[Fiend]

So my grandson who lives in NY has been off school because someone connected to a class mate tested positive. So he came to stay with us in Tier 3 because my daughter had to work( Building Society) son in law in army is having to stay in camp because he’s no transport to get too and from camp to home. We will have him again next week then on Friday I will take him back to NY via Barnard Castle pick daughter up and drive back via Durham in to Tier 3 so she can pick up husbands new car. Then she will drive back via Barnard Castle to another bit of NY to pick him up, then go home via Durham.
Are we breaking many rules.

No, I think you're fine 

[webbo]

Will I be ok to take him for his swimming lesson on the way back from the crag.

[petejh]

Provided he swims in a mask I don't see a problem 

[webbo]

6 year olds don’t need to wear masks.
On slight tangent it appears that there is a house in Otley that’s in Tier 3 but the gardens in Tier 2.

[mrjonathanr]

Where is the board??

[webbo]

 

[tomtom]

Yup >>  https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i

Anyway the IG post has nudged me to post.

Even before Covid I used to ask people if they minded if I joined them under a block/problem... just seemed polite. Now it’s more important than manners - but only twice in the last 6 months has someone asked me if it’s ok to join.

That’s a shame - and it’s not that people are bad - just don’t realise it can make others uncomfortable. A couple of times I’ve just upped sticks and moved on - and also had people waiting for me to go when I’m close (like in the IG post). (Nick - that’s not you btw!).

Please ask - and maybe when you ask also say “if not it’s no problem I fully understand” etc...

[spidermonkey09]

Yup >>  https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i

Anyway the IG post has nudged me to post.

Even before Covid I used to ask people if they minded if I joined them under a block/problem... just seemed polite. Now it’s more important than manners - but only twice in the last 6 months has someone asked me if it’s ok to join.

That’s a shame - and it’s not that people are bad - just don’t realise it can make others uncomfortable. A couple of times I’ve just upped sticks and moved on - and also had people waiting for me to go when I’m close (like in the IG post). (Nick - that’s not you btw!).

Please ask - and maybe when you ask also say “if not it’s no problem I fully understand” etc...

There's a few different issues here aren't there. On politeness grounds, clearly turning up playing music/dropping litter isn't in and that's the biggest issue. On covid grounds, like you I would always ask out of politeness but tbh (maybe I'm part of the problem!) I would be pretty taken aback if someone genuinely said they weren't ok with me joining. Its a bit like the sport climbing/draws thing, one doesn't get to reserve a boulder in perpetuity by putting pads under it. Perfectly possible to safely distance while under the same bit of rock and that should be the default setting. That said I agree with Dave's comment on the IG in large part.

[tomtom]

I think different people have different perceptions about what safe distance means - and I’d like people to be appreciative of that. And if someone is uncomfortable having lots of people around then that’s just as valid a feeling as someone who isn’t.

Though I think the metaphor to reserving a sport route doesn’t quite hold for bouldering. The nature of working a problem to a route  had a very different rhythm (from what I remember about climbing with a rope!)

There’s quite a few problems I’ve worked where the landing / patio really only works for one or two people - and of someone is there and I want to go on it I’ll go somewhere else for a while. Or maybe ask if they can text me when they are off.

[spidermonkey09]

I think different people have different perceptions about what safe distance means - and I’d like people to be appreciative of that. And if someone is uncomfortable having lots of people around then that’s just as valid a feeling as someone who isn’t.

Though I think the metaphor to reserving a sport route doesn’t quite hold for bouldering. The nature of working a problem to a route  had a very different rhythm (from what I remember about climbing with a rope!)

There’s quite a few problems I’ve worked where the landing / patio really only works for one or two people - and of someone is there and I want to go on it I’ll go somewhere else for a while. Or maybe ask if they can text me when they are off.

I think this is true up to a point but is context dependent. If someone is uncomfortable having lots of people around them, clearly thats fair enough, but venue/which day it is becomes relevant. I don't think it would be reasonable for someone to plonk their pads under The Terrace at Burbage North on a sunny Saturday for example and not want anyone else to try it at the same time.

The comparison to sport climbing holds in the sense that multiple people are touching the same holds and its possible to get out the way while someone else is trying it. If the issue is actually anyone else being present rather than how to best manage that then I don't think that's reasonable in every scenario. Ideally a bit of compromise and just going somewhere else for a while is how things will work in practice 95% of the time and that's all to the good, but its interesting thinking about these questions. I don't think a blanket 'if someone else is climbing there go somewhere else' is remotely workable tbh, especially seeing the Peak at weekends! Communication and politeness though, I am obviously all in favour of.

