[Ged]

Re the Pirmin thing: yes he's made himself look a total prick in the way he has communicated his activities (Again. See also: whining when Ondra downgraded his route) But climbing locally with his wife on a quiet sector in the woods is perfectly ok under Bavarian lockdown rules & explicitly confirmed as such by the polizei.

[/quote]

I think it was probably the way he talked about it being justifiable because it is his "job", that irked me.  As though that makes it more justifiable for him than others.  My job is to try and teach uninterested teenags about Physics, but I'm not allowed to do it at the moment, even if the conditions are amazing.

On a slight tangent, and something which made me think he was even more of a nob, was the fact he was wearing a face mask.  Assuming it wasn;t for comic effect, to me it confirmed the dangers of using masks.  Seems liek one of those situations where people would blindly follow a rule, and thus throw all common sense out of the window, thus making the situation more dangerous than it otherwise would be.  Like the more likely to have a bike crash if wearing a helmet theory.  If you really think that wearing a mask negates the risks posed from driving away from where you live etc, you clearly don't understand what the risks really are, and how to negate them.

[SA Chris]

Hard to say if the mask is for effect, or if he thinks it's making any difference to spreading. Not sure what makes him a bigger knob.

[gme]

Much busier here this weekend but obviously in comparative terms. Must have passed 20-30 people on my normal dog walk where as I saw two this morning.
And I suggest there is actually more cyclists than I have ever seen. I talked to one lad who had a puncture outside my house and he was 40+ miles from home already and wasn’t heading back yet.

I am not in anyway having a go at the cyclist, the opposite in fact, he was having a great day out and I don’t feel causing any issues. Climbing (BMC) needs to start having a conversation as to why we should be allowed back out and start looking to get away from this self flagellation. 

[Bonjoy]

So we have argued, we have gone round in circles, its got a bit heated at times but generally people are not climbing.....
So as the curve flattens, as restrictions are vaguely lifted (interestingly in Germany there was no restrictions on climbing ) when do we feel it is ok to go out again? When travel is relaxed, when people are working again.....when ?

You'll know when that is easily enough. It'll start raining and not stop.

[Paul B]

Much busier here this weekend but obviously in comparative terms. Must have passed 20-30 people on my normal dog walk where as I saw two this morning.

Same here but but it was confined locally to the town and surrounding villages (i.e. most likely people doing entirely reasonable things), a few miles onto the moors and there wasn't a soul as per usual (I did have to laugh at the "Go home, stay home" sign next to a farm track; you couldn't see the farm or any other signs of civilisation from the road).

The Hangar recently posted this if it's of interest:
https://gym.vertical-life.info/articles/covid-19-risk-mitigation-in-climbing-gyms-setting-up-a-european-strategy?fbclid=IwAR2pyXTTfGZL5xz8h8pK3JtBqk0rHOGUu_b4-ntdQuNcFV1p9qqj74H4vfY

[SA Chris]

You'll know when that is easily enough. It'll start raining and not stop.

Plus we will get midges, haar and sea grease.

[Oldmanmatt]

Much busier here this weekend but obviously in comparative terms. Must have passed 20-30 people on my normal dog walk where as I saw two this morning.

Same here but but it was confined locally to the town and surrounding villages (i.e. most likely people doing entirely reasonable things), a few miles onto the moors and there wasn't a soul as per usual (I did have to laugh at the "Go home, stay home" sign next to a farm track; you couldn't see the farm or any other signs of civilisation from the road).

The Hangar recently posted this if it's of interest:
https://gym.vertical-life.info/articles/covid-19-risk-mitigation-in-climbing-gyms-setting-up-a-european-strategy?fbclid=IwAR2pyXTTfGZL5xz8h8pK3JtBqk0rHOGUu_b4-ntdQuNcFV1p9qqj74H4vfY

I nearly  posted that earlier, but it’s still a very early draft and is so contingent on the German faith that this is not spread through contact.
So, I wanted to read more before asking what people thought.

[Ru]

Climbing (BMC) needs to start having a conversation as to why we should be allowed back out and start looking to get away from this self flagellation.

To be fair on them, they are trying. I am in email conversation with the BMC who have been in contact with the police in England and Wales and various other organisations such as DEFRA. So far as I can see, every government organisation has a different interpretation of the law and or guidance, sometimes they have different interpretations within organisations.

[Stu Littlefair]

Who'd have thought that different people would have varying interpretations of what is "reasonable" and what constitutes a "need"? 

[gme]

Climbing (BMC) needs to start having a conversation as to why we should be allowed back out and start looking to get away from this self flagellation.

To be fair on them, they are trying. I am in email conversation with the BMC who have been in contact with the police in England and Wales and various other organisations such as DEFRA. So far as I can see, every government organisation has a different interpretation of the law and or guidance, sometimes they have different interpretations within organisations.

