on verge, go have a wander and see, rather than having to travel around neighbourhoods checking to see if too much noise coming from one house, or too many cars parked outside.

Also think 15 folk in 1 small area is a bit daft.

[nai]

Not in law, so you cant be fined for coming from Manchester

Ah right, is this one of the loopholes where the guidance and law say different things?

Sounds like there's a connies savvy copper who knew the Cliff would be busy on a warm, damp, blustery day.  Inside job. all the way.

[spidermonkey09]

If it was a group of 15 people sat around having a picnic and a few beers in the park most on here would be rolling their eyes I reckon, and to the outside observer the DWR scene prob didn’t look much different.

I am still firmly in the camp that whilst not ideal, groups of people outside having a beer/picnic should be tolerated if not actively encouraged yet because it is far, far better that activity take place outside than inside. Sounds like London parks were full of this this weekend with no repercussions and rightly so. I do take your point about the optics but as Will said it doesn't excuse the police approach.

[Will Hunt]

Another comparison to think about is one of children's play areas. Lots of people, adults and children alike (if you're not using the swings and slides yourself why did you even have kids?), exercising in the same vicinity on the same apparatus. Nobody has a problem with this. It's not especially dissimilar from a group of people from different households/bubbles etc using the same bit of a crag.

[duncan]

So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.

...the first cop was saying something along the lines of 'I can't go the gym, so why is it okay for you to do this?'

The police enforcement must be consistent, transparent, and lawful. It sounds like the officers present were none of these things.

Arbitrary and heavy-handed behaviour when officers are unfamiliar with the ways of those they are policing? I feel there could be parallels drawn here somehow...

[steveri]

So easy to revert to type. Previously uber-niche venue a couple of miles from home, nobody goes there. Met a bloke up there. Had a nice distanced chat. Get nowhere working on my traverse. Establish we don't mind sharing holds and try a roof together, naturally start spotting each other's backs. My arms aren't 2m long.

3 more people arrive (big family I don't know). Everyone well meaning and cautious but there's too many of us. Tired, went home for tea anyway.

[tomtom]

Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....

Sounds like the Almscliff policing wasn’t one of NY polices finest moments - but Manchester >> Almscliff is certainly taking the piss and deserved of a fine imho.

If I’d made such a journey, I’d have no complaints at getting fined.

[abarro81]

Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....

But they already are advisory

[Loos3-tools]

Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....

Sounds like the Almscliff policing wasn’t one of NY polices finest moments - but Manchester >> Almscliff is certainly taking the piss and deserved of a fine imho.

If I’d made such a journey, I’d have no complaints at getting fined.

You’re having a laugh surely? Such a journey ffs. What exactly is going to happen? What’s the difference between driving to Wilton or Brownstones or Almscliff? It’s tedious pedantry and bully boy policing of bugger all

[Bradders]

Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....

But they already are advisory

Absolutely...it was established ages ago with the women fined for peppermint tea walk fiasco that driving for exercise is legal and there's no legal limit on distance.

I'm so conflicted about all this though. On the one hand I'm totally outraged that the police are spending their time on such a pointless endeavour, harassing people out for a climb. And as above, I don't think there are any legal grounds for the fines (except where they were gathered in a group under Demon Wall...).

Yet on the other, I personally have been staying within a 30 minute drive for my climbing, so someone coming from Manchester does feel like taking the piss (there were several people at Caley the previous weekend who I know had come about that far too). Likewise if I'd been at the Cliff and saw that many people at Demon Wall I definitely wouldn't expect to join them.

Who flipping knows.

[Loos3-tools]

What is the difference between travelling for 30 mins or 60mins apart from the right to virtue signalling

[Paul B]

Absolutely...it was established ages ago with the women fined for peppermint tea walk fiasco that driving for exercise is legal and there's no legal limit on distance.

The NPCC guidance on the subject is always worth a re-post.

[spidermonkey09]

Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....

Sounds like the Almscliff policing wasn’t one of NY polices finest moments - but Manchester >> Almscliff is certainly taking the piss and deserved of a fine imho.

If I’d made such a journey, I’d have no complaints at getting fined.

Sorry to be pernickety, but taking the piss is not yet an offence! Whether you think it deserved a fine or not is completely irrelevant from a legal perspective.

[Tony]

Astonishingly large number of people happy with the arbitrary interpretation of legislation by police officers.

They do say the public get the Government they deserve.