[tomtom]

Absolutely - and because the issue isn’t binary it’s impossible to have a hard and fast rule - It’s down to judgement and etiquette (meaning unwritten rules or customs here).

By rhythm with sport climbing I meant people tend to spend much longer on an attempt and longer in between attempts. I’ll rarely spend more than an hour under a problem.

[Davo]

I agree with spidermonkey here. I generally always ask if it’s okay to join in but I would also be pretty taken aback if someone said no. I mostly think it’s about being reasonable: if you aren’t comfortable with people then definitely don’t go to a busy crag at the weekend. I also don’t believe that by putting pads underneath something or a rope up something that you can reserve that route/Boulder for yourself. I don’t feel (personally) that Covid has changed that.

That being said if someone did explain that they would prefer to socially distance then I would try my best to be reasonable and potentially come back to the problem later. This is much easier to do bouldering but with a route coming back later often really isn’t an option.

Dave

[abarro81]

On routes I'd typically expect to ask, and expect to be told it's ok to also climb. But beyond a certain busyness I'd find something else to try and would expect others to stop joining the queue. E.g. if there were 4/5 people on a route and someone else wanted to join I'd think they were being both stupid, and a dick.

P.S. These conversations remind me why the "growing our sport" brigade can do one.

[galpinos]

Yup >>  https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i

That’s a shame - and it’s not that people are bad - just don’t realise it can make others uncomfortable. A couple of times I’ve just upped sticks and moved on - and also had people waiting for me to go when I’m close (like in the IG post). (Nick - that’s not you btw!).

TBH, I felt a bit guilty hanging around and retrospectively felt I should have just gone to try something else. I would have felt doubly guilty if Dolly hadn't have got the tick. I actually think I would have left if I hadn't of known you as stayed for a "socially distanced chat".

[Davo]

On routes I'd typically expect to ask, and expect to be told it's ok to also climb. But beyond a certain busyness I'd find something else to try and would expect others to stop joining the queue. E.g. if there were 4/5 people on a route and someone else wanted to join I'd think they were being both stupid, and a dick.

P.S. These conversations remind me why the "growing our sport" brigade can do one.

Yep I agree with all parts of that

[Doylo]

P.S. These conversations remind me why the "growing our sport" brigade can do one.

Fuckin mental. If you want to grow things get an allotment or a viagra prescription. We live on a tiny ridiculously congested island with a population bigger than Canada and Australia combined and some conts want to cram even more of the fuckers onto our mostly tiny crags to fuck them even more and make the whole experience joyless and tormenting. 

[Dolly]

Yup >>  https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i

That’s a shame - and it’s not that people are bad - just don’t realise it can make others uncomfortable. A couple of times I’ve just upped sticks and moved on - and also had people waiting for me to go when I’m close (like in the IG post). (Nick - that’s not you btw!).

TBH, I felt a bit guilty hanging around and retrospectively felt I should have just gone to try something else. I would have felt doubly guilty if Dolly hadn't have got the tick. I actually think I would have left if I hadn't of known you as stayed for a "socially distanced chat".

Not at all from my point of view mate. The fact you were so genuinely reasonable and demonstrably ok with me saying no helped me feel comfortable. As I said in my comment when I wadded you I really appreciated the genuine question and willingness to hear “no”

[Fiend]

P.S. These conversations remind me why the "growing our sport" brigade can do one.

Fuckin mental. If you want to grow things get an allotment or a viagra prescription. We live on a tiny ridiculously congested island with a population bigger than Canada and Australia combined and some conts want to cram even more of the fuckers onto our mostly tiny crags to fuck them even more and make the whole experience joyless and tormenting. 

  Brilliant. Should be shoehorned in to a new BMC / Climbing GB slogan.

On the subject of good, if slightly less eloquent, quotes, this one from monkey boy in that IG post is worth highlighting...

The Peak District has been over run and people are unable to think clearly about nature and others when they want to climb. It almost seems like people feel they have a right. No space to park, fuck it I’ll leave my car in the middle of the road. Someone projecting the climb I want to try, no worries 10 of us will get on it too. Wet rock, apply chalk 🤦🏻‍♂️. I’ve been saying for years that walls should run courses to teach outdoor etiquette to new climbers.

Little more to add except it should be obvious that with greater numbers, greater pressures and sensitivities due to Covid-5G, there should be greater responsibility and better behaviour.

