[Andy F]

Pex Hill is still within Merseyside. That counts as local for the Scouse boulderers surely?

[sxrxg]

If you can walk or cycle there Andy I would say you would be ok. If you are coming from Crosby that is half an hour's drive I would probably say not. That is my own personal definition of "local" though. I figure if you are cycling then doing some traverses or low level eliminates and cycling home then that is legitimately all exercise and a valid excuse for being out.

[Andy F]

It's not half an hour from Crosby the way I drive...

[205Chris]

For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.

i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address

It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.

(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)

I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.

If the rules were clear they'd be broad agreement on these pages about whether or not climbing is permitted. There isn't, so the rules are obviously not clear.

The gov.uk website does permit travel to exercise but mentions you should not travel outside your local area. So again, define local?

I think until a legal professional clarifies it any attempt to guess what is or isn't illegal is just that.

As for rest between attempts - you'd basically be limiting exercise to any continuous form of exercise like running or cycling. Bad example but if you used the municipal equipment on the park to do pull ups you'd be limited to one set, the minute you drop off the Feds will sweep in and bust you.

As tomtom said, I'm sure it'll become clear what is and isn't tolerated over the next few days.

I'm off into work now, I'll be interested to see how quiet the roads are.....

[Sidehaas]

For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.

i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address

It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.

(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)

I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.

If the rules were clear they'd be broad agreement on these pages about whether or not climbing is permitted. There isn't, so the rules are obviously not clear.

The gov.uk website does permit travel to exercise but mentions you should not travel outside your local area. So again, define local?

I think until a legal professional clarifies it any attempt to guess what is or isn't illegal is just that.

As for rest between attempts - you'd basically be limiting exercise to any continuous form of exercise like running or cycling. Bad example but if you used the municipal equipment on the park to do pull ups you'd be limited to one set, the minute you drop off the Feds will sweep in and bust you.

As tomtom said, I'm sure it'll become clear what is and isn't tolerated over the next few days.

I'm off into work now, I'll be interested to see how quiet the roads are.....

The guidance does define local. It says "If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."  That ambiguity has been removed.

Outdoor gym equipment is being closed again. I agree there has to be some sense added and if someone needs a quick rest on a park bench that's presumably ok. But I don't see how you can argue it's ok if the majority of time spent outside is actually resting rather than exercising.

[205Chris]

For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.

i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address

It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.

(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)

I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.

If the rules were clear they'd be broad agreement on these pages about whether or not climbing is permitted. There isn't, so the rules are obviously not clear.

The gov.uk website does permit travel to exercise but mentions you should not travel outside your local area. So again, define local?

I think until a legal professional clarifies it any attempt to guess what is or isn't illegal is just that.

As for rest between attempts - you'd basically be limiting exercise to any continuous form of exercise like running or cycling. Bad example but if you used the municipal equipment on the park to do pull ups you'd be limited to one set, the minute you drop off the Feds will sweep in and bust you.

As tomtom said, I'm sure it'll become clear what is and isn't tolerated over the next few days.

I'm off into work now, I'll be interested to see how quiet the roads are.....

The guidance does define local. It says "If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."  That ambiguity has been removed.

Link?

[twoshoes]

The stuff Sidehaas is referring to is in the document Offwidth linked to on the previous page.

Edit - ok, the direct quote isn't, although it is in a slightly different phase. Dunno where his quote came from.

[Sidehaas]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

(The bit about town, village etc is in the first section on leaving home.)

Edit to say, this is also where Offwidths pdf came from, but I think they've removed the pdf now that the website has been fully updated.

Ps. Apologies if I came across a bit overbearing. Just trying to be helpful, even if the message is one we don't like.

[tomtom]

For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.

i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address

It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.

(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)

I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.

If the rules were clear they'd be broad agreement on these pages about whether or not climbing is permitted. There isn't, so the rules are obviously not clear.

The gov.uk website does permit travel to exercise but mentions you should not travel outside your local area. So again, define local?