I wasnt having a go at the BMC, sorry if it came over like that. I was suggesting we (climbers) need to change our tone from finding reasons we cant go climbing and berating those who do, to an approach based on why we can go.  The BMC are just there as our voice.

I have had the same issue with work. We stopped immediately, analysed what we were being told and what we are doing and now this has been done are slowly returning to work where we can. Our approach to clients has gone from we cant come due to xyz to we can come due to xyz. This push has now been backed with statements from the HSE, the industry and the government.

I think climbers are in danger of talking ourselves into a longer lock down than is needed. With voluntary control measures in place i think we could be getting back out in 3-4 weeks and country's like Germany prove its possible. I know we are going back over old ground but despite what some might say cyclists are having a field day and the only thing that they have lost is going out in groups. I see little reason that this could not be true of climbing. Yes you might find the crag you wanted to go to is busy already so you have to go to another. Not to much to ask.

[SA Chris]

I think you underestimate people's propensity for stupidity. Can you see someone parking up, walking to Bowden, walking the length of the crag with a select guide, trying to find a route they can climb, while maintaining social distancing, going nah it's too crowded, packing up and driving up Kyloe In (or wherever) instead, and doing the same thing?

[Paul B]

despite what some might say cyclists are having a field day and the only thing that they have lost is going out in groups. I see little reason that this could not be true of climbing. Yes you might find the crag you wanted to go to is busy already so you have to go to another. Not to much to ask.

People just don't do this reliably.

I think you underestimate people's propensity for stupidity...

Last year at a crag local to me there was a group pf people there with their dogs. The access gate (which is never open) has a "no dogs sign" there's a sign concreted in about 10m from the climbing (again "no dogs") and when challenged responded that "Well I know that now, but I'm here, what do you expect me to do, leave?" (it was too hot to leave the dog in the car).

[abarro81]

But it will presumably be the case that we have to deal with this for the rest of 2020 at least. A month or two wont change that. So your alternative solution would just be not to climb outside for the whole of the year. Fuck that. There will need to be new norms, policed by the community, like bird bans, or hogging routes.

Presumably the new rule will be: if people are there and you'd be climbing within X metres of them, go elsewhere. There may be other rules around not climbing at certain venues with dodgy access, or not climbing if it makes life hard for walkers (e.g. the cornice may be problematic, as there's a path at the bottom of it), or not climbing on other people's draws... I think what gav is saying is that he hopes the BMC are working on providing answers to these questions - solutions that are workable, easily communicated, maximise safety without being absurdly restricted etc.. It will rely on people not being dicks, e.g. "I know you were here first but I'm going to climb anyway, so if you don't like it you'll need to leave". I imagine there will be some nasty arguments and public shaming, for better or worse. I imagine travelling to a crag a notable drive away will be risky, unless you have 10 good bail options planned out for if people are already there.

The alternative is that the BMC take the view that the only way to minimise stupidity is to say "no climbing until this is all over", which means 2021/2022? But if that's the case most serious climbers will just ignore them and the community will create its own rules, probably with more fighting, public shaming and shitstorms than if the BMC is involved. That being said, if the BMC stick to a "no climbing" rule keeps half the climbers away from the crags then maybe it will be worth it.

Climbing with lamps at night or getting up at 4am may be worthwhile to minimise chances of meeting people at the crag (at suitable venues obvs)

[Oldmanmatt]

But it will presumably be the case that we have to deal with this for the rest of 2020 at least. A month or two wont change that. So your alternative solution would just be not to climb outside for the whole of the year. Fuck that. There will need to be new norms, policed by the community, like bird bans, or hogging routes.

Presumably the new rule will be: if people are there and you'd be climbing within X metres of them, go elsewhere. There may be other rules around not climbing at certain venues with dodgy access, or not climbing if it makes life hard for walkers (e.g. the cornice may be problematic, as there's a path at the bottom of it), or not climbing on other people's draws... I think what gav is saying is that he hopes the BMC are working on providing answers to these questions - solutions that are workable, easily communicated, maximise safety without being absurdly restricted etc.. It will rely on people not being dicks, e.g. "I know you were here first but I'm going to climb anyway, so if you don't like it you'll need to leave". I imagine there will be some nasty arguments and public shaming, for better or worse. I imagine travelling to a crag a notable drive away will be risky, unless you have 10 good bail options planned out for if people are already there.

The alternative is that the BMC take the view that the only way to minimise stupidity is to say "no climbing until this is all over", which means 2021/2022? But if that's the case most serious climbers will just ignore them and the community will create its own rules, probably with more fighting, public shaming and shitstorms than if the BMC is involved. That being said, if the BMC stick to a "no climbing" rule keeps half the climbers away from the crags then maybe it will be worth it.

Climbing with lamps at night or getting up at 4am may be worthwhile to minimise chances of meeting people at the crag (at suitable venues obvs)

Wardens.

😱


Well, we’re going to have to learn to live with it, so maybe a “BMC volunteer crag warden” scheme?