[nai]

I agree with spidermonkey here. I generally always ask if it’s okay to join in but I would also be pretty taken aback if someone said no. I mostly think it’s about being reasonable: if you aren’t comfortable with people then definitely don’t go to a busy crag at the weekend. I also don’t believe that by putting pads underneath something or a rope up something that you can reserve that route/Boulder for yourself. I don’t feel (personally) that Covid has changed that.

I'm quite the opposite, I wouldn't even try to join in with anyone currently (I ask how long they think they might be and plan to return) and even If I wanted to climb in the same area I would check they were happy with that. 
And I generally wouldn't be happy letting anyone join in with me, how you approach and broach the subject will help massively though.
Fortunately I'm ony out midweek but even that is pretty busy recently, it's pretty soul destroying some of the behaviour out there at the moment, from "parking" to massive groups and the lack of respect some people have for one another.

[steveri]

Even before Covid I used to ask people if they minded if I joined them under a block/problem... just seemed polite.

I had a funny one recently with some folk getting too close. It wasn't something I was fussed about so it was easier to move on ...but then they started looking a bit iffy higher up so felt obliged to spot their dirty disease ridden body.

[spidermonkey09]

I'm quite the opposite, I wouldn't even try to join in with anyone currently (I ask how long they think they might be and plan to return) and even If I wanted to climb in the same area I would check they were happy with that. 
And I generally wouldn't be happy letting anyone join in with me, how you approach and broach the subject will help massively though.
Fortunately I'm ony out midweek but even that is pretty busy recently, it's pretty soul destroying some of the behaviour out there at the moment, from "parking" to massive groups and the lack of respect some people have for one another.

Fair dos, although as a weekend warrior I don't think I'd get much climbing done if I had a similar ethos. The parking issue is massive and worse than ever, don't think I had appreciated the role of the Fox House car park in terms of getting 100+ cars off the road every weekend. The only solution is more infrastructure, which probably won't happen...

[sdm]

I agree with spidermonkey here. I generally always ask if it’s okay to join in but I would also be pretty taken aback if someone said no. I mostly think it’s about being reasonable: if you aren’t comfortable with people then definitely don’t go to a busy crag at the weekend. I also don’t believe that by putting pads underneath something or a rope up something that you can reserve that route/Boulder for yourself. I don’t feel (personally) that Covid has changed that.

For me, covid does change things because everybody has such different risk profiles. It doesn't give people the right to reserve a boulder but I think everyone has a duty to respect that not everybody is in a position to have an equal acceptance of risk, even outdoors.

But it is very dependent on the situation and location. If someone has gone to Harland Edge or Howshaw Tor on a Tuesday morning, they might have a reasonable expectation of being able to have a quiet time, isolated from others. If someone has gone to the cave at Raven Tor or Kudos wall on a wet Saturday, they do not have a reasonable expectation of having a peaceful day away from others and they can't expect to ask someone not to join them on a particular problem.

I always ask before joining people, even in non-covid times.

If I want to climb at some dank limestone cave with little airflow and I find someone is there first, I make it clear that is ok to say no if they aren't comfortable and I'll move on. I might feel put out if someone were to say no at some moorland grit with loads of airflow where it is easy to distance between attempts.

I don't think anybody has said no at all this year but I have spent much of the year avoiding busy places.

I have moved on from places where people have been incapable of distancing and I've chosen to go to another boulder or buttress rather than join people if places are busy. I also drove on to another venue at times in the summer when it was clear from the car park that somewhere was too busy for distancing to be possible.

[nai]

the only solution is reopening all the entertainment venues and chainstraunts now I fully appreciate the role they perform in keeping other people away from places I like to be

[spidermonkey09]

Truth. Although if the genie is out the bottle now and people continue to like being outside more than they did before we're all fucked!

[petejh]

I think the recent posts on sharing/not sharing just highlight how unequal the exposure risk to covid is. It’s very apparent when you look at the risk some people have no choice to be exposed to.

Afaik many people posting here work mainly or entirely from home. I do, 95% since March. I’m lucky.

Person A, working mainly from home, sat under boulder. Person B, turns up. They don’t work from home. To earn money and keep their job they have to a encounter lot of others on a daily basis - on a scale of one or two others, to being crammed with many others in confined indoor spaces with poor ventilation. Forget ‘covid-safe’ it’s a workplace myth and just box ticking to make managers feel like they’ve done something positive. ‘Covid safe’ is a bit like saying ‘flu-safe’ - it isn’t and can’t be.

Person A is a bit miffed that on their time off from home-working when they go outdoors bouldering other people don’t respect not sharing the boulder problem they’re on.
Politeness is important to grease society, but I think person A needs some perspective.