I think until a legal professional clarifies it any attempt to guess what is or isn't illegal is just that.

As for rest between attempts - you'd basically be limiting exercise to any continuous form of exercise like running or cycling. Bad example but if you used the municipal equipment on the park to do pull ups you'd be limited to one set, the minute you drop off the Feds will sweep in and bust you.

As tomtom said, I'm sure it'll become clear what is and isn't tolerated over the next few days.

I'm off into work now, I'll be interested to see how quiet the roads are.....

The guidance does define local. It says "If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."  That ambiguity has been removed.

Outdoor gym equipment is being closed again. I agree there has to be some sense added and if someone needs a quick rest on a park bench that's presumably ok. But I don't see how you can argue it's ok if the majority of time spent outside is actually resting rather than exercising.

I’ve now a vision of the police crawling along next to a jogger - leaning out of the window with a megaphone shouting come on - no resting -  £200 fine... a bit like Rockys trainer cycling next to him heckling away :D

[Davo]

Personally I’m (like others) just going to leave it a week and see what police enforcement looks like. I really don’t see any justification for stopping me going bouldering but I would have to drive a distance to do it.

Dave

[spidermonkey09]

Personally I’m (like others) just going to leave it a week and see what police enforcement looks like. I really don’t see any justification for stopping me going bouldering but I would have to drive a distance to do it.

Dave

This is basically my plan as well. I think I will struggle to abstain if I see the Peak full of Sheffield and Manc residents.

[sxrxg]

If police enforcement is your only reason for not going out then you might as well go out, if we are being honest the chances of being caught are minuscule. This is similar to speeding and lots of other crimes that you can 'get away with', just because you can doesn't mean it is the right thing to be doing.

I would hope though that at this point most climbers can now see how stretched the NHS is going to be with the rising cases and will take some responsibility by staying home and not travelling during this lockdown. As has been proven by the posts here if some people start to push the rules/guidance it is likely that others will follow...

[SA Chris]

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-stay-at-home-guidance/

local outdoor recreation, sport or exercise, walking, cycling, golf, or running that starts and finishes at the same place (which can be up to 5 miles from the boundary of your local authority area) as long as you abide by the rules on meeting other households

This is the Scotland guidance, which leaves a load to interpretation; my local authority area is "Aberdeenshire", which stretches as far as Braemar (and includes a lot of mountains, as well as Glenshee and the Lecht (which are currently closed)). and down to Montrose. the 5 miles is meant to give city dwellers the opportunity to get out the city if they need to, but I expect people will use this allowance to the maximum extent. The local authority classed as "Highlands" is even bigger!

[mrjonathanr]

I wonder if my local authority is the ‘North West of England’?

[SA Chris]

Irrelevant m'lud. These are local rule for local people.

[tomtom]

UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....

[Bonjoy]

If police enforcement is your only reason for not going out then you might as well go out, if we are being honest the chances of being caught are minuscule. This is similar to speeding and lots of other crimes that you can 'get away with', just because you can doesn't mean it is the right thing to be doing.

I would hope though that at this point most climbers can now see how stretched the NHS is going to be with the rising cases and will take some responsibility by staying home and not travelling during this lockdown. As has been proven by the posts here if some people start to push the rules/guidance it is likely that others will follow...

I see what you are saying, but I suspect a lot of people are sick of whipsawing guidance, which veers erratically from the laissez faire, to the draconian. People who have spent months voluntarily avoiding doing loads of permissible, even actively promoted activities in the case of EOTHO, including largely avoiding climbing walls. I.e. risk assessing based on actual risk of transmission, rather than risk of social or legal jeopardy. People who are now asked to forgo practically riskless sanity saving activities. Perhaps you can see why they might balk at being lectured (however well meaningly) to about taking responsibility. And perhaps why they might look around for potential ways to carry on doing riskless sanity saving activities.

[SA Chris]

UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....

Didn't they hide that bit last time??

[Will Hunt]

UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....

Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).

