[Bradders]

It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.

No. It doesn't.

You, like the police in this example, have confused the guidance with the law. The legislation says:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A

1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—

(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;

2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.

Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—

(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,

It says nothing about travel.

[spidermonkey09]

The resentment and entitlement expressed by a vocal portion of Peak residents has been one of the ugliest spectacles in a year full of ugly spectacles. Living in a National Park is not a recipe for glorious isolation, the clue's in the name  .

100%. I know its only a minority (or at least I hope it is!) but it makes my blood boil.

This would be a good thread split but is there any response that might get through or is it just too emotive? As Sam says pointing out 'its not your countryside' is correct but probably does no good. Quite apart from the fact that I'm sure the 'locals' enjoy popping into the shops in Sheffield reasonably often...

Sam: I agree, but also think that a lot of folk may have realised that they actually enjoy a nice walk and they may well be back even when the pubs reopen. My point was more that numbers are not going to drop back to normal I don't think- they will drop but will remain high- which some might say is NP's fulfilling their purpose.

[Bradders]

I think 'more folks wanting to access the outdoors' is more a by-product of all the normal haunts being closed.  When you think all gyms, pubs, restaurants, shops, cinemas, meadowhall, football matches, rugby matches, ice hockey, basket ball etc etc etc are all shut.  There's been feck all else for folks to do.  Just football alone must account for hundreds of thousands of extra folks twiddling their thumbs of a Saturday.

Yeah absolutely. And makes it all the more mental that the restrictions have been placed on the only possible outlet for people's energy that isn't a major transmission risk!

[Bonjoy]

I think 'more folks wanting to access the outdoors' is more a by-product of all the normal haunts being closed.  When you think all gyms, pubs, restaurants, shops, cinemas, meadowhall, football matches, rugby matches, ice hockey, basket ball etc etc etc are all shut.  There's been feck all else for folks to do.  Just football alone must account for hundreds of thousands of extra folks twiddling their thumbs of a Saturday.

This is probably true but I expect there'll be some lasting/legacy increase in Peak users.
The locals (most presumably live there by choice) have just been lucky that much of the nation has chosen to ignore their parks up until now. Getting upset that they've noticed and started availing themselves of a shared asset is the height of small mindedness. Like you say though, it's never going to go down well pointing this out.

[Paul B]

The resentment and entitlement expressed by a vocal portion of Peak residents has been one of the ugliest spectacles in a year full of ugly spectacles. Living in a National Park is not a recipe for glorious isolation, the clue's in the name  .

I keep harping on about this but it was pretty eye opening to see a "access for residents only" set of signage across the carriageway in Barley, one of the main villages for accessing Pendle Hill, persisting through the first lockdown. There were also "go home" signs across several PRoW. These too were ignored until the restrictions were lifted.

I did get on my high horse and query this and the answer I got, and this isn't paraphrased was "people weren't social distancing".

[nai]

Piece about teh influx of visitors to NPs this summer
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/01/the-litter-was-a-shock-2020-covid-rush-on-uk-national-parks?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1609497279

[Stuart Anderson]

It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.

No. It doesn't.

You, like the police in this example, have confused the guidance with the law. The legislation says:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A

1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—

(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;

2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.

Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—

(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,

It says nothing about travel.

For clarity, I meant the guidance.

If I was getting my nose out of joint because I'd driven up to Moscar for "exercise" when really, I could exercise nearer home and I'd been pulled for it, me personally, I'd be saying fair cop.

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.

[Paul B]

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.

How do you feel about the Police at a relatively high level suggesting they don't overly care if they're outside of the legislation if it has a positive effect?

[Stuart Anderson]

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.

How do you feel about the Police at a relatively high level suggesting they don't overly care if they're outside of the legislation if it has a positive effect?

It's shit. But there's a bigger problem at the minute, would you not agree?

[petejh]

The resentment and entitlement expressed by a vocal portion of Peak residents has been one of the ugliest spectacles in a year full of ugly spectacles. Living in a National Park is not a recipe for glorious isolation, the clue's in the name  .

