[gme]

Gav - can I ask where its come from thats its fine to go surfing? A quick look on Devon and Cornwall police website and in the coranavirus q and a there is the question can I go surfing. It says no, please dont go surfing per the advice of surfing England.

Surf England Instagram page. 1st item.

[petejh]

Leaving aside the interesting philosophical argument underlying how we interpret lockdown guidelines, I'd like to point out that one man's highballing with no pads, risky surfing or downhill mtn biking, is another man's lawn-mowing..

....





Simon

[kac]

If you feel that it is nesessary that you do that Will its probably best that you do. There will always be special cases and I hope you have fun. Personally though as Liam has said please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others and awful as it is now I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss

[spidermonkey09]

Fair dos. I think most people are fundamentally decent, but given an inch will take a mile. Hence why I think the vast majority will adhere to the current guidance of don't drive, but if you allow it even a bit...its the thin end of the wedge! 

Think the point about access work is comparing apples with pears; much more likely that a tiny subsection of the population will behave sensitively/responsibly than the entire population.

[abarro81]

I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss

What would be different in your life about now vs a tighter lockdown? I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?

[Johnny Brown]

Everyone posting on here should probably required to post a google pin so we can check out the size of their house and garden, proximity to green space etc. And declare any additional factors like kids, garage boards etc!

My point is, and has always been, that trying to suggest that no-one drives out to the countryside is the only way to stop everyone from doing so. I know you think otherwise, but (with respect), you are definitely putting too much faith in people. Two weekends ago, the government advice was not to go out if you didn't absolutely have to. And yet the national parks were rammed with people having a jolly in the Sun.

I don't want to keep repeating myself either. It was early on, the message was vague and had not been transmitted effectively, and it coincided what is often the busiest weekend of the year. I'm afraid I will keep putting faith in people. If people like me didn't argue for it you'd have lost climbing access to Cheedale years ago.

I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?

Increasing correlation appearing here between indoor aerocap enthusiasts endorsing tighter controls. It's a pretty big deal! Already had a meltdown this am from JB Junior not wanting to go to the park AGAIN!

[Will Hunt]

So if the police are looking to national sporting bodies for guidance on niche sports, have the BMC shafted us a bit by issuing a decree that no climbing should take place whatsoever? The BMC includes indoor climbing within the umbrella of climbing activities, so does that mean my board is out (OK, I'm being a bit facetious there)?

If you feel that it is nesessary that you do that Will its probably best that you do. There will always be special cases and I hope you have fun. Personally though as Liam has said please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others and awful as it is now I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss

The sarcastic tone tells me that your post is really just trying to shame and proves my point about this being more an exercise in self-punishment. Why not actually look at what the government's guidance/legislation is? You can go out to exercise if you are staying local and not driving! This is not taking the piss, it is complying with the rules.




Adam, I do think that if you lived a few minutes drive further, or even ( ) on the east of Sheffield, you would still be arguing that you were local. Jim has a point. I consider myself a "local" in Yorkshire, but it still takes me 40 mins to drive to Brimham. Personally I think that "local" in this context is trying to get people to stop using their cars.

[jwi]

I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss

What would be different in your life about now vs a tighter lockdown? I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?

As I alluded a few pages back, Chinese experts think that the lock-down in Italy is and has been too lax.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-home-quarantine-repeats-mistake-made-in-china-doctors-say

In short, people should not self-isolate with their families, but rather at isolation centers. People with covid-19 almost surely give the virus to their family-memebers who are often asymptomatic and happily goes to the supermarket and infect tons of others.

Lots of people with symptoms also finds it very inconvenient to stay at home, so they do not. They walk the dog, go shopping etc daily.

A stricter lock-down means to isolate everyone with symptoms.

[petejh]

As I alluded a few pages back, Chinese experts think that the lock-down in Italy is and has been too lax.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-home-quarantine-repeats-mistake-made-in-china-doctors-say

One side of me thinks: 'they would do wouldn't they - they're from China, a dictatorship from the pages of an Orwell novel'

Other sides of me think they're probably correct.
But then the Spectator columnist side of me ( ) wonders what value liberty versus altruism.

I think it's valuable to consider all sides of the argument.

JB I definitely think you have too much faith in humanity. But also that this is a good trait in 99% of life.

[mrjonathanr]

The one thing we need above all else jwi, is something we don’t have: extensive testing capacity.

I don’t get it, tbh. We (uk gov) have known of the pandemic potential since late January. WHO propose test, quarantine, contact trace, test -and repeat. S Korea and similar countries have had good results this way. It is clearly the best way to allow economic activity to continue. Yet we are scrambling for adequate testing capacity and 9 weeks later, still don’t have it. 

