[tomtom]

I normally try and go to off the beaten track places - but to be honest really struggle to think of anywhere where I wouldn’t stand a chance of being spotted going in , out or climbing by a member of the public or the landowner.

Maybe I’m not thinking hard enough... anyhoo I’m committed to not going out for the foreseeable future anyway.

[Ged]

I agree that climbing at the tor is unwise in terms of being seen by locals and non climbers and the potential impact that has and also in terms of the backlash from the climbing community.

However I really can’t see much issue with going to a isolated venue somewhere if you can get there without breaking the regulations.

As I have mentioned earlier in the thread my gripes are not with a few people going climbing causing minimal transmission risks. My issues are with large industries such as the construction industry carrying on as usual and now firms like Taylor Wimpey stating that they are going to have precautions in place that will enable them to get fully back to work! This is complete BS and should be stopped. I have seen plenty of contractors out recently with absolutely no precautions going on and suspect very much that there will be no actual precautions taking place on any building sites (well precautions that are effective).

Personally I haven’t gone out climbing but am becoming more and more tempted and am not keen on harshly judging others. A bit of of bouldering or some isolated sport climbing holds virtually nil risks and the longer this goes on with me seeing plenty of businesses carrying on virtually as normal the less I think the restrictions regarding exercise are reasonable.

As I have said on the other BMC thread rather than think of why not to go climbing we should start thinking about how we could go climbing safely or without breaking regulations.

I'm sure this has been said elsewhere, but the whole point surely is that the only reason it is an isolated venue, is because the rest of us are not going there.  If we all said sod it, the crags would be rammed, and lockdown would get a lot stricter very quickly. 

I agree that a better approach long term from the BMC is to start looking at guidance so people can go climbing, but until that happens, everyone needs to play ball.

[ashtond6]

This thread really is going around in circles 

What happened to the BMC thread? Can't find it.

[Murph]

What happened to the BMC thread? Can't find it.

Hiding in the bmc discussions. 
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/board,57.0.html

[steveri]

I ran past a local venue for a peek this weekend and saw fresh chalk (and some serious gardening). Lowball spot in the trees. I'm not going climbing but it would be high on my list for when I do stop virtue signalling. I've sometimes come away using the mat for no more than stepping off with dry feet at the end of a traverse.

At the moment I think virtue signalling is still a good thing, any weakening is going to come alongside lots of other people weakening for their own special cases and we're already seeing more traffic and general milling around.

[TobyD]

I'm sure this has been said elsewhere, but the whole point surely is that the only reason it is an isolated venue, is because the rest of us are not going there.  If we all said sod it, the crags would be rammed, and lockdown would get a lot stricter very quickly. 

I agree that a better approach long term from the BMC is to start looking at guidance so people can go climbing, but until that happens, everyone needs to play ball.

I agree. That's really why climbing now is selfish as if everyone who wanted to did Stanage etc would be rammed, people would start traveling from miles away. The sort of climbing lots of people would be doing is not going to lend itself to distancing.
Guidance eg don't drive more than XYZ distance, boulder, minimal amount of risk perhaps might be good. I could walk to Stanage from my house but haven't.

[Wil]

This thread really is going around in circles 

It's making me dizzy too.

I think the thing we're just about getting to, and which is confusing from a law/guidance/morality perspective is that we're used to laws which directly prevent harm to someone or something, whether it's people, finances, animals, the environment. There's usually a clearer link between the lawbreaker and the damage. I think we all struggle to get our heads around that, and I think our western idea of freedom is partly to blame.

The answer to the "Can we climb yet?" question seems, to me, to be a clear no in almost all cases. It doesn't follow that a few individuals are causing genuine harm (in a virus spreading sense) by going out. It's a collective sense of "But I'm not going out, I'm being good!" that's getting us and that doesn't compute with our normal understanding of rule following.

I think also, as a society (outside of the climbing world) we're struggling to understand the actual risk of doing things. Working with Covid-19 cases, or in a building with them, is going to be a higher risk than elsewhere. But for most activities or work, with other peoples social distancing, I don't think the risk as an individual is necessarily very high. I see posts on Facebook saying how brave teachers are for still working and "putting themselves at risk" and I wonder whether they really are. Sure, staying indoors is going to be better than not, but heading out to work at the moment may well be the same baseline risk of infection as normal, one we wouldn't even think about. I think for many of us we're struggling to get our heads round the difference between individual risk and societal risk and responsibility.

[mrjonathanr]

Good point, it's the aggregated group risk rather than individual risk which is hard to see and to feel.

You might like my cousin's observation the other night - currently in LA- that the US is struggling ' because coronavirus is the most un-American thing EVER' . He elaborated that it 'interferes with your right to do whatever you want whenever you want it'.