Because, as you know, the British public so respect such things...

🤦🏻‍♂️

Kidding aside, there’s plenty of ways to make climbing work within the context of social distancing etc. All rely on people being sensible and cooperative.

This is about as likely as Andorra bagging all the Golds at the next Olympics (whenever that might be) and winning the World Cup, with their 5 a side team and a couple of ageing Nuns.

[abarro81]

No, not wardens, just people being told they're being dicks if they're being dicks. We all know that serious climbers aren't going to spend all of 2020 not going climbing, so coming up with sensible shit that works is a lot better than just saying fuck it, it wont work, we'd better just not climb. I appreciate that for half of the forum this doesn't matter because they don't go climbing that much anyway.

[gme]

despite what some might say cyclists are having a field day and the only thing that they have lost is going out in groups. I see little reason that this could not be true of climbing. Yes you might find the crag you wanted to go to is busy already so you have to go to another. Not to much to ask.

People just don't do this reliably.

I think you underestimate people's propensity for stupidity...

Whether this is true or not is not the point, what we need to be telling the government is that we can self regulate and then do our best to do so. Climbers are generally pretty good with a small minority who are dicks. Just needs a bit of self policing.

Could UKC/rockfax app be quickly adapted to allow people to log there arrival and departure at a crag so people can have an idea of whos there.

[Paul B]

So your alternative solution would just be not to climb outside for the whole of the year. Fuck that. There will need to be new norms, policed by the community, like bird bans, or hogging routes.

The...

Ignoring GME's quote fail, that doesn't sound too daft but I had a climber this morning ask me what the RAD is  .

[abarro81]

The...

Arbitrary. We both know it wont happen unless a lockdown stricter than this is in place for the whole year.

I think that suggestion would be too open to abuse - e.g. log  that you're there when you set off from home to discourage others from going. Plus doesn't work if no signal. Better to just treat every day as a sketchy conditions day where you might have to bail to somewhere else.

[SA Chris]

Could UKC/rockfax app be quickly adapted to allow people to log there arrival and departure at a crag so people can have an idea of whos there.

Possible, if you include route / problem they intend working on, duration of stay. Maybe book slots for your preferred routes? 

[gme]

So we are looking at ways that we could get out climbing again and you think that someone would actually lie that they were at a crag to stop others going? Do you think climbers are actually that low?

It would only be as a guide and might help people make a choice. People log there routes so not a big step further to log when they are there. They could also comment if others not on the app are.

I am just trying to think of ways to get us out again. I dont see it being a problem for me to be honest as i could just go now but would prefer it to be official as to not fuck off any access arrangements etc.

[abarro81]

So we are looking at ways that we could get out climbing again and you think that someone would actually lie that they were at a crag to stop others going? Do you think climbers are actually that low?

Yes, totally. I think just have the rule of "if you'd be within X metres of others then go elsewhere". Although obviously I'd still get up at 5am to get to the crag first "to stop others going"... if that makes me a bad person then I'll pray for forgiveness between attempts.

[SA Chris]

I am just trying to think of ways to get us out again. I dont see it being a problem for me to be honest as i could just go now but would prefer it to be official as to not fuck off any access arrangements etc.

It wouldn't be a problem for me either, but I just have a deep concern that if the BMC change to anything other than their current stance, the honeypot crags and mountains will be overrun on the first weekend we are "allowed out" and Stanage, Bowden, Snowdon and Ben Nevis (for example) will be overrun, along with Mountain Rescue etc being back to dealing with a massive influx.

[spidermonkey09]

I tend to agree with Alex that the status quo cannot hold for the rest of the year. Once people are allowed out at all people will start climbing again. I think the community policing thing is the best suggestion yet but will 100% lead to rows at the crag. Plenty will arrive and refuse to leave even if the crag is at capacity. Not convinced by a booking system as people just wont use it, will object to the principle or turn up on a whim. Has to be led by the community with a group telling someone their behaviour isnt on. Kilnsey parking farrago a few years back a good example of how this can work. BMC put a sign there but it was only people telling others off for parking in the wrong place that got the message across, and it seems to have sunk in.

[Paul B]

I tend to agree with Alex that the status quo cannot hold for the rest of the year.

This is why I pedantically corrected his language; I completely agree and I'm not suggesting it will or should just that people (myself included) can be complete morons at times.

[tomtom]

I’m amazed this is being discussed with intent as opposed to hypotheticals (as it appears to me at least). 

We are on course to be the worst affected country in Europe - quite possibly in the world per capita (once it’s over) and our ability to go outside to climb on rocks is that important? I fully expect us to have one of the longest lasting and multi peaked lockdowns going given how our totals are climbing and climbing. There’s a long long way to go yet.

If there’s a grand plan of what should be allowed to happen next - climbing on rocks is a surely a long long way down the list. And I’d argue rightly so.