[Stu Littlefair]

Yeah sorry Gav - but guilty of exactly what I’m complaining about here.

[abarro81]

Read your reply now Ali (didn't read the rest of the thread, too long!) - seems very reasonable, especially that you would have stripped your stuff out if it had been his proj. Pity it sounds like he didn't engage on the thread, probably because your post was too reasonable! Maybe edit it to call him a knob and you'll get a response

RE: behaviour - I'd say Kilnsey on Sat is reflective of how the peak has been the last few weeks. Things started ok for the first few weeks but have definitely returned to semi-normal. Most teen/20s climbers I've seen/heard at the crag don't appear to give a shit about lift sharing or groups or distancing.

P.s. Kilnsey had probably <50% of the numbers on Sunday, think it was just the combo of the forecast and the peak being wet why it was so busy

P.p.s. I'm sceptical that sharing draws is notably more unsafe than climbing a route and then someone else climbing it. E.g. it sounds like your girlfriend was on ground effect about 1hr before Ella was - not sure that's significantly different to sharing, though I guess it reduces transmission possibility to 1 direction rather than 2 so maybe it is?? Thinking aloud here...

[Neil F]

I'm not sure if you're the same Neil F who posted on the other channel, but thought this was the best part of that thread:

"If all those getting on their high horses on this thread deploy those horses at the crag, the tricky undercut starts must have been all but eliminated!"

Yep, that was me.

It felt a bit like putting your head in the lion's den, posting in support of Ali in the face of such an overwhelming blizzard of criticism, so I thought I'd hide behind an attempt at humour...   

Fortunately the thread became much more balanced after that, but I wouldn't have wanted to be in Ali's shoes in the face of the initial onslaught.

Neil

[Jerry Morefat]

It sounds like that’s where we are now. This raises a bit of an issue; there will be people who wish to be more cautious sharing crags with people who are past giving a fuck. Without a bit of understanding and polite tolerance of the other perspective, this is going to allow people to fuck up other people’s days.

  .

FWIW Ali, if I had wanted to do the route, I would have probably asked if I could have pulled your rope and when you explained you would rather I didn't as you were being careful re: CV-19 I would have totally understand and moved on. The "well you shouldn't have been at the crag if you were concerned about CV-19" argument is a little intolerant in my opinion. It's perfectly possible to take precautions at busy crags, even Kilnsey I would have thought.

[abarro81]

FWIW Ali, if I had wanted to do the route, I would have probably asked if I could have pulled your rope and when you explained you would rather I didn't as you were being careful re: CV-19 I would have totally understand and moved on.

I agree with this if someone is already fully on the route (been up it, put draws in etc), but like I said earlier, not if they've just smashed draw 1 in to reserve the route. Turns out the difficulty here was that it was neither of those 2 options...

[Bradders]

As for general Covid crag behaviour on Saturday and the reason I revived this thread...I witnessed or experienced the following: people brushing past or even bumping into me, someone absent mindedly pulling on my little warm up fingerboard thing hung beneath the route, up to 4 people swinging leads on the same route and quickdraws, large group swapping partners and sharing ropes throughout the day, conversation about lift sharing with what sounded like 3 or 4 in the car (I got the impression not from the same household), general mingling or sitting around pretty close, someone picking up our guidebook, someone asking to borrow our clipstick (awkward discussion declining). I realise this sounds like a grumpy old twat moaning and being over-sensitive (some of these may now be within govt guidelines - I’ve lost track) but it’s just so far away from what I imagined behaviour would be like when this was all being discussed during lockdown.

Regards the general discussion, when I've been out bouldering in the past couple of weeks it's been similar; some being cautious and keeping to themselves, others completely reverting to pre-covid behaviour, lift-sharing, etc.

To be honest though I have complete sympathy with those now ignoring the guidelines. The gradual relaxation of lockdown has been so poorly managed it's easy to understand how most people have just switched off and started making their own minds up about what is acceptable or not.