I guess we are all struggling with that.

[SA Chris]

coming up for 50 pages of going round in circles. Impressive even by UKC standards.

[tomtom]

coming up for 50 pages of going round in circles. Impressive even by UKC standards.

And no mentions of Dense yet!

[Johnny Brown]

That's really why climbing now is selfish as if everyone who wanted to did Stanage etc would be rammed, people would start traveling from miles away.

I don't think so. The guidance on unnecessary travel is much less opaque than that on what exercise is permitted.

[Dac]

Something I have been thinking about is that, when we enter the stage where lockdown is being eased and some climbing is permitted, how will people interpret terms such as 'remote' and 'quiet' when it comes to choosing a climbing venue. After all what a climber based in the Scottish Highlands considers remote is rather different to what a climber based in Sheffield might.

Someone commented that in Sweden a large number of principally indoor climbers have been venturing outside as indoor walls remain closed. If 99% of your climbing is done indoors then somewhere like Stanage left hand end or Back Bowden is going to be considered to be like the back of beyond. Just because one climber considers a venue to be quiet and isolated doesn't mean another climber ( or landowner/farmer/ passer by ) would.

[T_B]

Just create a list of crags to avoid for the time being.

[Adam Lincoln]

coming up for 50 pages of going round in circles. Impressive even by UKC standards.

And no mentions of Dense yet!

Dense is too busy going around in circles in his garage rafters.

[SA Chris]

He's turned into a bat?

[tomtom]

He's turned into a bat?

I thought that was Jasper? 🧛‍♂️ 😃

[spidermonkey09]

Coronavirus: North Yorkshire day-trippers 'ignore' rules https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-52442573

Whatever any of us here think about the guidance/policy/whatever, I think we can all be glad it isnt climbers getting a slating in this piece!

[SA Chris]

Likewise these tugnuts.

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2020-04-26/abusive-tourist-who-travelled-180-miles-to-climb-snowdon-gets-armed-police-treatment/

Unfortunately to Joe Public they are "climbing" Snowdon and are therefore "climbers".

[petejh]

This isn't posted to make light of tragic stats nor is it made in the spirit of trying to 'win' any argument. But it was pretty eye-opening to me to find out today from a report in Road cc that deaths of cyclists during the first month of lockdown are over 300% higher than the annual average. 20 deaths during April..   
That's eye-watering. The report lists 15 deaths, then I scrolled down and read the comments  and people have pointed out a further 5 deaths with links to newspaper reports for each.. Crazy.
Deaths are also over 300% higher than the average for April (i.e. April is not on average a bad month) with previous Aprils having, at most, 9 deaths and, at least, 4 deaths.
I instinctively assumed it must be newbie older bikers having heart-attacks. But that isn't it, see below, virtually all collisions involving other vehicle. I also assumed the deaths would mostly be cyclists in London - nope, nationwide on all sorts of roads.
Report here:  https://road.cc/content/news/cyclist-deaths-during-lockdown-2x-average-time-year-272987
Follow up: https://road.cc/content/news/15-cyclists-killed-during-lockdown-what-we-know-so-far-273017

Applying a hierarchy of risk model from near-miss, up through minor accident, major accident and fatality you can begin to imagine how many minor, serious and v.serious injuries there would have been in addition to 20 fatalities. It makes the concerns of MR look a bit trivial in comparison. The relevance to the whole debate around risk of accident, impact on healthcare and risk of transmission to healthcare workers is obvious.

Can people really claim that climbing or hill-walking is, per head, anywhere near this level of impact on the health service and risk of transmission to healthcare workers? What are the per head stats for climbing?


Grim stats:

26 March(link is external) – A male cyclist aged in his 80s died at Addenbrooke’s Hospital in Cambridge the day after a collision involving a van on the city’s Newmarket Road at the roundabout with Barnwell Road.  No arrest has reportedly been made.

26 March (link is external)– A male cyclist was killed in Moira, near Lisburn, Northern Ireland, after a collision involving a SEAT Leon car. The driver was not reported to have been arrested. The victim's age was not disclosed.

1 April (link is external)– A male cyclist aged 50 died in hospital from injuries he sustained in a collision involving a van in Alford, Lincolnshire, on the morning of 23 March – later that day, the UK-wide lockdown would be announced. There are no reports of any arrest being made.

3 April(link is external) – xx xx, aged 57, died in hospital from injuries sustained earlier that day as a result of a collision involving a tractor near Balsall Common, Solihull. The driver was reported to be assisting police with their enquiries.

7 April (link is external)– Metropolitan Police intelligence analyst xx xx, aged 25, was killed in a collision involving two other vehicles in Worcester Park, south west London, as she rode to work. No arrests have been reported.