I keep harping on about this but it was pretty eye opening to see a "access for residents only" set of signage across the carriageway in Barley, one of the main villages for accessing Pendle Hill, persisting through the first lockdown. There were also "go home" signs across several PRoW. These too were ignored until the restrictions were lifted.

I did get on my high horse and query this and the answer I got, and this isn't paraphrased was "people weren't social distancing".

Plenty of nimbyism in Wales in past lockdowns, haven't heard any tales from the latest one but don't doubt there will have been incidents. 
During the first lockdown I'd cycle along a bridleway in the hills near me, until a local whose house the bridleway went through blocked the right of way 'because they were shielding' (not that path users would get anywhere near them). I went onto the local council's website to report the blockage on their facilty to report problems, the website had a map showing all PRoWs with live reports data showing plenty of reports of similar unlawful blockages all over north Wales.. Council replied via email to say they weren't tackling any of these until after lockdown ended..

Can see both sides with the police in Derbyshire, a uniquely busy NP. It must be a shit job - being told to stop and question people going out for walks in the countryside, while the virus rages through England as a result of people interacting in just about all other contexts except lone exercisers.
Thing is there are plenty of people taking the piss in the outdoors by gathering in groups. From the point of view of a police officer, these piss-takers share the same characteristics with people who aren't taking the piss:
1. Driving out beyond their immediate area to the countryside tick
2. Parking in beauty spot car park tick
3. Meeting one other tick.

The only difference is that those taking the piss then go on to meet up with a load of others at some point after they leave the car park. While those not taking the piss, don't. So you can at least understand why they target anyone visiting beauty spot car parks at this time, if not why they then go on to fine those two women doing nothing wrong.

Impossible to enforce against really unless they get the Reaper drone and hellfire missiles out again.   

[abarro81]

It's shit. But there's a bigger problem at the minute, would you not agree?

I'd say that the police deciding that it's for them to decide what the law should be rather than enforcing the law as it is would be liable to be a bigger problem than bouldering on quiet bits of grit 10min drive from home.

[Paul B]

I see them both as problems and don't really feel that one excuses the other in this instance (the same logic could be applied to all sorts of things) but I'm a bit of a black/white seeing idealist with things.

[T_B]

Individuals are easy targets of course. It’ll be interesting to see if the Police make a move on the takeaway honeypots dotted around. In the park by me the cafe has erected two marquees (closed on two sides) for the old dears to sit in. Now that the schools are ‘closed’ the park is rammed with kids in the afternoons going for ice creams. Everyone mixing.

It’s hard to see this and not feel that driving 5 miles to access the countryside isn’t a ‘problem’.

[SamT]

Sam: I agree, but also think that a lot of folk may have realised that they actually enjoy a nice walk and they may well be back even when the pubs reopen. My point was more that numbers are not going to drop back to normal I don't think- they will drop but will remain high- which some might say is NP's fulfilling their purpose.

Yes, totally agree

(Perhaps worthy of a topic split - "Peak effect" or something)

[Stuart Anderson]

It's shit. But there's a bigger problem at the minute, would you not agree?

I'd say that the police deciding that it's for them to decide what the law should be rather than enforcing the law as it is would be liable to be a bigger problem than bouldering on quiet bits of grit 10min drive from home.

Plenty of speculation that the guidance contains a mixture of must and should. Get it tested in court. But then we're back in the realms of  missing the point of why the lockdown is happening. Transmission, largely, isn't the problem now.

If I'm having to pick a side (both very miserable realities) then I need to be able to look in the face of my missus and her colleagues.

[galpinos]

They asked him where he had come from and when he said Sheffield they said he was now in Derbyshire and they could therefore give him a fine.

This is arbitrary and unlawful.

Ru, do you mean the Police can’t issue a fine as all exercise is allowed regardless of distance travelled, or that crossing the county boundary is arbitrary and not a suitable interpretation of  “a reasonable distance”.

If they can’t be fined for travelling as it’s not in the legislation, can all these fines be contested?

[Bradders]

It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.

No. It doesn't.

You, like the police in this example, have confused the guidance with the law. The legislation says:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A

1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—

(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;

2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.

Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—

(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,

It says nothing about travel.

For clarity, I meant the guidance.