[Paul B]

I agree with this if someone is already fully on the route (been up it, put draws in etc), but like I said earlier, not if they've just smashed draw 1 in to reserve the route.

This is where I was at.

Regards the general discussion, when I've been out bouldering in the past couple of weeks it's been similar; some being cautious and keeping to themselves, others completely reverting to pre-covid behaviour, lift-sharing, etc.

Cycling seems to be going the same way too. My Dad's club are riding as groups of six, noting the limitations on numbers but not really acknowledging the SD requirements (they're all old). I think it's pretty difficult to do this as a pair let alone 6!

To be honest though I have complete sympathy with those now ignoring the guidelines. The gradual relaxation of lockdown has been so poorly managed it's easy to understand how most people have just switched off and started making their own minds up about what is acceptable or not.

This should probably be in one of the other Covid threads but a group of around 10 Lancs./Yorks. gastro-pubs went into administration last week (300 employees). As a result another similar group has announced they're opening on the 4/7 regardless of the Gov. position (after seeing what's happened to the other owner/friend) as there's "nothing to lose" and beyond that date they would need to let 25% of their staff go immediately.

[Johnny Brown]

Key point from that thread for me was:

you initially said if I wasn't happy about you getting on it just say no and that would be fine

A bit of honesty at the start and I'm sure the response would have been different.

[mrjonathanr]

Communication issue- people don't find it easy to say what they mean, then feel uncomfortable afterwards. I'm no different. It reminds me of this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/chart-shows-what-british-people-say-what-they-really-mean-and-what-others-understand-a6730046.html

[spidermonkey09]

Sounds to me like several things are simultaneously true here.

1) Ali was wrong to try and reserve the route.
2) the other guy was wrong not approaching the conversation with some tact and consideration.
3) there is a disconnect between what some people think should be current crag etiquette versus those who have returned to an almost pre covid state of affairs. That us visible even on this thread.
4) UKC is a vipers nest. The first responses were fine. The next 100, less so!

In my sport climbing the last few weeks I have been sharing ropes and draws, but sanitising reasonably often and doing my best to keep my distance from everyone at the crag. This is sometimes easy, sometimes hard. Others will be being stricter but unless you are climbing something very unpopular I think that it's basically certain that some level of shared use of equipment will happen. Particularly if you aren't onsighting, as no one is going to take all the draws out between each go.

Basically I have no doubt Ali is coming from a good place and one of conviction but I definitely think you're swimming against the crowd on this one.

[Paul B]

....but it’s not like the Bulge or Comedy. No one had been on it this year yet. As far as Kilnsey goes I thought it was as safe a bet as I could go for. Anyway, I’ve done the route now and Kilnsey is out for me at weekends.

I think this is a good time to remember that, when asked Three Nine replied to some poor bloke telling him to go and find another route at Kilnsey (admittedly there were a few others already).

Is he still banned? 

[Oldmanmatt]

....but it’s not like the Bulge or Comedy. No one had been on it this year yet. As far as Kilnsey goes I thought it was as safe a bet as I could go for. Anyway, I’ve done the route now and Kilnsey is out for me at weekends.

I think this is a good time to remember that, when asked Three Nine replied to some poor bloke telling him to go and find another route at Kilnsey (admittedly there were a few others already).

Is he still banned? 

I believe so.

We were Facebook friends, but my overt atheism and his Bible thumping, antiabortion, Catholic stance, lead to a FB divorce...

Anyway, I never could quite reconcile his declared Christian ethos, with his incredibly thorny personality and treatment of others. Hey ho.

[abarro81]

He's not been climbing for a while so I doubt he has a clue if he's still banned.

[Doylo]

Hope he finally managed to lose his virginity and it was all that he’d dreamed about.

[turnipturned]

I think we should employ a 10mile radius local only rule at Kilnsey, be done with all you f**ckers.

[spidermonkey09]

I think we should employ a 10mile radius local only rule at Kilnsey, be done with all you f**ckers.