[spidermonkey09]

Everyone posting on here should probably required to post a google pin so we can check out the size of their house and garden, proximity to green space etc. And declare any additional factors like kids, garage boards etc!

Inner city Leicester, terrace, no board, small yard. I plead guilty to not having children and totally get that entertaining them is the devils work; as such I sympathise with those attempting it.

[Johnny Brown]

Adam, I do think that if you lived a few minutes drive further,

A few minutes more is not forty. Yes, I think people living in flats around the city centre should be encouraged to get fresh air if they can. No I don't think people should be driving over from the other side of town, go to RVCP or somewhere local.

As it is I'm not driving except to the supermarket once a week, but I think it's a facile approach that's being dictated by the disapproval of you lot. I do intend to walk out to Stanage soon, though not to climb. If the sun comes back out I might cycle out.

Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.

[JohnM]

I think one of the issues is that a lot of (mainly) younger people have mild symptoms so they go to the supermarket to get food for themselves/their family. I have a friend in London who complained about a cough/fever for a couple of days and then in a group Facetime mentioned that he had gone to Sainsbury's because they had run out of Hummus. He got rightly flamed by everybody, but still couldn't see that what he did was stupid and that even though he was well enough to go to the supermarket, someone more vulnerable may have caught it off him. I imagine there are a lot of people like that though.

[tomtom]

If you feel that it is nesessary that you do that Will its probably best that you do. There will always be special cases and I hope you have fun. Personally though as Liam has said please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others and awful as it is now I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss

The sarcastic tone tells me that your post is really just trying to shame and proves my point about this being more an exercise in self-punishment. Why not actually look at what the government's guidance/legislation is? You can go out to exercise if you are staying local and not driving! This is not taking the piss, it is complying with the rules.

Easy Will - that seems a fair enough thing to say to me...

[SA Chris]

As I alluded a few pages back, Chinese experts think that the lock-down in Italy is and has been too lax.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-home-quarantine-repeats-mistake-made-in-china-doctors-say

In short, people should not self-isolate with their families, but rather at isolation centers. People with covid-19 almost surely give the virus to their family-members who are often asymptomatic and happily goes to the supermarket and infect tons of others.

Lots of people with symptoms also finds it very inconvenient to stay at home, so they do not. They walk the dog, go shopping etc daily.

A stricter lock-down means to isolate everyone with symptoms.

I did read the article earlier and thought it an interesting point. So should everyone with symptoms have to go to a designated hotel and live together? For how long? An what if you are asymptomatic, but give it to your kids who then show symptoms? Is it a guess as to which parent transferred it? I see the argument, but I think it would be very hard to implement .

[Duma]

Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.

This really is the key as far as I can tell, people saying we can't do what China has, what about S Korea? Similar pop to large European nations, half the area, democratic and still have very successfully contained the outbreak. The lack of test and trace early is a scandal that must not be allowed to be brushed under the carpet.

[tomtom]

Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.

This really is the key as far as I can tell, people saying we can't do what China has, what about S Korea? Similar pop to large European nations, half the area, democratic and still have very successfully contained the outbreak. The lack of test and trace early is a scandal that must not be allowed to be brushed under the carpet.

And Germany....

[abarro81]

I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?

Increasing correlation appearing here between indoor aerocap enthusiasts endorsing tighter controls. It's a pretty big deal! Already had a meltdown this am from JB Junior not wanting to go to the park AGAIN!

I can't really aerocap at the moment because we don't have a board, and don't have space for a board big enough to aerocap on. Neither was I endorsing stricter controls, just surprised by the strength of the wording that kac "dreads" a stricter lockdown. It's a big deal for you, but not for me. Other things will be a big deal for others/me, but not for you.

Personally, I think others are right about people pushing it, and the influence of what is considered normal/acceptable. If 10 min to get to the peak is legit then that will, IMO, soon become 15 or 20 min. If the peak looks busy with walkers every day then I will be likely to break and go climbing sooner than if it's not. If I'm going climbing then that will make others think it's ok to go climbing. If everyone's climbing locally I'll be tempted to fit in the odd trip to spots further afield... And whilst I'm an easily influenced tw*t, I'd wager I'm a lot less of a tw*t than a lot of the GB population.

Dislosures: large house, small garden (enough to skip in just about, so long as the plants are kept trimmed), no kids.

Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.

Chinese-style lockdown didn't use those measures instead of our lockdown, they used them on top of a lockdown that was stricter than ours (e.g. no going out except one household member to shop once every 3 days IIRC)

[kac]

For disclosure JB I dont understand what aerocap is, don't have a homeboard, do have a fairly nice garden and do have have a toddler obsessed with going to the park. I get the meltdowns if he can't go. I also have a dad with cancer who is on the extremely vulnerable list.