If I was getting my nose out of joint because I'd driven up to Moscar for "exercise" when really, I could exercise nearer home and I'd been pulled for it, me personally, I'd be saying fair cop.

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.

I mean that's just it, I 100% think that it is an unprecedented attack on our civil liberties. The combined issues being:

1. Guidance that make no logical sense, provide no actual suppression of virus transmission, and is therefore entirely unjustifiable, yet is put in place anyway.
2. As others have said, the police thinking they can make up the law themselves as they go.

Simply saying "oh but the virus" does not excuse these things.

I have every respect for your partner and the difficult time she and everyone else in the NHS is facing. I comply with every other bit of guidance. But since I can guarantee that not a single person will be in hospital with Covid having caught it outside, >2m away from anyone else, I am angry that the precious liberty to go for a walk or to climb is being challenged and I think that's an entirely justifiable concern.

[Bonjoy]

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.

This was done to death earlier in the pandemic.
I don't see a lack of UKBers "think[ing] why the guidance is there." I see people tired of being told they can't do things with infinitesimally small transmission risks, to paper over the cracks of real measures having been left too late, again. I see people wondering why their well being must be sacrificed, again, so we can have idiotic shit like Eat Out to Help Out and Boris's Xmas party. Having to do things which make no material difference got very old in lockdown one, and here we are in lockdown three being told to do exactly the same, as if nothing was learned in between. And this isn't going away any time soon, most on here are unlikely to get a jab this side of autumn. Are we to meekly accept another year written off, because speaking up for a more pragmatic approach on outdoor activities is somehow immoral?

[teestub]

Plenty of speculation that the guidance contains a mixture of must and should. Get it tested in court. But then we're back in the realms of  missing the point of why the lockdown is happening. Transmission, largely, isn't the problem now.

If I'm having to pick a side (both very miserable realities) then I need to be able to look in the face of my missus and her colleagues.

What do you see as the issue then if not transmission? Increased likelihood of people hurting themselves and ending up in hospital? Reckon I’m probably more likely to end up in A&E if I attempted to run rather than driving 5 mins to go climbing.

[Stuart Anderson]

It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.

No. It doesn't.

You, like the police in this example, have confused the guidance with the law. The legislation says:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A

1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—

(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;

2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.

Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—

(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,

It says nothing about travel.

For clarity, I meant the guidance.

If I was getting my nose out of joint because I'd driven up to Moscar for "exercise" when really, I could exercise nearer home and I'd been pulled for it, me personally, I'd be saying fair cop.

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.

I mean that's just it, I 100% think that it is an unprecedented attack on our civil liberties. The combined issues being:

1. Guidance that make no logical sense, provide no actual suppression of virus transmission, and is therefore entirely unjustifiable, yet is put in place anyway.
2. As others have said, the police thinking they can make up the law themselves as they go.

Simply saying "oh but the virus" does not excuse these things.

I have every respect for your partner and the difficult time she and everyone else in the NHS is facing. I comply with every other bit of guidance. But since I can guarantee that not a single person will be in hospital with Covid having caught it outside, >2m away from anyone else, I am angry that the precious liberty to go for a walk or to climb is being challenged and I think that's an entirely justifiable concern.

All reasonable and on any other day I'd be out on the streets. Problem is they're still dealing with RTC and all the other stupid things people do when they're out and about.

[Stuart Anderson]

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.

This was done to death earlier in the pandemic.
I don't see a lack of UKBers "think[ing] why the guidance is there." I see people tired of being told they can't do things with infinitesimally small transmission risks, to paper over the cracks of real measures having been left too late, again. I see people wondering why their well being must be sacrificed, again, so we can have idiotic shit like Eat Out to Help Out and Boris's Xmas party. Having to do things which make no material difference got very old in lockdown one, and here we are in lockdown three being told to do exactly the same, as if nothing was learned in between. And this isn't going away any time soon, most on here are unlikely to get a jab this side of autumn. Are we to meekly accept another year written off, because speaking up for a more pragmatic approach on outdoor activities is somehow immoral?

Not misaligned with anything you say. Bit of a pisser innit.

[Davo]

Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.