Weren't there signs up to this effect in the village at the height of the pandemic? You're probably a bit too much of an outsider for their liking Dan 

[SA Chris]

Only if you've been living in the place for 3 generations do you get to paddle into a wave, Broch rules.

[ali k]

Ali asked for opinions, and Gav gave his, which seems fair enough to me.

I was just asking for opinions and experiences around general Covid crag etiquette on here to get an idea of what the consensus now was, not about that specific incident. I only read the stuff on the other channel after I'd revived this thread. But if anyone else wants to have a go at me that hasn't already that's also fine! 

Most teen/20s climbers I've seen/heard at the crag don't appear to give a shit about lift sharing or groups or distancing.

I've only had two bad experiences at the crag since Covid came along. One just before lockdown in March when my girlfriend was top roping something at an almost entirely empty crag and a group of teen/20s climbers asked to warm up on our rope. When she said she'd rather they didn't due to infection risk but would be off the route soon they looked at us like we were from another planet. The other was on Saturday with people similar age. Maybe it's the youth invincibility thing? Every other time out has been pretty respectful with people keeping their distance and checking it's ok with others before they did whatever they wanted to do.

Key point from that thread for me was:

you initially said if I wasn't happy about you getting on it just say no and that would be fine

A bit of honesty at the start and I'm sure the response would have been different.

I didn't want to write a full transcript of the conversation over there on the other channel but this original position of just wanting to warm up on something and it being fine to say no changed very quickly to "Well I'm gonna get on it at some point today anyway" in an attempt to twist my arm. Despite there being a 7b+ free in between us and the route he was trying to get on. That's what got my back up and made me dig my heels in I think. But I shouldn't have done that, I should have just lowered my partner down and stripped the draw out for him.

I have no doubt Ali is coming from a good place and one of conviction but I definitely think you're swimming against the crowd on this one.

Yes agreed. From replies on both channels I can see that's the case and will adapt to avoid a repeat.

[T_B]

Deputy Chief Medical Officer just said you have a 1 in 1700 chance of “meeting the virus” out in the community. The risk of catching it off a rope/draw at Kilnsey must be minuscule. I’d be more concerned about my belayer being distracted with so many climbers at the crag.

[Will Hunt]

Basically all the Peak people need to stay down south and not come up here clarting up our crags.

[Stu Littlefair]

Tom, if that’s what he said it’s highly misleading.

1/1700 people currently have Covid-19. To find your chances of encountering Covid at kilnsey, multiply by the number of people there.

Still small, isn’t it?

But with 50-100 climbers on a busy day it’s up to 1/17 which is not so small.

I’d concentrate on the odds of transmission, which thankfully are also small.

[mikenty]

....but it’s not like the Bulge or Comedy. No one had been on it this year yet. As far as Kilnsey goes I thought it was as safe a bet as I could go for. Anyway, I’ve done the route now and Kilnsey is out for me at weekends.

I think this is a good time to remember that, when asked Three Nine replied to some poor bloke telling him to go and find another route at Kilnsey (admittedly there were a few others already).

Is he still banned? 

Ah, this was me. To be honest he wasn’t very intimidating so we just got on the Bulge anyway

[ali k]

The risk of catching it off a rope/draw at Kilnsey must be minuscule.

I can’t explain it. Rationally I know all this, and I’ve done far riskier things in my climbing life. I’ve just got completely paranoid for some reason.

[Adam Lincoln]

The risk of catching it off a rope/draw at Kilnsey must be minuscule.

I can’t explain it. Rationally I know all this, and I’ve done far riskier things in my climbing life. I’ve just got completely paranoid for some reason.

Probably used all your bravery when you ticked Pembroke.

[T_B]

Tom, if that’s what he said it’s highly misleading.

What she said was “ You’d have to meet 1700 people before you came across a case of infection ” so you’re right of course. Apart from Lees Bottom I haven’t been to a crag with 50 - 100 climbers and can imagine why people might find that uncomfortable, Covid or no Covid.