Gav that surf page is intersting and its clear lots of sports are having a similar debate. On the same page is says "the message is clear dont go surfing'. They are also clear that the message is stay safe, stay homes and save lives.  im sure its an evolving situation so we shall see where it goes. To be clear I dont want tigher restrictions and do want to climb asap

[Will Hunt]

Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.

The problem with this statement is that you have no data. I suspect there is some truth in what you're saying, and I did allude to it a few posts back, but we here cannot say that the net detriment to the nation's health from a lockdown will definitely outweigh the benefit in stopping the spread of CV-19. I suspect that somebody in government has done some work on this - hence the allowance to get out and exercise once a day (not twice a day, not once every 2 days, not once a week).

If you feel that it is nesessary that you do that Will its probably best that you do. There will always be special cases and I hope you have fun. Personally though as Liam has said please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others and awful as it is now I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss

The sarcastic tone tells me that your post is really just trying to shame and proves my point about this being more an exercise in self-punishment. Why not actually look at what the government's guidance/legislation is? You can go out to exercise if you are staying local and not driving! This is not taking the piss, it is complying with the rules.

Easy Will - that seems a fair enough thing to say to me...

My specific objections are as follows:
"If you feel that it is nesessary" - the government guidance does not require exercise to be necessary (how much exercise is really "necessary".
"There will always be special cases" - The implication is that I believe myself to be a special case. This is insulting and not the case. Anybody could follow the same rules. i.e. walk somewhere local, climb rock that gets virtually no traffic, wash your hands before and after (Fiend mentioned a flask of warm soapy water; repeat when you get home), keep it low or make up some ridiculous eliminate traverses.
"please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others" - I'm not planning on spraying about anything. And given that we've had some 20-odd pages of discussion about what is and isn't OK, I don't think that me reporting I'd been somewhere local and within the guidance would then prompt everyone to leap into their cars and drive for hours to go climbing.
"I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss" - foreblaming any tighter lockdown on people who are obeying the government guidance. We probably will have a tighter lockdown and it'll probably be because a) people like JohnM's mate were foolish and irresponsible, and b) the government's guidelines didn't put strong enough controls on workplaces. But let's not let that get in the way of shaming people who want to go out and exercise, eh? There's also the accusation that I'm taking the piss, which is clearly not the case.

As I alluded a few pages back, Chinese experts think that the lock-down in Italy is and has been too lax.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-home-quarantine-repeats-mistake-made-in-china-doctors-say

In short, people should not self-isolate with their families, but rather at isolation centers. People with covid-19 almost surely give the virus to their family-members who are often asymptomatic and happily goes to the supermarket and infect tons of others.

Lots of people with symptoms also finds it very inconvenient to stay at home, so they do not. They walk the dog, go shopping etc daily.

A stricter lock-down means to isolate everyone with symptoms.

I did read the article earlier and thought it an interesting point. So should everyone with symptoms have to go to a designated hotel and live together? For how long? An what if you are asymptomatic, but give it to your kids who then show symptoms? Is it a guess as to which parent transferred it? I see the argument, but I think it would be very hard to implement .

Chris, these questions are covered in the guidance. As soon as someone in your home shows symptoms they isolate for 7 days, everyone else isolates for 14 days. More info is available.

[Offwidth]

I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss

What would be different in your life about now vs a tighter lockdown? I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?

The thing I would worry about most is the impact on law and policing and individually on the most vulnerable who are frightened.  If nearly all people follow the rules, it won't be needed.

Climbers and hillwalkers should think about how their outdoor interests might be viewed by the public and police. Unlike Will I think the BMC have acted almost perfectly on this... any pushing back in the lockdown could have been damaging public and political opinion, that we might well need when this is all over. People should read Elfyn's plea again last Sunday evening, and the wide scope on which it was based. The BMC is still running but from individual homes of staff and volunteers. If you care about things like the future of access, given the inevitable financial pressures on the organisation, there has never been a better time for non-members to join.

[Johnny Brown]

Agree with that Will, although the regs do NOT state once a day, except l in Wales. No restrictions on how often and for as long. Ministers have said 'once' often, and also for as long as you do normally.

[SA Chris]

Gav that surf page is intersting and its clear lots of sports are having a similar debate. On the same page is says "the message is clear dont go surfing'. They are also clear that the message is stay safe, stay homes and save lives.  im sure its an evolving situation so we shall see where it goes. To be clear I dont want tigher restrictions and do want to climb asap

Read it as updated info on a certain date that now conflicts with earlier info on an older date. Not that I agree with it.

[kac]

The guidance says you can leave the house for one form of exercise a day. Gove on the Marr show on Sunday suggested people use common sense - he suggested a run for 30 min or a cycle ride of up to an hour

[tomtom]