8 April(link is external) – A male cyclist aged in his 60s died as a result of a collision involving a van in the village of Compton near Guildford, Surrey. The driver of the van was treated for minor injuries. There are no reports of any arrest.

10 April (link is external)– xx xx, aged 36, was killed in a collision involving a car near Menai Bridge, Anglesey. There are no reports of an arrest having been made.

11 April (link is external)– Cyclist xx xx, aged 40, died in hospital in Cardiff from injuries he sustained the previous day in a collision involving a Peugeot 208 car in Ebbw Vale. Police arrested the driver of the vehicle at the scene on suspicion of causing serious injury by dangerous driving. He was subsequently released while investigations continue.

13 April (link is external)– A male cyclist aged in his 50s died in hospital in Surrey following a collision the previous day in Sunbury. The driver of the vehicle involved, a Mercedes CLK coupé, was arrested at the scene on suspicion of causing serious injury by dangerous driving and was subsequently released under investigation.

15 April(link is external) – xx xx, aged 67, was killed in Port Talbot, South Wales. There was no report of the driver of the vehicle involved in the incident, a Ford Fiesta, being arrested.

16 April(link is external) – A cyclist died at the scene of a collision involving a lorry at Market Deeping, Northamptonshire. No arrests have been reported.

17 April (link is external)– An 18-year-old male cyclist died on the A1086 between Blackhall and Horden, County Durham. Police said: “His death is not being treated as suspicious and a file is being prepared for the coroner.”

18 April (link is external)– xx xx, 44, died in the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Birmingham, die to injuries sustained in a collision involving a Fiat Punto car in Tamworth, Staffordshire on 15 April. No arrests have been made.

20 April (link is external)– xx xx, aged 80 and a keen cyclist and triathlete, was killed in Hatfield, Hertfordshire. A 23-year-old woman from Hertford was arrested at the scene on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving. She has since been released under investigation.

22 April (link is external)– An unnamed male cyclist, aged 55, died at Dibbles Bridge, North Yorkshire. There was not report of another vehicle being involved and police have appealed for witnesses. The Yorkshire Post reports that two other cyclists have been killed at the same location in recent years, both after being thrown over the bridge parapet onto the riverbed below.

[Paul B]

In short, no.

That's pretty horrendous reading and makes Old Cheese's point about mine and others' internal risk assessment potentially being (way) off fairly clearly.

 

There have been a few moments on the bike recently where I've considered whether a camera of sorts is a good investment.

 

[TobyD]

Sobering statistics certainly. I wonder whether many of these collisions are to do with more cyclists, (unlikely, I doubt that there are more cyclists we all just notice them as there are so few cars) or increased carelessness by either drivers or cyclists, assuming the roads are empty. I've certainly seen quite a few cars going absurdly fast mainly within Sheffield, but some pretty dangerous behaviour from motorcycles, cyclists and pedestrians as well.

[TobyD]

Not climbers (I hope!) but looks like some utter fools out there

BBC News - Coronavirus: North Yorkshire day-trippers 'ignore' rules
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-52442573

[moose]

Sobering statistics certainly. I wonder whether many of these collisions are to do with more cyclists, (unlikely, I doubt that there are more cyclists we all just notice them as there are so few cars) or increased carelessness by either drivers or cyclists, assuming the roads are empty. I've certainly seen quite a few cars going absurdly fast mainly within Sheffield, but some pretty dangerous behaviour from motorcycles, cyclists and pedestrians as well.

N=1 but for weeks I've noticed an increasingly cavalier attitude from all parties re the risks of other road users.  Cyclists careering along in the middle of the road at high speeds have attracted most of my attention.  But there's probably a fair bit confirmation bias and envy in that observation - they're apparently in Strava paradise whilst I'm stuck with fingerboarding. 

I'm convinced there are also more pedestrians stepping out into the road without looking (and that includes me), and drivers treating the relatively clear roads as autobahns (not guilty - I charge by the hour for travel!).

[webbo]

There are a lot more cyclists out round where I live in East Yorkshire. The increase seems to be either new cyclists or returning ones.
How do I know this. Well watching them wobble all over the round, flat pedals or toe clips, pedalling  in a massive gear and from the clothing they are wearing. On some of the quiet minor roads some of these are riding all over the road as if there is not going to be any other traffic.
I nearly ran in to the back of two blokes when I was doing some intervals on a single track road. I shouted that I was coming up behind them, they just looked and continued riding two abreast. Fortunately there was enough of gap to get past.

[fatneck]

The Angling Trust have put together a really good proposal for Government about how fishing might start again. Would there be merit in the BMC doing something similar?