This was done to death earlier in the pandemic.
I don't see a lack of UKBers "think[ing] why the guidance is there." I see people tired of being told they can't do things with infinitesimally small transmission risks, to paper over the cracks of real measures having been left too late, again. I see people wondering why their well being must be sacrificed, again, so we can have idiotic shit like Eat Out to Help Out and Boris's Xmas party. Having to do things which make no material difference got very old in lockdown one, and here we are in lockdown three being told to do exactly the same, as if nothing was learned in between. And this isn't going away any time soon, most on here are unlikely to get a jab this side of autumn. Are we to meekly accept another year written off, because speaking up for a more pragmatic approach on outdoor activities is somehow immoral?

Completely agree with the above. A bit of bouldering in the outdoors does my sanity a world of good and harms no one. As far as I can see the police should deploy their resources elsewhere.

[abarro81]

Individuals are easy targets of course. It’ll be interesting to see if the Police make a move on the takeaway honeypots dotted around. In the park by me the cafe has erected two marquees (closed on two sides) for the old dears to sit in. Now that the schools are ‘closed’ the park is rammed with kids in the afternoons going for ice creams. Everyone mixing.

It’s hard to see this and not feel that driving 5 miles to access the countryside isn’t a ‘problem’.

We went for a walk through Endcliffe park the other week and I felt quite uncomfortable round the whole busier section, esp the bit near the cafe with a similar setup. Anyone who thinks that this is safer than driving out to Curbar, Burbage, or even Tideswell region to boulder or walk on your own has probably smoked a lot of crack.

Transmission, largely, isn't the problem now.

I don't think this stands up to scrutiny. Transmission is what means the next few weeks will be a shitshow. I think I know what you meant to write is probably something like "Transmission, largely, isn't the problem with going bouldering at burbage right now"? But I'm not convinced that safe bouldering (lowball, non-sketchy landing, avoid sideways heels if you have dodgy knees like me) is really more dangerous than a morning walk and an afternoon lifting bits of metal and hanging off bits of wood in my attic.

Anyway, we're going in circles and it's all arbitrary to me because I'm broken so won't be going climbing until Feb. But in Feb I'll go climbing somewhere safe to my finger, even if it's 5min more drive, to minimise the risk of close-contact physio interaction!

P.S. What Bonjoy said

[Stuart Anderson]

Individuals are easy targets of course. It’ll be interesting to see if the Police make a move on the takeaway honeypots dotted around. In the park by me the cafe has erected two marquees (closed on two sides) for the old dears to sit in. Now that the schools are ‘closed’ the park is rammed with kids in the afternoons going for ice creams. Everyone mixing.

It’s hard to see this and not feel that driving 5 miles to access the countryside isn’t a ‘problem’.

We went for a walk through Endcliffe park the other week and I felt quite uncomfortable round the whole busier section, esp the bit near the cafe with a similar setup. Anyone who thinks that this is safer than driving out to Curbar, Burbage, or even Tideswell region to boulder or walk on your own has probably smoked a lot of crack.

Transmission, largely, isn't the problem now.

I don't think this stands up to scrutiny. Transmission is what means the next few weeks will be a shitshow. I think I know what you meant to write is probably something like "Transmission, largely, isn't the problem with going bouldering at burbage right now"? But I'm not convinced that safe bouldering (lowball, non-sketchy landing, avoid sideways heels if you have dodgy knees like me) is really more dangerous than a morning walk and an afternoon lifting bits of metal and hanging off bits of wood in my attic.

Anyway, we're going in circles and it's all arbitrary to me because I'm broken so won't be going climbing until Feb. But in Feb I'll go climbing somewhere safe to my finger, even if it's 5min more drive, to minimise the risk of close-contact physio interaction!

P.S. What Bonjoy said

Ah, yeah.  The transmission over Xmas is the problem we face in the coming week or so, yes, and immediate transmission now is second to that probable issue.

Circle indeed. Safe, out.

[tomtom]

There is widespread reporting today that the present surge in covid cases, hospitalisations and fatalities are present far worse than the March\April wave - and set to get worse.

The number of deaths at today’s rate (that will increase - but will dip - I know) equates at 500 000 a year. By a disease spread by people being near to other people - that is now 50-70% better at being transmitted than in March. 

In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦‍♂️

People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...