[Davo]

I agree with Bonjoy. I have personally tried to be sensible and follow the law. I didn’t climb in the first lockdown in March but I really can’t see what risk I provide to transmission and the NHS by doing some low ball traverses that keep me sane. I find the NHS argument as convincing now as when anyone rolls out the argument about the burden on mountain rescue teams or hospitals in normal times from climbing or walking.

So, I can’t see myself heading for the sketchy highballs anytime soon (or ever for that matter) but will probably head out for some lowball traverses and boulders at some point.

[tomtom]

UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....

Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).

Nope - that's entirely your presumption.

[tomtom]

The BMC have published some guidance - the link is below - but it really just copy pastes the government guidelines. No real steer at all. Nothing new from what has been discussed earlier in this thread

https://thebmc.co.uk/covid19-latest-national-lockdown-in-england

It states that climbing is not banned in the guidelines, and repeats the definition of where you can go.

Outdoor exercise should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area, defined as “the village, town, or part of the city where you live”.

[Bradders]

If police enforcement is your only reason for not going out then you might as well go out, if we are being honest the chances of being caught are minuscule. This is similar to speeding and lots of other crimes that you can 'get away with', just because you can doesn't mean it is the right thing to be doing.

I would hope though that at this point most climbers can now see how stretched the NHS is going to be with the rising cases and will take some responsibility by staying home and not travelling during this lockdown. As has been proven by the posts here if some people start to push the rules/guidance it is likely that others will follow...

I see what you are saying, but I suspect a lot of people are sick of whipsawing guidance, which veers erratically from the laissez faire, to the draconian. People who have spent months voluntarily avoiding doing loads of permissible, even actively promoted activities in the case of EOTHO, including largely avoiding climbing walls. I.e. risk assessing based on actual risk of transmission, rather than risk of social or legal jeopardy. People who are now asked to forgo practically riskless sanity saving activities. Perhaps you can see why they might balk at being lectured (however well meaningly) to about taking responsibility. And perhaps why they might look around for potential ways to carry on doing riskless sanity saving activities.

100% agree.

[twoshoes]

If police enforcement is your only reason for not going out then you might as well go out, if we are being honest the chances of being caught are minuscule. This is similar to speeding and lots of other crimes that you can 'get away with', just because you can doesn't mean it is the right thing to be doing.

I would hope though that at this point most climbers can now see how stretched the NHS is going to be with the rising cases and will take some responsibility by staying home and not travelling during this lockdown. As has been proven by the posts here if some people start to push the rules/guidance it is likely that others will follow...

I see what you are saying, but I suspect a lot of people are sick of whipsawing guidance, which veers erratically from the laissez faire, to the draconian. People who have spent months voluntarily avoiding doing loads of permissible, even actively promoted activities in the case of EOTHO, including largely avoiding climbing walls. I.e. risk assessing based on actual risk of transmission, rather than risk of social or legal jeopardy. People who are now asked to forgo practically riskless sanity saving activities. Perhaps you can see why they might balk at being lectured (however well meaningly) to about taking responsibility. And perhaps why they might look around for potential ways to carry on doing riskless sanity saving activities.

There is perhaps an argument that there more people go out an carry out said riskless sanity saving activies, the more foot and vehical traffic there is, the more normal day to day life then appears and the more our perception of risk drops. Then more people believe it's ok for them to go and carry out their riskless sanity saving activity, which isn't perhaps now quite as safe because lots of people are doing it too (or decide it's not fair that some are out and they aren't and decide to go out too, as evidenced on this thread) and so on.

This isn't to say that I don't agree that the transmission risk in climbing is low and the mental and physical benefits are high. I'm lucky enough to have a crag 2 minutes from home, so may well be out. This is just an argument I've been having with myself that perhaps RSSAs aren't as safe as they appear. But it's a very hypothetical one...

[Will Hunt]

UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....

Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).

Nope - that's entirely your presumption.

So why have a go at them? Climbing is allowed, given certain restrictions.